What would you buy?

[TexasAviation]

OK, brace yourselves: here comes another "what plane should I buy" thread.


Here's my situation:

— I just got my PPL on Thursday.


— I'm a member of an awesome flying club where I can rent a well-maintained, well-equipped Archer for $90/hour (GPS, autopilot, etc.)


— I'm married with three kids, ages 5-11. I'd love a plane that could hold all five of us, but I don't like the idea of paying for a plane to hold 5-6 people.


— My typical missions will be 70-80% flying alone for business or with a friend or two, and (if I had a plane that held all of us) I'm guessing 20-30% family trips for fun.


— I like the idea of having a six-seat plane (Cherokee Six, Bonanza 36, Cessna 206 or 210) ... but again, I don't like the idea of paying for that. The higher insurance, maintenance, fuel burn, etc. would seriously bug me when 70-80% of the time I don't need a six-seat plane.



— I like Mooneys. I've never even flown one, but I like the way they look, the way they sound, and especially the way they go fast for the fuel burn. Plus they're native Texans, like me!


— I'm also open to the idea of buying something relatively simple and inexpensive to own/operate, like a Cherokee or Cessna 172. I could fly the club's Archer for cross-countries, and I'd have my own little plane for other times (local sightseeing, or cross-countries when the Archer is unavailable).


I'd be paying cash for the plane. I'd be comfortable paying $20k for a plane now, or saving up a special "airplane fund" for it and having $35k by summertime, $50-60k in a year, $80-$100k in a couple of years, etc.



So basically, I've got lots of options, from just renting to saving up for a $100k+ Bonanza down the road.


What would you do?

 

[ClimbnSink]

You either need a cub or similar or a six seater. Everything in between is covered by the club plane. Ask yourself will the whole family fly with you and how often.

 

[coloradobluesky]

You better get some more experience before you go hauling all those kids and wives around...

 

[warthog1984]

Rent until the first time you scream in rage that the club plane isn't available/airworthy/big enough/fast enough/updated enough.

Than start looking for what fits your mission as actually flown.

 

[brian]]

Rent until the first time you scream in rage that the club plane isn't available/airworthy/big enough/fast enough/updated enough.

Than start looking for what fits your mission as actually flown.

Yep - this is what I did...

 

[Stewartb]

A 172. Easy to afford, a good tool for a new pilot and it'll do most of what you want, and when it's time to move up it'll be easy to sell.

 

[Tom-D]

— I'm also open to the idea of buying something relatively simple and inexpensive to own/operate, like a Cherokee or Cessna 172.

Well here ya go.. it's 10 grand, yes it has a high timed engine, but good paint and interior, adequate radios.

Want cheap, cheap to own cheap to insure, cheap to fly?

With your 20k you'd already have a 10k maintenance fund

call Tony at 1-828.406.6459 be nice, do it in the day time N.C. time that is.

 

[Henning]

Can you buy the A-36/PA-32 and incorporate it into the club? Use the Archer on the solo runs, take the family in the Bonanza? Other club members keep the Bonanza flying and you get to split the costs with the club?

It sounds like you need a six seat plane but you can't afford to own it solo. The best answer is a share use/shared cost situation. Maybe just find one partner...

 

[SmashTime]

Buy my cherokee 235

 

[Tom-D]

Can you buy the A-36/PA-32 and incorporate it into the club? Use the Archer on the solo runs, take the family in the Bonanza? Other club members keep the Bonanza flying and you get to split the costs with the club?

IOWs you do not understand what renters do to high horse power engines in rental service. with in 100 hours you will either be buying a new engine or lifting it off the runway with a Crane with the gear up.

 

[Henning]

IOWs you do not understand what renters do to high horse power engines in rental service. with in 100 hours you will either be buying a new engine or lifting it off the runway with a Crane with the gear up.

That does not seem to be the typical experience at places like Plus One or in Australia where it is normal to be able to rent any plane on the airport. I was renting either an A-36 or a Lance, and those guys didn't seem to have major problems.

Besides, a club isn't an FBO line.

 

[Tom-D]

That does not seem to be the typical experience at places like Plus One or in Australia where it is normal to be able to rent any plane on the airport. I was renting either an A-36 or a Lance, and those guys didn't seem to have major problems.

Besides, a club isn't an FBO line.

