What would you call a near miss, or close call?

[John Baker]

On Friday I was at 6,500' on a heading of 185. A Cirrus was on a heading, I would guess less than 360. We were both at about the same altitude. I spotted him probably about one mile ahead of me. Within seconds, he passed me a few hundred yards off my left wing. I got to thinking, had we been on a collision course, impact would have occurred before either of us could have reacted. It was over very fast.

The book says if you see an aircraft ahead of you, that does not seem to be moving, you are on a collision course and you should give way to the right.

Had he been ahead of me, he would have presented a very small profile approaching head on. Determining that he was not appearing to move would just possibly have caused either one of us to be way to late to react.

The news media gets all excited about big iron passing within a few miles of each other, and refer to it as a near miss, or a very close call.

In sailboat racing, if boats pass within a few inches of each other, it might just as well been a mile. If the boats don't hit, it doesn't count.

So here is my question. What would be considered a near miss or close call between small G A aircraft flying at training levels or in "Indian country"? Actually, for that matter, at any altitude?

John

 

[kyleb]

Anything under a couple hundred yards laterally or a couple of hundred feet vertically is very close IMO. I've probably had 3 or 4 of those in 1,000 hours of VFR flying.

 

[Jack Spectre]

I had one that would have passed pretty close it it hadn't been for an eagle-eyed passenger, who saw it slightly behind and to the left of me, overtaking. I descended 200 feet or so and watched him fly right over me at a safe distance. This is why I always recruit passengers to watch for traffic.

 

[wabower]

Carlin always said they weren't "near misses" they were "near hits."

 

[AdamZ]

I can't really give a definition involving distance but I guess the best thing I can offer is if I say something to the effect of WHOA! or OH SHIZZLE then its a near miss.

 

[roncachamp]

On Friday I was at 6,500' on a heading of 185. A Cirrus was on a heading, I would guess less than 360. We were both at about the same altitude. I spotted him probably about one mile ahead of me. Within seconds, he passed me a few hundred yards off my left wing. I got to thinking, had we been on a collision course, impact would have occurred before either of us could have reacted. It was over very fast.

What was your course?

 

[Jack Spectre]

What was your course?

I hope it wasn't 179°!

 

[John Baker]

What was your course?

No wind correction angle, course and heading was 185.

I was north and slightly east of KRNM (Ramona)

John

 

[bqmassey]

A Cirrus was on a heading, I would guess less than 360.

Well that really narrows it down.

 

[AuntPeggy]

My rule of thumb in flight is, if I can see the other aircraft's tires, we are too close. Or, on the other hand, if I can see that the other aircraft has retracted their gear, same thing.

 

[roncachamp]

My rule of thumb in flight is, if I can see the other aircraft's tires, we are too close. Or, on the other hand, if I can see that the other aircraft has retracted their gear, same thing.

What about a straight floatplane?

 

[AuntPeggy]

What about a straight floatplane?

Hmmm. Never considered that. Maybe I can come up with something.

 

[Ted]

Hmm... so this guy was too close?

I like Adam's definition. If you're doing formation flight, you might be very close to the other person, but it's intentional and more controlled. If my blood pressure raises, then it's too close.

 

[gismo]

If I'm startled it was too close. Another indicator is how rapidly the other plane seems to change from something barely recognizable as an airplane to something up close and personal. It's amazing how fast this happens with a closure rate of 250+ mph (which is slower than two 172s head on in cruise).

 

[fgcason]

Hmmm. Never considered that. Maybe I can come up with something.

If you can see the spreader bar...


IMO, the distance for too close is variable. The distance limit is fairly close when going the same direction and gets further and further apart as the closure angle goes from 0 to 180 degrees. It's a nonlinear curve once the angle goes beyond about 90 degrees.

 

[John Baker]

Well that really narrows it down.

How about this: I think we were both observing the hemispheric rule correctly. I am still new enough at this to get heading and course mixed up now and then. It really was pretty calm air, so I think I did a great job of weaseling out of that one with you guys. I'm very proud of myself.

