What to do

[Michael]

Here is a hypothetical question. something simillar happened to me in LA a while back.

You are on VFR flight following in the Los Angeles class Bravo airspace. You are descending to 3000 20 miles out of your intended landing airport. ATC advises fly heading 320 and 3000 for traffic. You notice a line of clouds in front of you, but they apear to be at a higher altitude. As you get closer you see that you will run right into the clouds unless some action is taken, you have aproximately 60 seconds to take such action. Listening to SoCal on the radio, he is very busy and you cannot get a word in. you are getting closer to the clouds, you must deviate from your course, and you cannot get ahold of Approach because the radio is so busy.

What would your plan of action be?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Aviate, navigate, (then) communicate.

Do what you gotta do and then talk to them.

 

[AdamZ]

Aviate, navigate, (then) communicate.

Do what you gotta do and then talk to them.

I agree. I'd just hold prior to reaching the clouds. Till App gets a break

 

[AirBaker]

I'm sure under the careful eye of those guys in the controller booth, the moment you do something they don't like, they'll tell ya.

You are PIC! Maybe hold prior as mentioned before, climb (just a little) to avoid them. You just have to remain clear of clouds. If I was leaving an assigned altitude, I'd report it. Even if its just briefly. "3-7-Sierra climbing for clouds." Or something like that.

I'm sure better advice is on its way!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I agree. I'd just hold prior to reaching the clouds. Till App gets a break

Why a hold, Adam?

It seems to me that you have no protected area, and you'd being going against the grain of traffic behind you. My intuition says an altitude change is safer, particularly if it's only a few hundred feet, but I might be wrong about that...

Of course if it's a wall of cloud that you can't easily get over or under, then I would agree that a hold would really be the only option.

 

[AdamZ]

Why a hold, Adam?

It seems to me that you have no protected area, and you'd being going against the grain of traffic behind you. My intuition says an altitude change is safer, particularly if it's only a few hundred feet, but I might be wrong about that...

Of course if it's a wall of cloud that you can't easily get over or under, then I would agree that a hold would really be the only option.

Well it all depends on how big the cloud bank is tops bottoms etc. I think changing alt could be more problematic than holding, especially in class B airspace. Also he was being vectored for traffic in what is a high traffic enviornment ( I assume). So I wouldn't want to be flying off willy nilly in any direction. At least if you hold ATC can see what you are doing and have a decent chance to predict that you will stay in the hold.

 

[fgcason]

What would your plan of action be?

For starters I try my best to insure I won't run into a cloud before hand. If it looks like it might be close, I'll try to arrange changes well ahead of time. But things fall apart sometimes so 60 seconds may be all I have available. Earlier is obviously always better.
Once I'm facing a wall of clouds if they're too busy for me to get a word in at all and I *REALLY* need to talk to them, I'll politely push ident to get their attention and keep pushing it to get their attention. It's kind of like raising your hand in class. The controller will at least know I need to talk to him or at least tell you to stop pushing the button at which time you can say something.
If all else fails, I'll stick with the original plan as much as possible but being VFR only, I will not stick my nose into any cloud that I can't see through for anyone unless physically there is no other choice. If possible, I'd make a slight course deviation, maybe a small altitude change. (Remember that in Class B, the rule for VFR is clear of clouds with no cloud separation requirements beyond that. So as long as I'm not scraping the cloud with part of the airplane I'm ok) If I'm facing a wall or the like, I'll hold outside the cloud at slightly off altitude (big sky theory) and be looking out the window like a hawk. The big course change should get their attention.

OBTW: When you're not sure if you're above or below something ahead of you (mountain top, cloud base, etc); In level flight hold your plotter by the top of the azimuth lightly with two fingers. The plotter will level itself to within a couple degrees. Sight down the top or bottom edge and you now have a level line. Above = above, below = below. It'll be a little off depending on how you hold it and you'll always have curvature of the earth issues however it'll give you a good idea how close you will be when you get there.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Once I'm facing a wall of clouds if they're too busy for me to get a word in at all and I *REALLY* need to talk to them, I'll politely push ident to get their attention and keep pushing it to get their attention. It's kind of like raising your hand in class. The controller will at least know I need to talk to him or at least tell you to stop pushing the button at which time you can say something.