Gota remember, we are in America, most rentals are at the FBO/Flight school/club. none of the renters have any skin in the game, Rent-Fly-Walk. The club's maintenance officer will take care of it.

 

[AggieMike88]

Pm sent about a local late model Mooney at Addison (Scott Mccray's)

 

[StinkBug]

My club has many retractable gear, complex, and high performance planes including a couple Cirrus, 2 Bonanzas, and a Malibu. They dont get the kind of abuse you describe. The also have experience requirements and checkouts before you can take them solo.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You better get some more experience before you go hauling all those kids and wives around...

For sure. Then hypothecate.

 

[frfly172]

Find a club with a few different airplanes. Get some experience in the airplanes,see what you like,then when there not available ,buy what you like.

 

[Alexb2000]

These decisions have to start with an honest assessment of who you are vs. who you would like to be.

In my case I would love to have a super fast small two seater. That would be great if my wife was ready to leave for a long weekend in 2 minutes with nothing but a toothbrush and a bikini.

Reality in my case is me, the wife, two dogs, plus "necessary" luggage ALWAYS fills a Yukon up, even for a two day trip. So a six seat plane is a must.

Second point is that even if you fly mostly alone I would try to involve the family. Otherwise this becomes a very expensive individual hobby that gets less than zero support at home. Tenuous situation for most of us.

I would take my time, airplane ownership can be a breath taking experience.

 

[Henning]

Find a club with a few different airplanes. Get some experience in the airplanes,see what you like,then when there not available ,buy what you like.

25 years ago I would have said "Yeah That", but these days it's "If you are so lucky as to be able to find that." The rental and cub market are dead. In the 1970s you could rent a Corsair or a Mustang, these days you're lucky to find anything beyond a 172 or Warrior to rent, and if you do it's likely to be a Cirrus for big bucks.

 

[bluerooster]

So you want an airplane that can haul you + wife, and two kids, plus bags. And will also double as a short hopper, fun to fly 'round the patch type airplane.
Mabe a 182 would fit the bill. Not quite as economical as a 172, but not as expensive to obtain and operate as something larger/faster.
As far as rental for long trips/vacation. I find it hard to justify $250+/hr x 4 hours/day while it sits on the ground away from home base for a week. (what most places 'round here charge) For a five day vacation, with 4 hours time on the hobbs,
and the rest of the time sitting on the ground. That gets into the thousands real quickly.

 

[tfitch03]

Pm sent about a local late model Mooney at Addison (Scott Mccray's)

Is it listed any where? Or is he looking for a partner?

 

[Henning]

So you want an airplane that can haul you + wife, and two kids, plus bags. And will also double as a short hopper, fun to fly 'round the patch type airplane.
Mabe a 182 would fit the bill. Not quite as economical as a 172, but not as expensive to obtain and operate as something larger/faster.
As far as rental for long trips/vacation. I find it hard to justify $250+/hr x 4 hours/day while it sits on the ground away from home base for a week. (what most places 'round here charge) For a five day vacation, with 4 hours time on the hobbs,
and the rest of the time sitting on the ground. That gets into the thousands real quickly.

Three kids, that's the problem, 5+ bags. Right now he could get away with a 6 seat Comanche or 33/35 Bonanza, but that back seat is small and that person shares the luggage space.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Partnership and buy a fixed gear like a Piper 6

 

[James331]

Depends, if you enjoy flying I'd get a Cessna 180.

If you're using flying just as transportation, I'd get a Saratoga.

Or just leave the kids at home and open up more options.

 

[tfitch03]

Depends, if you enjoy flying I'd get a Cessna 180.

If you're using flying just as transportation, I'd get a Saratoga.

Or just leave the kids at home and open up more options.

180...good call. Pretty fast, efficient, and will pick up whatever you can cram in there. Most importantly, fun to fly. Unique.

 

[Henning]

Depends, if you enjoy flying I'd get a Cessna 180.

If you're using flying just as transportation, I'd get a Saratoga.

Or just leave the kids at home and open up more options.

Does a 180 seat 5?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Does a 180 seat 5?

It can, but not with baggage and not for long. Kiddie seat takes room out of the baggage compartment, IIRC.

To TexAv, Your best bet is to buy for the 80% of the flying you do and rent for the rest. It will probably be cheaper in the long run than to pay the associated costs on a 6 seater that you fly solo most of the time.

 

[Tom-D]

Does a 180 seat 5?

