What to do....?

[Aztec Driver]

So I am at a decision point here. Do I spend the money to upgrade some of the avionics, or do I just repair what absolutely needs repaired and deal with it until I get another airplane with better working avionics?

I really love my Twin Comanche, but I cannot afford to keep it on my own and still upgrade it. My partner would prefer to have a Mooney, but I wanted the extra payload and slight speed of the TwinCo. Most of the Mooneys he likes are twice the price I paid for Twinkie. That leaves a lot of room for upgrades.

The autopilot is mostly non-functional. (Unless you are an adventurous type) It will roll you into a death spiral in no time if you try to intercept a heading that is more than 10 degrees off your present heading. Altitude hold does not work. The heading indicator has begun to rotate full circle for several minutes before finally erecting and solidifying. It may take 10-15 minutes to do so. It works well after that, though. Nobody wants to repair the autopilot, and tell me that it is better to put a new one in, as mine is not supported anymore and would cost more to rebuild than it is worth.

That means I can have several options for upgrade. But they all cost 25-30K to complete. That puts the amount of money into the airplane at more than it is worth, even with the upgrades. The STEC 30 autopilot is around 13K, and then since I will need an HI, which I figured I might as well have an HSI, that starts to get close to the price of the Aspen Avionics unit. So it keeps spiraling upward in cost. Add non compatible radios and a non standard panel and it gets daunting. As much as this airplane has taught me that I can fly an airplane without a working autopilot in hard IMC, it is not a fun workload, and I need to enjoy my time in the air.

So, is it worth it to put this much money into an aging aircraft?

 

[Henning]

So I am at a decision point here. Do I spend the money to upgrade some of the avionics, or do I just repair what absolutely needs repaired and deal with it until I get another airplane with better working avionics?

I really love my Twin Comanche, but I cannot afford to keep it on my own and still upgrade it. My partner would prefer to have a Mooney, but I wanted the extra payload and slight speed of the TwinCo. Most of the Mooneys he likes are twice the price I paid for Twinkie. That leaves a lot of room for upgrades.

The autopilot is mostly non-functional. (Unless you are an adventurous type) It will roll you into a death spiral in no time if you try to intercept a heading that is more than 10 degrees off your present heading. Altitude hold does not work. The heading indicator has begun to rotate full circle for several minutes before finally erecting and solidifying. It may take 10-15 minutes to do so. It works well after that, though. Nobody wants to repair the autopilot, and tell me that it is better to put a new one in, as mine is not supported anymore and would cost more to rebuild than it is worth.

That means I can have several options for upgrade. But they all cost 25-30K to complete. That puts the amount of money into the airplane at more than it is worth, even with the upgrades. The STEC 30 autopilot is around 13K, and then since I will need an HI, which I figured I might as well have an HSI, that starts to get close to the price of the Aspen Avionics unit. So it keeps spiraling upward in cost. Add non compatible radios and a non standard panel and it gets daunting. As much as this airplane has taught me that I can fly an airplane without a working autopilot in hard IMC, it is not a fun workload, and I need to enjoy my time in the air.

So, is it worth it to put this much money into an aging aircraft?

