What to expect post DUI

B

B717Greenberg

Guest
I'm sure this topic has been covered before, but please share your stories on what to expect from the FAA/HIMS process after a "refusal" field breathalyzer. (No documented BAC).

I'll bet the FAA considers each case unique...but I'm reading conflicting google searches on how the FAA "clears up" the pilots mess-up....

Looking for stories and solutions...

B
 
That’s a dr Bruce / lawyer question, but the FAA is administrative law and also rather puritanical when it comes to substances, basically you have to admit your sin and that you are a “alcoholic” and toss yourself
on their mercy and jump through a ton of hoops, and of-course pay a ton of money.

From my understanding not blowing can help in the real world law, but it doesn’t help with the FAA, quite the opposite.
 
Depends on what your blew, if you blew and what your proveable record of priors/ no priors looks like....including plead-downs (e.g "wet reckless")
 
From my "library" of "soon to be sticky posts"...

But also some questions:
  1. do you already hold a pilot certificate?
  2. Were you arrested for the DUI? (I am thinking you were due to the demand for the breathalyzer)
  3. Per §61.15, did you report this to the Civil Aviation Security Division (AMC–700), no later than 60 days after the motor vehicle action?
___________________________

... that you refused to blow on the breathalyzer, the FAA will assume that your BAC was at or above 0.15 , that is big thing that the FAA is going to want to know all about. And it isn’t just that single point in time. They want to know SIGNIFICANTLY more about your overall physical and psychological makeup that got you there and allows you to get there. This is due that, in general, most humans don't achieve that tall of a BAC and still remain functional to operate a motor vehicle unless they have developed a tolerance to alcohol. And a tolerance to alcohol only happens with frequent consumption of enough quantity such that it takes more alcohol to experience the effects to drinker wants.

To fix this with the FAA, this situation is now a matter of what is going on between your ears and behaviors instead of what is going into the mouth and what your brain is going to say so it can continue to be fed the desired effects of alcohol.

The FAA acts as a warden to prevent individuals that have developed a tolerance for high alcohol limits from obtaining and exercising pilot privileges. So for individuals such as yourself, the ball will be placed squarely in your court to prove beyond shadows of doubt that you are willing to prove you are worthy of flying privileges by doing everything they will ask of you.

If you have applied for a medical, the letter you are going to get will have the specific details of what the FAA wants. Search back through this forum, and you will see that the requirements will include
  • A $6000 to $10,000 budget to pay for they various things the FAA will require of you.
  • A neuro cognative psychological screen of extreme depth that only a very few HIMS psychologists can administer, paid for out of your pocket
  • Direct sponsorship with a Senior HIMS AME, to whom you report to frequently and to whom you must demonstrate you are doing what is required to earn the medical certificate. There are very, very few of these AME’s, so plan onfrequent travel to see the one who is working your case.
  • 90 days of intensive alcohol dependency treatment.
  • 100% sobriety and abstinence from all alcohol. Wine with girlfriend and beer with buddies is now verboten,
    für immer
  • Documented attendance with alcohol dependency meetings
  • Many, many random pee in the cup whiz quizzes
  • And much, much more. Especially if you are a revenue pilot operating under Parts 121 or 135.

All of this must be done in exacting detail for you to be granted a Special Issuance medical. Only after continued proven 100% sobriety for a long period of time will you be allowed back into the normal issuance group. And after that, you must continue to demonstrate 100% sobriety.

Reading this and then saying back to us, “but I am not an alcoholic, I do not have a drinking problem” is an incorrect response.

That you refused the breathalyzer test is a strong indicator that, per the FAA standards, there is a problem.

The correct response is saying, “fine, I have a problem. Let’s get going with meeting the requirements and make the significant lifestyle change to admit I have an alcohol problem and earn back my sobriety."

Humble and humility wins the day over arrogance and unwillingness to accept and change.

Unless you do that, the FAA is unwilling to allow you back into the air.
 
I'm sure this topic has been covered before,
It has..... and you would be well served to use the search function to find the alcohol related threads that have occurred over the past years.
 