I think the point of my thread was to get feedback from all of you much more experienced aviators about close calls you may have had, what you consider a close call, how you may have handled them, and so on. You know, like picking your brains on an air safety issue.

I have to say this, being a member of this board, just by reading, I am learning a lot. My biggest weakness is the spin zone, I gotta try and stay away from there. I keep getting myself into close call situations, like in being banned forever.

John

 

[rottydaddy]

The book says if you see an aircraft ahead of you, that does not seem to be moving, you are on a collision course and you should give way to the right.

As is often the case with such books, that doesn't tell the whole story.
They don't have to be ahead of you... in fact, head-on midairs are extremely rare. Midairs where either pilot sees the other must be pretty rare, when you think about it. AFAIK, most (witnessed) midairs involve aircraft converging from the rear or sides- one overtaking the other, often with one or both aircraft turning, climbing or descending.

Had he been ahead of me, he would have presented a very small profile approaching head on. Determining that he was not appearing to move would just possibly have caused either one of us to be way to late to react.

Technically true... you may not have a lot of time to ponder the situation. But the time to decide what to do about traffic is the moment you see it. Unless it's immediately obvious they are moving in any direction in your field of view (which means you are not converging at the moment), you should make some small change in altitude or heading, preferably one that allows you to keep an eye on said traffic (in case they change heading or alt and start converging).
Just be sure to look where you're going if you are about to turn away... there might be another one, LOL.

So here is my question. What would be considered a near miss or close call between small G A aircraft flying at training levels or in "Indian country"? Actually, for that matter, at any altitude?

It pays to have your own rule about this; I put this question (in terms of Part 91 ops) in the same category as questions about crosswinds, etc. To quote Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations."

My rule about "near- misses" is pretty simple. If I think, "Boy, am I glad I saw that traffic when I did, and not a second later!" then it was a close call.

I've never thought that in cruise, oddly enough... it's only happened in the pattern. Two of the three times it was in the pattern at a tower-controlled field, with the tower in operation.
Which leads to the second part of my rule: it can happen anywhere, anytime.

 

[gismo]

How about this: I think we were both observing the hemispheric rule correctly. I am still new enough at this to get heading and course mixed up now and then. It really was pretty calm air, so I think I did a great job of weaseling out of that one with you guys. I'm very proud of myself.

I think the point of my thread was to get feedback from all of you much more experienced aviators about close calls you may have had, what you consider a close call, how you may have handled them, and so on. You know, like picking your brains on an air safety issue.

I have to say this, being a member of this board, just by reading, I am learning a lot. My biggest weakness is the spin zone, I gotta try and stay away from there. I keep getting myself into close call situations, like in being banned forever.

John

The hemispheric altitude rule is worse than useless when heading nearly north or south. I think Richard Bach summed it up well when he wrote something like: "merely limits all mid air collisions to angles of less than 180 degrees". Note that 179 degrees is less than 180.

 

[wabower]

Like the day I was enroute from KC to Dallas at 10.5k', talking to center, autopilot engaged. About halfass paying attention and looking outside from time to time but not a candidate for the "head-on-a-swivel-eyes-like-a-hawk" award for that particular day.

Looked up to see a great big yellow turbine cropduster crossing just ahead at my altitude. Obviously no TXP and probably flying high for fuel economy during ferry flight.

Shizzle was closer to something I did rather than something I said.

I can't really give a definition involving distance but I guess the best thing I can offer is if I say something to the effect of WHOA! or OH SHIZZLE then its a near miss.

 

[Alice R]

The news media gets all excited about big iron passing within a few miles of each other, and refer to it as a near miss, or a very close call.

In sailboat racing, if boats pass within a few inches of each other, it might just as well been a mile. If the boats don't hit, it doesn't count.

So here is my question. What would be considered a near miss or close call between small G A aircraft flying at training levels or in "Indian country"? Actually, for that matter, at any altitude?