Dang it, I hate it that when I lose my connection and post, it loses the reply. (I'm about 6 miles offshore just N or Cape Canaveral), I had a long reply evaluating many different aspects, but the key points:
Value, more involved than sale price, what is it worth to you. You cannot buy a new direct replacement, and the closest thing out there is >$600k. Twinkie & Mooney not comparable, no Single hard IMC for me. Yours =Good Engines & Airframe $30-$40k upgrade may be better than new (to you) airplane risking $30-$40k first annual. If my choice with Good airframe and engines and envisioning this aircraft suiting my needs for 10 years or so, I'd bit the bullet for the Aspen- WAAS/Radio- S-Tec upgrade, though me being me, I'd be scrounging the junkyards for the A/P and maybe try to find a 480 cheap.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Dang it, I hate it that when I lose my connection and post, it loses the reply. (I'm about 6 miles offshore just N or Cape Canaveral), I had a long reply evaluating many different aspects, but the key points:
Value, more involved than sale price, what is it worth to you. You cannot buy a new direct replacement, and the closest thing out there is >$600k. Twinkie & Mooney not comparable, no Single hard IMC for me. Yours =Good Engines & Airframe $30-$40k upgrade may be better than new (to you) airplane risking $30-$40k first annual. If my choice with Good airframe and engines and envisioning this aircraft suiting my needs for 10 years or so, I'd bit the bullet for the Aspen- WAAS/Radio- S-Tec upgrade, though me being me, I'd be scrounging the junkyards for the A/P and maybe try to find a 480 cheap.

I am still formulating and looking for good used equipment. A used 430 can upgrade to WAAS and would be nice, but again, adds more money. I am pretty much on the same page as you, and some of your statements put it into better perspective. I keep forgetting about the "first annual" part of purchasing an airplane. I got really lucky in that my first annual only cost $1600. I will have to spend a little more this year because of the upcoming gear AD, but he said it shouldn't be too bad. Engines are sound and under 1000 hours. I would just like to paint and interior it, but function has to win out over aesthetics. Paint can come later.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I currently have a KLN94, a stand alone 122 VOR, a KY96 comm, a narco nav com, an ADF, non functional Altimatic II, and standard steam gauges.

I have quite a few options, and want to get the most bang for the buck. So far, I am leaning towards the STEC 30 with alt hold, Aspen Avionics Pro unit, a good used KX155 to replace the VOR and Comm, and a panel refit.

I had toyed with the idea of a Century 2000 or STEC 55 AP for the Glide Slope capture, but I can get more equipment for the same price if I downsize the AP.

I want a 430 with WAAS, but the cost goes beyond my budget. If I can find a good used one and upgrade it to WAAS, it would be better.

What other options can you suggest that will make my head spin faster?

 

[Henning]

I currently have a KLN94, a stand alone 122 VOR, a KY96 comm, a narco nav com, an ADF, non functional Altimatic II, and standard steam gauges.

I have quite a few options, and want to get the most bang for the buck. So far, I am leaning towards the STEC 30 with alt hold, Aspen Avionics Pro unit, a good used KX155 to replace the VOR and Comm, and a panel refit.

I had toyed with the idea of a Century 2000 or STEC 55 AP for the Glide Slope capture, but I can get more equipment for the same price if I downsize the AP.

I want a 430 with WAAS, but the cost goes beyond my budget. If I can find a good used one and upgrade it to WAAS, it would be better.

What other options can you suggest that will make my head spin faster?

The 480 has been orphaned from a sales point of view, but a couple of enquiries I've made say that they will still be supported/repairable and databases will still exist. Eeeeee.... ME? I'd probably go that route. I understand that there are still some new ones to be had, perhaps at fire sale prices? Personnally, I couldn't imagine going through all the expense and hassle of putting in an autopilot that didn't capture and fly the glideslope. I'd be checking with the wreckers all the time for a 55, or how about a Cessna 400?

 

[jimbtv]

Let's look at this from another angle. I own a '74 Cardinal 177RG and I purchased a good airframe, paint and interior, and old radios, from the last owner. I paid a fair price of around $67,000. Let's say that instead, I decided to go out and buy a brand new, comparably-performing aircraft. That would probably cost me around $200,000 or more. That leaves a difference of $124,000 between a new model and the aircraft I purchased.

Realistically I know that no matter how much money I put into my '74 RG, it will never be a new aircraft, but I can live with that. I also know that for half of that $124,000, I could put some really nice things into that older aircraft, and make it the way I want it. I may never get all my money back (one rarely does on aviation investments), but I will have an aircraft that is custom-configured to my liking.