The 185 will

 

[Henning]

It can, but not with baggage and not for long. Kiddie seat takes room out of the baggage compartment, IIRC.

To TexAv, Your best bet is to buy for the 80% of the flying you do and rent for the rest. It will probably be cheaper in the long run than to pay the associated costs on a 6 seater that you fly solo most of the time.

The problem is that there are so few markets left where there are 6 seaters available.

That's the problem with GA these days, the rental end is getting pretty thin for anything but a trainer or a Cirrus. His best bet is if there is an SR-22 he can rent, but if he uses it a lot, the cost will be higher than if he buys a Cherokee 6.

 

[TexasAviation]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

I could save up to buy a six-seater within two years or less. I could afford to operate and maintain it, no problem. Heck, I could fit a twin in the budget if I really wanted to. But it's still a question of whether I WANT to spend that much money on my hobby when the majority of the time I'm not going to need those six seats or those two engines.

I'm very financially conservative, which isn't a good fit with an expensive hobby Whatever I bought, I'd want to properly maintain, of course, and I know that doesn't come cheap — especially as you get into bigger, more powerful, more complex machines.

So when I think about spending $100,000+ on an aircraft, and potentially tens of thousands per year to operate and maintain it, I'm not sure I could being myself to do it. I'm too much of a miser.

I'm also not going to rush into anything. I'm very much a newbie and have a lot to learn before taking the ownership plunge.

From a financial standpoint, I like the idea of a partnership on a nice six-seater so we could split the costs. But realistically, I'm leery of partnerships because of all the ways they can go wrong. I'd have to be VERY sure it was the right person and structured correctly to even think about that route.

 

[Alexb2000]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

I could save up to buy a six-seater within two years or less. I could afford to operate and maintain it, no problem. Heck, I could fit a twin in the budget if I really wanted to. But it's still a question of whether I WANT to spend that much money on my hobby when the majority of the time I'm not going to need those six seats or those two engines.

I'm very financially conservative, which isn't a good fit with an expensive hobby Whatever I bought, I'd want to properly maintain, of course, and I know that doesn't come cheap — especially as you get into bigger, more powerful, more complex machines.

So when I think about spending $100,000+ on an aircraft, and potentially tens of thousands per year to operate and maintain it, I'm not sure I could being myself to do it. I'm too much of a miser.

I'm also not going to rush into anything. I'm very much a newbie and have a lot to learn before taking the ownership plunge.

From a financial standpoint, I like the idea of a partnership on a nice six-seater so we could split the costs. But realistically, I'm leery of partnerships because of all the ways they can go wrong. I'd have to be VERY sure it was the right person and structured correctly to even think about that route.

Assuming you are going to travel, have IFR capability, good avionics, AP, etc. then you are in the $100K range and at least $15K to operate per year, likely higher. That also doesn't consider reserves, unexpected maintenance (there will be plenty), etc.

Before I bought my current bird I rented the same model and flew it to CA and back to be sure I liked it. The bill was $6K and kind of sobering. In retrospect, it was a good deal I should have just kept renting. Come on in the waters warm.

 

[N747JB]

I am a strong advocate of ownership, I have two!
But, in your case I would rent for a while, maybe another year or two and see how much you are flying and IF the wife and kids really like it. Renting under $100 per hour for a well equipped plane is as cheap or cheaper than owning it in many cases. Kids grow up REALLY fast! So, you may be able to cram them into a 4 seater by sharing a seatbelt now or even a 180/182 with the child seats in the baggage area, but it won't last long.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

I could save up to buy a six-seater within two years or less. I could afford to operate and maintain it, no problem. Heck, I could fit a twin in the budget if I really wanted to. But it's still a question of whether I WANT to spend that much money on my hobby when the majority of the time I'm not going to need those six seats or those two engines.

I'm very financially conservative, which isn't a good fit with an expensive hobby Whatever I bought, I'd want to properly maintain, of course, and I know that doesn't come cheap — especially as you get into bigger, more powerful, more complex machines.

So when I think about spending $100,000+ on an aircraft, and potentially tens of thousands per year to operate and maintain it, I'm not sure I could being myself to do it. I'm too much of a miser.

I'm also not going to rush into anything. I'm very much a newbie and have a lot to learn before taking the ownership plunge.