John

I probably wont answer your question but hopefully give you something to think about . A close call is in the eye of the beholder and I think most pilots would base it on the amount of time you have to react and avoid a collision . To expand on your heavy iron comment , take a look at how TCAS works . It will show all kinds of Proximate traffic , but it will only alert you to traffic that is within X seconds of closest approach . In other words , the unit is measuring closure rates and not just physical distance ( And at the speeds big iron operates you can see why 1000 Vert. or 1/2 mile hor. makes the news ) . So my answer would be , a few seconds is too close .

 

[Jay Honeck]

I had one that would have passed pretty close it it hadn't been for an eagle-eyed passenger, who saw it slightly behind and to the left of me, overtaking. I descended 200 feet or so and watched him fly right over me at a safe distance. This is why I always recruit passengers to watch for traffic.

Wow. It's not every day that anyone spots traffic BEHIND you. Your passenger must've had his head on a swivel!

The one time I've *ever* snatched the controls from Mary (my wife) was when we were in the pattern on a cold winter's day ten years ago. She was turning downwind-to-base when I glanced over at her and saw a beautiful white Stinson coming at us through the left-rear passenger window!

I banked hard right, the Stinson missed us (he was NORDO, of course) and we never saw him again. I'd have had a chat with him, but he didn't land.

It's amazing how we can be so small, and the sky so big -- yet come so close to each other. Of course, this happened in the pattern, but we had another close call at 10,500 feet over South Dakota, of all places -- so it can happen anywhere.

 

[Matthew]

I guess my criteria is - if I am surprised and have to take evasive manuevers, then it's a 'close call' or 'near miss'. Otherwise I'd put it as 'too close for comfort, do something about it'.

Only 2 times I'm aware of when I've had the 'close call' - one time on downwind and another plane decided to make a midfield entry to downwind and cut in front of me close enough that I had to avoid him. The other time was when I was training in IMC and another A/C was VFR in VMC just outside the clouds. My CFII and I might very well have t-boned him by shooting out of the cloud we were in if the controller had not yelled at us "TRAFFIC ALERT - ONE O'CLOCK" - I remember seeing rivets as we popped out the side of the cloud before we turned back into it. Respect those VFR cloud clearances!!!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

As is often the case with such books, that doesn't tell the whole story.
They don't have to be ahead of you... in fact, head-on midairs are extremely rare. Midairs where either pilot sees the other must be pretty rare, when you think about it. AFAIK, most (witnessed) midairs involve aircraft converging from the rear or sides- one overtaking the other, often with one or both aircraft turning, climbing or descending.

It makes sense that direct head on someone is more likely to be sitting there looking straight ahead. But someone who is at 4:00 or so...

http://www.zaon.aero/content/view/2/41/

 

[bqmassey]

How about this: I think we were both observing the hemispheric rule correctly. I am still new enough at this to get heading and course mixed up now and then. It really was pretty calm air, so I think I did a great job of weaseling out of that one with you guys. I'm very proud of myself.

I think the point of my thread was to get feedback from all of you much more experienced aviators about close calls you may have had, what you consider a close call, how you may have handled them, and so on. You know, like picking your brains on an air safety issue.

I have to say this, being a member of this board, just by reading, I am learning a lot. My biggest weakness is the spin zone, I gotta try and stay away from there. I keep getting myself into close call situations, like in being banned forever.

John

I was just joking around. Technically every other possible heading (1-359) is less than 360.

Thanks for putting this up though. It's definitely a good thing to be reminded that these kinds of things, and worse, can happen if you're not vigilant in your obligations as a pilot.

 

[Jack Spectre]

Wow. It's not every day that anyone spots traffic BEHIND you. Your passenger must've had his head on a swivel!

It was my brother who is an aviation buff and flies with me often. He's always looking for traffic. There's a good chance I would have seen the other plane in time but his warning gave me plenty of time to move to a safe altitude. I bought him lunch and a beer.

 

[bluesky74656]

I've never thought that in cruise, oddly enough... it's only happened in the pattern. Two of the three times it was in the pattern at a tower-controlled field, with the tower in operation.
Which leads to the second part of my rule: it can happen anywhere, anytime.