It is my intention to hang on to my Cardinal for many, many years. If I were looking to flip an aircraft, pounding $60,000 additional dollars into a $70,000 airframe will not net me $130,000. But if you spread the cost of the investment over, let’s say 10 years of ownership, the investment makes much more sense. After all, you got the use of the goodies for 10 years.

So before I went out and bought a new Garmin stack for your Twinco, I’d be doing some realistic sole-searching on whether this aircraft is going to be in your long-term future or not. If the answer is yes, I wouldn’t hesitate to upgrade the panel and spread the cost over many years of safer, enjoyable flying. On the other hand, if you put $60,000 into a new panel and sell the aircraft a year from now, you will likely get around $30,000 of your investment back.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think it comes down to:

If you're looking for a tool for you, to do what you want, and to give you good value for the money you spend, an upgrade to an older airplane makes sense.

If you're looking to get the max resale return (in reality, minimum loss) on the money you spend, then getting a newer airplane is the way to go.

Caveat - if Aspen and others are successful, you may find that that sort of upgrade will practically be required to make your airplane easy to sell.

 

[SCCutler]

Bryon- I think your plan sounds like a very sound one. If you have built up confidence in the plane (and you surely have, from what you have said), and you intend to keep the plane for a while, the money spent on upgrades will be recovered in utility rather than in resale.

I fly the S-Tec 30, like it a lot. If I were starting from nil, I might get the 50 instead (extra panel hole used, costs is the same), as it has an approach mode and will intercept a localizer (the 30 will track localizer once intercepted, but will not capture). The first S-Tec with full approach including glideslope capture is the 60-2, and it does cost more, but (of course) it does more.

For me, the 30 & 50 have a rarely-appreciated advantage- they are each complete stand-alone boxes, requiring no external input (besides electricity) to act as a "shiny-side-up maintainer," something which I like in an autopilot. The 60-2 and 55X require a heading source any time you want them to play.

 

[bbchien]

Just a reminder- my stu's new STEC 30 failed today (it's 15 days old). It's NOT bulletproof.

I'd just do the KX155 and the STEC 30. Nothing more.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I am looking at keeping this aircraft for a long time. It has the right combination of speed, payload, and "economy" for me. My partner is not as enthused, but my patience wore thin when looking and I bought this one on my own. He joined in when he saw he could not afford one on his own of the type he was looking for. I need his money in order to upgrade, but I will likely have to buy him out in a few years, because I don't think he is in it for the long haul.

It makes more sense to upgrade this one, rather than buy another, but I just had a momentary pang of sheer terror laying out that amount of cash on an airplane of that age.

For me, the 30 & 50 have a rarely-appreciated advantage- they are each complete stand-alone boxes, requiring no external input (besides electricity) to act as a "shiny-side-up maintainer," something which I like in an autopilot. The 60-2 and 55X require a heading source any time you want them to play.

That is a good advantage. The draw back is they will not intercept and follow a glideslope, something I was hoping to find. But alas, I will just have to actually hand fly something for a change.

Are there any used 430's out there, say on ebay, that would be worth pursuing?

 

[bbchien]

Bryon, you're in a classic position of somewhat financially over-reaching. I would do the minimum to make it comfortable and useable for XC flight, and wait and see how it shakes out in the future (430W vs. Aspen or BOTH).

You have the platform that you need already.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Bryon, you're in a classic position of somewhat financially over-reaching. I would do the minimum to make it comfortable and useable for XC flight, and wait and see how it shakes out in the future (430W vs. Aspen or BOTH).

There really is no "430W vs. Aspen" as they do completely different things. The Aspen needs a GPS to feed it to be fully functional. The built-in GPS is only for backup.

Frankly, in Bryon's case, the KLN 94 can feed the Aspen. So, Bryon, if you can't afford the 430W, then just keep the KLN 94 for now.

I currently have a KLN94, a stand alone 122 VOR, a KY96 comm, a narco nav com, an ADF, non functional Altimatic II, and standard steam gauges.