From a financial standpoint, I like the idea of a partnership on a nice six-seater so we could split the costs. But realistically, I'm leery of partnerships because of all the ways they can go wrong. I'd have to be VERY sure it was the right person and structured correctly to even think about that route.

 

[Henning]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

I could save up to buy a six-seater within two years or less. I could afford to operate and maintain it, no problem. Heck, I could fit a twin in the budget if I really wanted to. But it's still a question of whether I WANT to spend that much money on my hobby when the majority of the time I'm not going to need those six seats or those two engines.

I'm very financially conservative, which isn't a good fit with an expensive hobby Whatever I bought, I'd want to properly maintain, of course, and I know that doesn't come cheap — especially as you get into bigger, more powerful, more complex machines.

So when I think about spending $100,000+ on an aircraft, and potentially tens of thousands per year to operate and maintain it, I'm not sure I could being myself to do it. I'm too much of a miser.

I'm also not going to rush into anything. I'm very much a newbie and have a lot to learn before taking the ownership plunge.

From a financial standpoint, I like the idea of a partnership on a nice six-seater so we could split the costs. But realistically, I'm leery of partnerships because of all the ways they can go wrong. I'd have to be VERY sure it was the right person and structured correctly to even think about that route.

The thing that makes aviation the hazardous activity it is is that it is inherently trying to kill you, and it's expensive to hedge the odds. Miserly people should not own aircraft, it is a horrible experience for them to keep a plane up to safe standards, you are always spending money on your plane. Some people are much happier renting. It is difficult to find, but there are actually FBOs out there that will give you a good deal on a leaseback. If one of these is in your area (you can do your due diligence talking to other owners of leaseback planes to check their experience, I haven't met one yet who wasn't honest and open), you can buy the plane you want to rent 20% of the time and put it in their hands to manage, same as you would loan them money, it's now under their control, it's no longer "your airplane" and you have to schedule and pay whatever the contracted rate is (you get part of that returned when they pay you your cut)and get on the schedule like everyone else. You can also rent the lower cost plane from them for the other 80% of your flying. The FBO I started at had 2 guys that did that, one with a Lance and one with a Seneca and they were very pleased with their situation since it was a busy place and their planes got good usage and the school owner was a fair and honest guy trying to make things work for everyone.

If you don't like that idea, or finding a partner, I find it hard to recommend you buy any plane at all. Just look further afield for a rental, hang out at the airport, walk the hangars, and see if someone wants to do a private rental deal.

If you do end up having to buy a plane to meet your needs (very likely), you're going to need to learn meditation so you can find some inner peace with the process. Aviation is very difficult to do "on the cheap" and maintain a sufficient level of safety, not to mention maintaining the value of your airplane. Misers also don't end up saving money either. Aviation costs what it costs, and like the old FRAM commercials said, "You can pay me now, or pay me later." Paying later invariably costs more because that $100 problem that was deferred turned loose and took a $20,000 component with it, if not your life, and at that moment you can only sell the plane at scrap price until you fix it.

If you do not think you can deal with the constant outflow of cash that aviation requires, then I wouldn't suggest you buy an airplane unless you are a really good mechanic and have the time and inclination to do your own work, or at least diagnostics.

 

[TexasAviation]

The thing that makes aviation the hazardous activity it is is that it is inherently trying to kill you, and it's expensive to hedge the odds.

That's wonderful advice! Love that quote.

And by calling myself a "miser," I don't mean I'd be inclined to defer maintenance. Didn't mean to mislead you. If I saw a problem, or if my A&P said something needs to be fixed, or if my plane needs an upgrade that will significantly improve safety, I'm going to spend the money on it. I'm not stupid.

I'm just saying my personality makes me lean toward cheaper-to-operate aircraft. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I could spend a bunch of money on an airplane in the coming years, but I want the plane to be a small part of my budget, if that makes sense. That's why 172s and Cherokees appeal to me. And Mooneys, for that matter.

 

[James331]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

I could save up to buy a six-seater within two years or less. I could afford to operate and maintain it, no problem. Heck, I could fit a twin in the budget if I really wanted to. But it's still a question of whether I WANT to spend that much money on my hobby when the majority of the time I'm not going to need those six seats or those two engines.

I'm very financially conservative, which isn't a good fit with an expensive hobby Whatever I bought, I'd want to properly maintain, of course, and I know that doesn't come cheap — especially as you get into bigger, more powerful, more complex machines.