That's a really good idea, and it would not have occured to me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Once I'm facing a wall of clouds if they're too busy for me to get a word in at all and I *REALLY* need to talk to them, I'll politely push ident to get their attention and keep pushing it to get their attention. It's kind of like raising your hand in class. The controller will at least know I need to talk to him or at least tell you to stop pushing the button at which time you can say something.

Isn't that a no-no? Couldn't another controller with you on his scope (TRACON vs. ARTCC, or different sector) have just asked someone to ident, and you'd be confusing him? Why don't you squawk 7600 instead?

I like the hold idea.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Isn't that a no-no? Couldn't another controller with you on his scope (TRACON vs. ARTCC, or different sector) have just asked someone to ident, and you'd be confusing him? Why don't you squawk 7600 instead?

I like the hold idea.

This isn't always true. Most other controller's sectors have aircraft not in their airspace/altitude strata "filtered" out and in some cases only see aircraft that they are "tracking" or have control of on radar. I would recommend Identing instead of squawking 7600. 7600 puts RDOF in your datatag, and if you don't have a Radio Failure, don't squawk it. On some radar, ident changes the actual target [blip] or in some cases an 'ID' flashes in your datablock. Regardless, you're already talking with ATC so they should see the ident coming from your datablock.

These are some simulated datatags [NOTE: Ignore the /v after the datatags]:

DSR (Center) Radar:

A/c Identing:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3359&stc=1&d=1133721900
Note the 3 dashes running across the target.

A/c squawking 7600
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3360&stc=1&d=1133721900

ARTS (Approach) Radar:

A/c Identing:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3361&stc=1&d=1133721900

A/c Squawking 7600
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3362&stc=1&d=1133721900

 

[jesse]

I've been in a similar situation before. This was in bravo airspace.

"super cruiser 85m descending to remain clear of clouds"

I didn't have much time before I would have been in them. This plane has no T/C or AI. Or DG. Clouds were something I wasn't going to be flying in.

They didn't seem to mind. But it's possible that it could cause an issue. Not as bad as being in the soup in that plane though.

If I would have been in something that was IFR equipped I would have probably waited for permission.

 

[poadeleted20]

One thing you definitely do not do is change altitude. You've got miles of separation space around you laterally, but only 500 feet vertically from the IFR traffic when operating VFR in B-space. If you climb or descend, you are likely to cause a "deal" that will earn you a pilot deviation report from ATC to the FSDO, and you could even have in a mid-air collision with someone you didn't know was there.

Doing a 360 where you are is the best idea. If you can't get a word in edgewise, squawk 7700 -- that will get their attention, and it is appropriate, because you are exercising your 91.3(b) authority to deviate from an ATC instruction. Pushing the IDENT button won't accomplish anything much, and 7600 is not an accurate signal, since you haven't lost comm.

 

[SCCutler]

From my VFR-only days, only time I encountered this, I called and the controller simply stated, "three five sierra altitude pilot's discretion remain VFR."

Like Frank mentioned, in Bravo if you are not in a cloud, you are legal.

Also (regarding the ident thing), recall that if you are in Bravo, you'll already have a discrete code anyway, so they'll nkow exactly who you are, not like when you're VFR and firts contact, and it's a 1200 code identing. I like that approach, innovative one when you're in one of those "no breaks in the flow" situations.

Good question.

 

[fgcason]

Isn't that a no-no? Couldn't another controller with you on his scope (TRACON vs. ARTCC, or different sector) have just asked someone to ident, and you'd be confusing him?

I'm not aware of it being a no-no. If it is, by that point in this scenario I'm about ready to flip to 91.3 (a) and (b) of the rulebook anyway so it wouldn't matter. If they want to discuss it with me, they can do so after I safely land somewhere. (That's not an anti-authority attitude problem, it's just a narrow minded thought process about not crashing if I don't have to) While I don't know the ATC radar systems as much as I would like and not sure exactly how the displays work, the point is to make my target on their screen stand out so ATC will take a second to ask me what my problem is. Besides, I'm sure that more than one airplane in a multiple sector situation has punched ident at the same time before without causing too much confusion.