Lose the Narco first. If it goes TU, don't even waste your time trying to get it fixed. (If you want the whole story, send me a PM.)

I have quite a few options, and want to get the most bang for the buck. So far, I am leaning towards the STEC 30 with alt hold, Aspen Avionics Pro unit, a good used KX155 to replace the VOR and Comm, and a panel refit.

Sounds good.

I had toyed with the idea of a Century 2000 or STEC 55 AP for the Glide Slope capture, but I can get more equipment for the same price if I downsize the AP.

Just be sure you're going to be happy with it and not regret it, as upgrading the a/p again later could be very expensive.

I want a 430 with WAAS, but the cost goes beyond my budget. If I can find a good used one and upgrade it to WAAS, it would be better.

The 430W is really worth it over the 430 IMHO (we did the upgrade last year) - And if you decide to do an upgrade, it's going to run you about $4500 including installation, plus the cost of the used 430 itself. So far, I haven't seen a used one cheap enough to justify buying and upgrading it, but YRMV.

You may get all of this stuff cheapest if you simply wait until you can afford what you really want. I can't think of any way to do this piecemeal without added expense, with the exception of maybe re-doing the panel to get a 6-pack.

 

[bbchien]

There really is no "430W vs. Aspen" as they do completely different things. The Aspen needs a GPS to feed it to be fully functional. The built-in GPS is only for backup.

Well, yes there is on a straight budgetary line, which is why he's asking. They're both going to be $13-14K each when you're done. Previous post is pretty sparsely worded, though, I agree.

He doesn't NEED either. He needs a good NavCom, he can do one upgrade or the other- he HAS a KLN 94 IIRC.

He has to choose- Nice glass or WAAS. If he chooses WAAS, he wants the 430W (not 430). He's already said he really wants the Autopilot, so he's gonna do that....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, yes there is on a straight budgetary line, which is why he's asking. They're both going to be $13-14K each when you're done. Previous post is pretty sparsely worded, though, I agree.

He doesn't NEED either. He needs a good NavCom, he can do one upgrade or the other- he HAS a KLN 94 IIRC.

Ah, I see. I never think in terms of budget - Anyone who owns a plane is rich, right?

If the desired end result is 430W + KX155 + Aspen + 6-pack... Boy, that's a tough call what to do first and what to delay, especially given the existing GPS.

I see two ways of doing it piecemeal:

Method A:
1) Pull the Narco, put in a KX155 (or a Garmin SL30). $?
2) Cut a new panel, rearrange instruments into 6-pack. $3000.
<pause, make money?>
3) Put in the Aspen. $10k for the Pro PFD, $8K for the MFD w/backup ADAHRS, $2400 installation give or take.
<pause, make money?>
4) Pull the KLN 94 and the stand-alone nav and comm, put in the 430W.

Method B:
1) Cut new panel, arrange 6-pack
2) Pull the Narco and the KLN94, put in the 430W.
<pause, make money>
3) Pull the stand-alone nav and com and put in the KX-155
4) Put in the Aspen.

As for the autopilot - I'd avoid the S-TEC 30 simply because you're stuck with that T/C. I'd rather replace the T/C with a backup AI in this case. Maybe go with Method A above, and put the S-TEC 60-2 in along with the KX155 and new panel.

Bryon, I guess if you look at it as wanting GPS + autopilot + glass... Well, you've got the GPS. Not the one you want, but it'll work. The autopilot is probably more important than the glass, as it'll fly the plane when you get in a pinch whereas the glass will just make it easier for YOU to fly the plane.

 

[SCCutler]

Ummm... Kent... You are forgetting a couple of material things here.