So when I think about spending $100,000+ on an aircraft, and potentially tens of thousands per year to operate and maintain it, I'm not sure I could being myself to do it. I'm too much of a miser.

I'm also not going to rush into anything. I'm very much a newbie and have a lot to learn before taking the ownership plunge.

From a financial standpoint, I like the idea of a partnership on a nice six-seater so we could split the costs. But realistically, I'm leery of partnerships because of all the ways they can go wrong. I'd have to be VERY sure it was the right person and structured correctly to even think about that route.

I recommended the 180 because if you look at the prices over the years, you probably could buy one for a somewhat good deal and sell it in 5 years for more than you paid for it.

Typically in my 185, which is similar to a 180, I'm burning 13GPH at 125-130TAS on floats.

Also you could work the plane (scenic rides, photography, etc) and make money.


When summer comes around $100 bucks a head for a 25min scenic ride, easily get 3 folks per flight, part time for a month or two, I should be in the green each year with tax write offs.

Maintance, well it's a simple plane not too much to go wrong, going through the logs not too much on any of it's annuals, last one I paid for was 500 bucks and a battery, owner assist of course.

 

[Henning]

That's wonderful advice! Love that quote.

And by calling myself a "miser," I don't mean I'd be inclined to defer maintenance. Didn't mean to mislead you. If I saw a problem, or if my A&P said something needs to be fixed, or if my plane needs an upgrade that will significantly improve safety, I'm going to spend the money on it. I'm not stupid.

I'm just saying my personality makes me lean toward cheaper-to-operate aircraft. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I could spend a bunch of money on an airplane in the coming years, but I want the plane to be a small part of my budget, if that makes sense. That's why 172s and Cherokees appeal to me. And Mooneys, for that matter.

Exactly, that's what I mean and I know people who that made completely miserable, "I always have to spend money on this thing." Airplanes are like horses in that regard, you will constantly spend money on them whether you use them or not. At least a horse smells good.

The thing about 172s and PA-28s is unless you can find a 6 seat plane to rent, that will leave you dissatisfied as well because you will never be able to use aviation for a family vacation.

Budget and aviation are two words that don't go together very well.

 

[James331]

Exactly, that's what I mean and I know people who that made completely miserable, "I always have to spend money on this thing." Airplanes are like horses in that regard, you will constantly spend money on them whether you use them or not. At least a horse smells good.

The thing about 172s and PA-28s is unless you can find a 6 seat plane to rent, that will leave you dissatisfied as well because you will never be able to use aviation for a family vacation.

Budget and aviation are two words that don't go together very well.

Much also depends on the AP you're using.

I've seen many recommend doings things that just don't need doing, this is where owner assist and good recommendations from high time local pilots comes into play.

Don't let "for saftey" be the magic word for "I need more business"

I don't screw around ether, but that doesn't mean I flush cash down the toilet.

 

[Yeti Niner Five]

I'm in the same boat...family of five. I really need two planes, one for fun and one for family. These guys are right, the right plan is a partnership for a Saratoga or something similar.

Where in TX?

 

[Henning]

Much also depends on the AP you're using.

I've seen many recommend doings things that just don't need doing, this is where owner assist and good recommendations from high time local pilots comes into play.

Don't let "for saftey" be the magic word for "I need more business"

I don't screw around ether, but that doesn't mean I flush cash down the toilet.

This is also where it helps to find an A&P-IA for a partner. I thoroughly agree though. You can certainly reduce how much you are constantly spending, but it's always something. Even doing your own maintenance it still a continuous nickel and dime flow with the occasional big bill you can't avoid.

 

[DakotaGreg]

Your experience level should keep you from a retract, even if you could find an insurance company that would give you insurance. Based in Texas you have little need for a Turbo. I would recommend a six passenger aircraft such as a Cessna 206 or a piper Six. Occasionally, you can find a Saratoga that is not a retract. I have seen a few other suggest that you put it in a leaseback, and I agree. However, make sure the leaseback agreement is fair and reasonable. And make certain that it is base at a club that will likely get you at least 20 hours per month rental. Any less than 20 hours per month will not likely offset the additional cost of being on leaseback.

 

[Henning]

There is no issue between getting insurance and getting a retract, it will be some extra money the first year, and that won't change with time except to increase if you have too much time before you switch to a retract.