Question for ATC types: Is an ident on a discrete code directly connected to the target sqwaking that code. My guess would be yes.

Why don't you squawk 7600 instead?

I'm not 7600 so that's not true. I'd most likely hit them with 7700 since it's an ATC induced emergency.


Humbling Note: I need to clarify the comment about altitude change I posted earlier. It's not exactly good advice and intended as a full blown emergency procedure to avoid impact with anyone else. As Rev Ron says, we're stacked close in Class B with a big horizontal buffer. Altitude deviations are much more likely to cause grief than horizontal deviations. I was refering to any altitude deviation being in the +-50ft range of the assigned altitude, NOT 300-400ft as some might assume. As long as everyone else is playing by the rulebook (which I follow as a fanatical religion of it's own in those areas), that will give just enough altitude variation to avoid a collision with anyone at my altitude if someone else isn't paying attention and without risking anyone at other assigned altitudes. I see running upstream in a surprise hold as being very dangerous. Personally I'd go with substantial horizontal deviations long before going off altitude. Horizontal, bad. Vertical, very bad. Metal, extremely bad. Rock, hard place, objects trying to bang into me. Not good.

I'm fairly sure the on-altitude 90 degree course change inside my moving tuna can shaped protected area on the scope will get their attention adequately to solve the problem before anything worse develops.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Question for ATC types: Is an ident on a discrete code directly connected to the target sqwaking that code. My guess would be yes.

I'm not 7600 so that's not true. I'd most likely hit them with 7700 since it's an ATC induced emergency.

If you ident on a descrite code, it comes in your datablock/target. Case in point: ATC tells you upon initial contact before entering the Bravo: "Squawk 4305 and ident." That allows him both to see your datablock and identing.

Unless an aircraft is on top of you or below you, your ident is coming from you, so it'll be displayed in the location where you are regardless of squawking a descrete code. OTOH, some controllers have their scopes filter out targets squawking 1200 if they are not directly in their altitude strata for their sector and/or airspace.

 

[fgcason]

If you ident on a descrite code, it comes in your datablock/target. Case in point: ATC tells you upon initial contact before entering the Bravo: "Squawk 4305 and ident." That allows him both to see your datablock and identing.

Unless an aircraft is on top of you or below you, your ident is coming from you, so it'll be displayed in the location where you are regardless of squawking a descrete code. OTOH, some controllers have their scopes filter out targets squawking 1200 if they are not directly in their altitude strata for their sector and/or airspace.

Thanks. That's what I was thinking it would do.

 

[Bones]

ident until they call ya

 

[Michael]

Doing a 360 where you are is the best idea. If you can't get a word in edgewise, squawk 7700 -- that will get their attention, and it is appropriate, because you are exercising your 91.3(b) authority to deviate from an ATC instruction. Pushing the IDENT button won't accomplish anything much, and 7600 is not an accurate signal, since you haven't lost comm.

That brings up a question. If you were to deviate from your assigned course, and could not comunicate with ATC... would you have to declare an emergency in order to break the rules?

 

[Henning]

Here is a hypothetical question. something simillar happened to me in LA a while back.

You are on VFR flight following in the Los Angeles class Bravo airspace. You are descending to 3000 20 miles out of your intended landing airport. ATC advises fly heading 320 and 3000 for traffic. You notice a line of clouds in front of you, but they apear to be at a higher altitude. As you get closer you see that you will run right into the clouds unless some action is taken, you have aproximately 60 seconds to take such action. Listening to SoCal on the radio, he is very busy and you cannot get a word in. you are getting closer to the clouds, you must deviate from your course, and you cannot get ahold of Approach because the radio is so busy.

What would your plan of action be?