It's happened to me twice, and neither were in the pattern. Once I was following a highway and a twin came from behind and above. The second time I was down below 3000 to stay out of a nasty headwind and found myself head to head with another plane. I was staring into the sun, so he saw me first and broke to his left. I didn't see him until his wing popped up, at which point I made a rather enthusiastic left turn.

 

[weirdjim]

So here is my question. What would be considered a near miss or close call between small G A aircraft flying at training levels or in "Indian country"? Actually, for that matter, at any altitude?

John

Just once in 5000 hours...at Oshkosh...in the traffic flow procedure...and the &^%$%^& tower vectored a flight of warbirds directly through the downwind. I still remember thinking that if I was flying the lead airplane in the warbird formation I'd replace the right main because it was nearly showing cord.

Wrote the tower chief and never even got the courtesy of a reply. THere were two CFIs in that airplane and both of us testified in the letter to exactly what happened. So much for FAA responsiveness.

Jim

 

[Fearless Tower]

I would venture to say that you don't necessarily have to see them for it to be too close.

Too close for me was when the Socal Approach controller started to freak out on the radio - Night IMC Arrival to MYF at the end of a ncie quiet flight from PRC. Controller gives me the final vector and clears me for the ILS 28R into MYF. Maybe 15 seconds later he comes back on the freq in a VERY excited voice and tells me to do a right 90 degree turn immediately! Apparently a 737 had just launched for SAN, was already heading my way, but hadn't established comms with Departure yet. Solid IMC, so I have no clue how close we may have come, but the sound of that controllers voice was not comforting to say the least!

 

[John Baker]

My first one was with my instructor flying into KSEE in San Diego. We were on final about a mile and a half out when it started. I guess I should back up a little. After we had received the ATIS and tuned in the CT, we listened while they were trying to get some fellow with a British accent straightened out. Apparently he was doing all the wrong things and CT sounded somewhat upset with him.

Anyway, we made contact and entered on a left base for 27R, as per instructions. We turned final and tower, still yelling orders to the Englishman, tells us to go around. I climbed up to pattern altitude, just to the right of 27 R, which is a right pattern runway in the daytime. The tower is getting all worked up with the Englishman, and starts yelling at him to turn left. We of course, are looking all over for the guy when I look down at the ground. I see two shadows on the ground, our plane and the Englishman, the shadows looked like they were almost touching. He was either right above us, or right below us, I never figured it out. We continued on and turned right pattern at the normal crosswind and went around an landed normally. Meanwhile the tower was demanding that the Englishman land immediately, which he seemed to be ignoring.

We shut down at the tower base and went in to get lunch at the restaurant. We saw the Englishman finally land, never did find out any more about it. I know he had an awful lot of splaining to do.

John

 

[rottydaddy]

Apparently a 737 had just launched for SAN, was already heading my way, but hadn't established comms with Departure yet. Solid IMC, so I have no clue how close we may have come, but the sound of that controllers voice was not comforting to say the least!

When that voice is all you have to fend off other traffic, that must not be a very good thing at all.

 

[DutchessFlier]

Todd: Just for my information, and certainly not a critique, shouldn't he have broken to the right, so that you can then break right as well? I realize that if he breaks left, then you have no choice to go opposite of him.

All of my close calls have been in the pattern of an uncontrolled airport following the standard procedures and having another pilot ignoring them. One time I was inbound on the 45, doing all of my calls, just about to establish a left downwind at TPA and a joker came across the departure end of the active from the other side of the airport and cut in front of my plane about 150 ft above and 500 ft in front of my position. My expectation was that he would fly outbound, circle around behind me and set up the proper entry. I got on the radio, and announced that I was established. It was a classic situation of my high wing blocking him from my view until he was in front of me. I broke the entry off turned out and reset. When I landed, he came over to me all bent outta shape...that I should have seen him and on and on. I told him to read up on standard entry procedures, why would you fly across the departure end of an active runway, and how about announcing his position and intentions, and which aircraft has the ROW...didn't make any difference to him. I was pretty upset since my daughter was flying with me at the time.