...Reading this and then saying back to us, “but I am not an alcoholic, I do not have a drinking problem” is an incorrect response.

That you refused the breathalyzer test is a strong indicator that, per the FAA standards, there is a problem....


Good post and it should be a sticky, however

Responding to US that he’s not a alcoholic is fine and very likely may be true, getting pulled over once for a DUI no more makes you an alcoholic than visiting the air and space museum and having a photo by a shuttle makes you an astronaut.

However, as the saying goes; FOR TESTING PURPOSES, the CORRECT answer is “I have a problem”

Refusing the breath test, that doesn’t prove anything other than you don’t want to play the cops games, to me a huuuge factor would be if you got pulled over for swerving or driving like a drunk, vs got caught up in a revenue and anti 4th amendment road block.

But the government doesn’t want facts or thinking, they want compliance. The whole DUI industry (and it is a industry) and the testing / police training IS NOT designed to see IF you are drunk, but THAT you are drunk.

OP did not please the crown with his disobedience of the cops magic breath box.
 
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Let me ask this...

Is there a statue of limitations? A "no-blow" happened 6.5 years ago. I'm interviewing a few potential schools in my area and want to have the paperwork done prior to spending the $$$...
 
Let me ask this...

Is there a statue of limitations? A "no-blow" happened 6.5 years ago. I'm interviewing a few potential schools in my area and want to have the paperwork done prior to spending the $$$...

Here’s my advice for what it’s worth.

You live and die by the databases

Get one of these
https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/identity-history-summary-checks

Get a drivers abstract in the state it occurred in

Get a livescan or whatever other type state background check on yourself in the state it occurred in

See what’s on it.
 
The experts will be along soon. But... while a no-blow may have helped your immediate situation with local law enforcement and responding to that case, the FAA has their own interpretations.

If you blew more than .08 and less than .15 (I think those are the correct numbers) than you'd have evidence the FAA would consider differently than "No reported BAC."
 
The experts will be along soon. But... while a no-blow may have helped your immediate situation with local law enforcement and responding to that case, the FAA has their own interpretations.
@b717greenberg... to expand on the difference of what you might be thinking and what Rob says here...

Your encounter with the police happens within the criminal law environment, whereas the FAA's response and actions are within the administrative law environment.

In criminal law, a statute of limitations may exist for certain items.

But with the FAA, and the medical certification process, we all are answering to the question on Federal form 8500-8 that says, "Have you ever in your life...". This means that from this point onward, you must always answer YES to question 18v which asks about a history of “arrests or convictions involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.”

So no, there is no statute of limitations when it comes to the FAA.
 
Good post and it should be a sticky, however

Responding to US that he’s not a alcoholic is fine and very likely may be true, getting pulled over once for a DUI no more makes you an alcoholic than visiting the air and space museum and having a photo by a shuttle makes you an astronaut.

However, as the saying goes; FOR TESTING PURPOSES, the CORRECT answer is “I have a problem”

Refusing the breath test, that doesn’t prove anything other than you don’t want to play the cops games, to me a huuuge factor would be if you got pulled over for swerving or driving like a drunk, vs got caught up in a revenue and anti 4th amendment road block.

But the government doesn’t want facts or thinking, they want compliance. The whole DUI industry (and it is a industry) and the testing / police training IS NOT designed to see IF you are drunk, but THAT you are drunk.

OP did not please the crown with his disobedience of the cops magic breath box.
Thanks for your comments James.

The MC has asked me to take on the task of creating posts that take the things we have learned and discussed in the medical forums and author some "sticky posts". I'll take your comments into consideration when I do the one for alcohol.
 
So @AggieMike88 here is a fun sidebar. Everyone asks questions about what to do after they have sinned... Let’s say you are a pilot and did some drinking and get pulled over... best call is to blow right and take your chances??

The best plan is not to drive even close to being Intoxicated, easpwciallt when your job depends on it. For truck drivers that get pulled over during their off hours in their own car, they lose their CDL for a year for a bac greater then 0.04. And if you have a hazmat greater then 0.02.