Depends if you are on the shoreline or hollywood transition. If on the east, I'd descend (out of the bottom of the class B if necessary) , and break in as soon as I can with "LA App 04Y needs lower for VFR". Remember, the clearance you've been issued entering there VFR contained the edict to "Maintain VFR". If he doesn't like it he'll call you real fast and you can then tell him. Most of the VFR transitions through the east side of LAX, you are typically safe to head for the deck.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

That brings up a question. If you were to deviate from your assigned course, and could not comunicate with ATC... would you have to declare an emergency in order to break the rules?

If I couldn't get a word in on freq before needing to deviate, I'd tell them on the first comm after the fact.

I'm actually a bit surprised that you got a VFR Class B clearance in LA if the frequency was full. Did you get the clearance initially from a different controller?

ATC advises fly heading 320 and 3000 for traffic.

I now see that you wrote "advises". Were you actually in the Class B (that is, with a "Cleared into Bravo airspace", or just talking to Socal Approach outside of the Bravo? If you are not within the Class B, you can deviate under VFR because you were given an advisory, not a clearance - although in congested airspace like Socal, this is only recommended when absolutely necessary. On some occasions, Socal will issue a "maintain VFR at or above 3,500" or something like that. In those cases, my read is that you either 1) follow their instruction, 2) explain why you must deviate and do it with their ok, or 3) squawk 1200 and cancel advisories and do what you want (last resort)

Jeff

 

[poadeleted20]

That brings up a question. If you were to deviate from your assigned course, and could not comunicate with ATC... would you have to declare an emergency in order to break the rules?

If you read 91.3(b) (quoted below), you won't find the word "declare" in there anywhere. Further, on the reductio ad absurdum side, if that were a requirement and you had a total comm failure (including XPDR), you could not "declare" an emergency, so you could not deviate, and that is (at least to me) an obvious absurdity.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
​

So, no, you do not have to declare before you deviate -- if you have an emergent situation, and you need to deviate, you do what you have to do and tell ATC as soon as you can do so without creating further hazard. But in the specific case, deviating horizontally is strongly preferred to deviating vertically for the reasons already stated -- less chance of causing a traffic conflict.

 

[gismo]

One thing you definitely do not do is change altitude. You've got miles of separation space around you laterally, but only 500 feet vertically from the IFR traffic when operating VFR in B-space. If you climb or descend, you are likely to cause a "deal" that will earn you a pilot deviation report from ATC to the FSDO, and you could even have in a mid-air collision with someone you didn't know was there.

Doing a 360 where you are is the best idea. If you can't get a word in edgewise, squawk 7700 -- that will get their attention, and it is appropriate, because you are exercising your 91.3(b) authority to deviate from an ATC instruction. Pushing the IDENT button won't accomplish anything much, and 7600 is not an accurate signal, since you haven't lost comm.

While Ident clearly isn't called for here in any official publication I've ever seen, it might just be the best option (in addition to the evasive maneuvers necessary to remain VFR). When you change your squawk code, ATC's computer might not recognize that it's you with the problem. Sure the scope will show your location along with the emerg. code, but your assigned code may not "tag up". For that reason alone I think that changing to either 7600 or 7700 wouldn't be the best option.

And to the 76 vs 7700 code, technically if you can't transmit because of a saturated frequency, you have lost comm, at least the transmit side.

 

[AirBaker]

While Ident clearly isn't called for here in any official publication I've ever seen, it might just be the best option (in addition to the evasive maneuvers necessary to remain VFR). When you change your squawk code, ATC's computer might not recognize that it's you with the problem. Sure the scope will show your location along with the emerg. code, but your assigned code may not "tag up". For that reason alone I think that changing to either 7600 or 7700 wouldn't be the best option.

And to the 76 vs 7700 code, technically if you can't transmit because of a saturated frequency, you have lost comm, at least the transmit side.

I agree. It seems like the amount of time changing transponder codes, you'd be in the cloud already.

Perhaps "reduce speed" should be on the list of firsts...

 

[jesse]

At this point.

Just pull the lever for the parachute , crash into a field, total your plane.

Insurance company buy's you new expensive disposable airplane.

You fly again.

We all pay more

...*cough*..