This and a few other times when I couldn't see traffic enroute ( controller: target, unknown type, 2 miles, your altitude, heading ... ) convinced me of 2 things: I always fly with flight following and I installed a TIS capable transponder which shows the encoded traffic on my 430. I still swivel my neck as much as possible. I also feel so much more comfortable when I am flying with another person in the plane doing traffic duty.

 

[dmccormack]

All of my close calls have been in the pattern of an uncontrolled airport following the standard procedures and having another pilot ignoring them.

Same here.

I've had one Falcon pop out of nowhere (I was IFR and I guess he wasn't -- I queried Center and they said "Yeah, I just saw him too..."), and a few "Oh look! There's another airplane!" while flying local, but the really scary times have been entering a pattern using standard methods only to be chased away by some ###### blasting in on a 5 mile downwind, "overhead break," or some such other nonsense.

 

[bluesky74656]

Todd: Just for my information, and certainly not a critique, shouldn't he have broken to the right, so that you can then break right as well? I realize that if he breaks left, then you have no choice to go opposite of him.

You're absolutely right.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Todd: Just for my information, and certainly not a critique, shouldn't he have broken to the right, so that you can then break right as well?

Not if breaking right would put you right into the path of the other aircraft which likely will not react at all...

 

[DutchessFlier]

Geoff: Absolutely! Thats why I also said in my response that if the other bozo breaks left you have no choice but to break left as well...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Of course, this happened in the pattern, but we had another close call at 10,500 feet over South Dakota, of all places -- so it can happen anywhere.

Yup - One of my closest calls was on the way to 6Y9, with nothing but trees and then a suddenly-large Cessna in sight. Luckily I'd spotted him early enough that if evasive action had been necessary it would have been possible, but he still passed about 100 feet in front of us... Hello! I'm not sure if Kate ever saw him.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Only 2 times I'm aware of when I've had the 'close call' - one time on downwind and another plane decided to make a midfield entry to downwind and cut in front of me close enough that I had to avoid him

But... I though that the midfield 45 was perfectly safe?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Too close for me was when the Socal Approach controller started to freak out on the radio - Night IMC Arrival to MYF at the end of a ncie quiet flight from PRC. Controller gives me the final vector and clears me for the ILS 28R into MYF. Maybe 15 seconds later he comes back on the freq in a VERY excited voice and tells me to do a right 90 degree turn immediately! Apparently a 737 had just launched for SAN, was already heading my way, but hadn't established comms with Departure yet. Solid IMC, so I have no clue how close we may have come, but the sound of that controllers voice was not comforting to say the least!

Sometimes, you hear the alarm on the controller's scope going off when they give a traffic warning. It's usually the "heads up" alarm. A couple times, I've heard it get to the "oh ****" alarm, which is an octave higher and seems to bring the controller's voice up an octave too!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

All of my close calls have been in the pattern of an uncontrolled airport following the standard procedures and having another pilot ignoring them.

Since they're not mandatory, I don't think you can reasonably say that someone was "ignoring" them.

One time I was inbound on the 45, doing all of my calls, just about to establish a left downwind at TPA and a joker came across the departure end of the active from the other side of the airport and cut in front of my plane about 150 ft above and 500 ft in front of my position.

Joker? And if he cut in front of you, that would seem to indicate that it was a midfield crosswind, unless your 45 wasn't at midfield. Believe it or not, that is the standard pattern entry in Canada (and legally required there, IIRC), and it is perfectly safe and legal here too.

My expectation was that he would fly outbound, circle around behind me and set up the proper entry.

Sounds like you assumed, and we all know what they say about assumptions...

I broke the entry off turned out and reset. When I landed, he came over to me all bent outta shape...that I should have seen him and on and on.

You should have seen him, and he should have seen you. And he also should have been listening/talking on the radio, if properly equipped - But again, not mandatory.

I told him to read up on standard entry procedures,

Which aren't required and you should not expect anyone to be doing until they're actually doing it...

why would you fly across the departure end of an active runway,

At TPA? So that you can see departing traffic easier, though this is more applicable to us high-wingers.

Watch everywhere, expect nothing, don't be "pattern police."