If you have the where with all to make a good decision after a bad decision of driving drunk, what do you do???
 
Thanks for your comments James.

The MC has asked me to take on the task of creating posts that take the things we have learned and discussed in the medical forums and author some "sticky posts". I'll take your comments into consideration when I do the one for alcohol.

Didn’t mean any disrespect and your post was right on as far as the situation and how to deal with it per what doc Bruce normally says.

Only thing I added, which I do think is worth mention is if there is a old ticket or something (probably older than 6 years though) might be worth running yourself before you make a mountain out of what might be a mole hill.
 
Didn’t mean any disrespect and your post was right on as far as the situation and how to deal with it.
No disrespect taken. But you made a valid point that I cannot do a "broad brush" when there isn't enough evidence in play. And I liked your shuttle astronaut comparison.
 
So @AggieMike88 here is a fun sidebar. Everyone asks questions about what to do after they have sinned... Let’s say you are a pilot and did some drinking and get pulled over... best call is to blow right and take your chances??

The best plan is not to drive even close to being Intoxicated, easpwciallt when your job depends on it. For truck drivers that get pulled over during their off hours in their own car, they lose their CDL for a year for a bac greater then 0.04. And if you have a hazmat greater then 0.02.

If you have the where with all to make a good decision after a bad decision of driving drunk, what do you do???

I agree that the best choice during a night on the town is to either chose not to drink at all, or know your limits and be sure to keep consumption to a low amount and cease consumption hours before you need to go home (letting your liver do it's thing), or choose to make use of a designated driver, taxi, or Uber if you do over consume.

As to the question of

To blow, or not to blow, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of FAA alcohol certification ,
Or to take Uber and avoid a Sea of troubles,​

I recall the question posed to Dr. Bruce years ago on another forum. And I recall him saying it's better to blow so that the real amount goes on record, avoiding the default BAC for not blowing if you are likely below that.

I do have plans of enlisting Dr. Bruce in reviewing the future sticky posts for accuracy. Especially on questions like "blow or no blow".

And your sidebar is a fair question. And implies that, as a certificate pilot, knowing the correct information before, during, and after an alcohol event is as important to knowing all the FARs that apply to your current point in your aviation career.
 
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Let me ask this...

Is there a statue of limitations? A "no-blow" happened 6.5 years ago. I'm interviewing a few potential schools in my area and want to have the paperwork done prior to spending the $$$...

Sounds like you have not applied for a medical yet. There will be questions on the application that ask if you have ever in your life been arrested, and whether you have any alcohol related convictions. A single DUI is not disqualifying, but you may have to jump through some hoops to get your certificate. Dr. Bruce is the expert on this process, as he is an AME with extensive experience helping airmen get their certificates.

If you lie on your medical application, the FAA may issue your certificate without catching the issue immediately. However, they do check the records eventually, and they will in all likelihood eventually discovery that your application was false. At that time, they will send you a notice of emergency revocation of all of your certificates-- not just your medical, but also your pilots certificate. I defended a case once where they also initially revoked his A & P (airframe and powerplant mechanics certificate) and his IA (inspection authorization) at the same time they revoked his medical and pilots certificate. You will then have no chance to reapply for one year (although that can be negotiated down to 9 months, but that's the best you'll do.) Then you may reapply for everything, meaning taking the written tests, and all check rides again. Not fun. Not worth lying. Don't do it. Also, it's a criminal act to not report on your application.
 
Let me ask this...

Is there a statue of limitations? A "no-blow" happened 6.5 years ago.

Let me add, the matter I had with the guy that lost his A & P and IA involved an application where he failed to report arrests that were more than 10 years old. He thought he didn't have to report because they were so long ago. The question on the application is not limited to convictions within the last 10 years. The age of the conviction may have something to do with what hoops you have to jump through (ask Doc Bruce), but the age is irrelevant to whether you must disclose the conviction on your application.
 
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