All of the S-Tec's have a TC as a mandatory component- it serves as the rate instrument. You can, if you like, mount the TC behind the panel in all except the 30 (which is one piece anyway), but I am not sure whether that is an approved installation. In any event, if you go with S-Tec, you are buying a TC in the deal, as the S-Tec TC is an integral part of the S-Tec autopilot. It was me, I'd still want it there anyway, and I think the inherent advantages of the S-Tec justify using the panel space for the TC. YMMV.

Secondly, for his first pass, he should not ditch the Narco NAV/COM (I know you hate Narco with a vengeance, but his Nav/Com is apparently working, I presume it is a 12D), but instead should lose the Narco Nav VOR/LOC only, and get a new NAV/COM (I'd say, either an SL30, and SL30 or, in a pinch, and SL30). With this strategy, he gains redundancy (a second Glide Slope) while buying something he wants to keep anyway.

He ditches the Narco NAV/COM when he upgrades from the KLN-94 to the 430W, later.

 

[jimbtv]

... For me, the 30 & 50 have a rarely-appreciated advantage- they are each complete stand-alone boxes, requiring no external input (besides electricity) to act as a "shiny-side-up maintainer," something which I like in an autopilot. The 60-2 and 55X require a heading source any time you want them to play.

I'm a little confused.

The entire S-Tec line of autopilots require the output of a turn coordinator in order to maintain straight and level flight. S-Tec autopilots are "rate-based" devices. The System 20 and 30 are autopilots that are built into the turn coordinator. All other systems rely on the output of a separate turn coordinator. In any case, all S-Tec autopilots will maintain "wings-level", as long as they are receiving electrical signals from their respective turn coordinators. Heading devices are required for heading changes.

I had a head-banging encounter with some turbulence a few months ago, which loosened my 55X in the tray. The only thing it would do was hold the aircraft straight and level.

 

[bbchien]

It's amazing how the minimal size of anything in the panel is 5 AMUs. And for any major component, AP/Glass/Waas it's 13 AMUs each. Stacks up right quick.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm a little confused.

The entire S-Tec line of autopilots require the output of a turn coordinator in order to maintain straight and level flight. S-Tec autopilots are "rate-based" devices. The System 20 and 30 are autopilots that are built into the turn coordinator. All other systems rely on the output of a separate turn coordinator.

But for further clarification - The separate turn coordinators on the S-TECs besides the 20 and 30 are still S-TEC turn coordinators.

 

[jimbtv]

But for further clarification - The separate turn coordinators on the S-TECs besides the 20 and 30 are still S-TEC turn coordinators.

To stir the pot just a bit more, I think they're actually Mid Continent devices, OEM'd to S-Tec to meet the letter of the STC. I don't think there is anything magical about their output, but for safety purposes the STC requires the S-Tec T/C. You can connect just about anyone's directional gyro though.

But yes, you will need an S-Tec turn coordinator if you are going to submit the 337 under the STC.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ummm... Kent... You are forgetting a couple of material things here.

All of the S-Tec's have a TC as a mandatory component- it serves as the rate instrument. You can, if you like, mount the TC behind the panel

That's what I meant. I swear.

And I really do think that if you only have two holes left in your 6-pack due to the addition of the Aspen PFD and MFD, the turn coordinator doesn't make the list for remaining in one of the remaining holes. Were it me, in a Twinkie I'd use those two holes for the AI and altimeter. In my "dream Swift" it'd be airspeed and altimeter as I don't want any non-solid state gyros unless they're cageable.

So, if I had any S-TEC in this setup I'd put the TC elsewhere - Be it on the copilot side or behind the panel (which I'd only do if there wasn't any more space in the panel). That wouldn't be conducive to having an S-TEC 30 if you move it far away.

Actually, another option that might work well: Bryon has a DG so that means that he currently has two nav heads. If he goes for the Pro version of the Aspen which has an HSI, he'll have a spare hole where the nav head goes, and could put the turn coordinator there. In that case, the S-Tec 30 would work well.

Secondly, for his first pass, he should not ditch the Narco NAV/COM (I know you hate Narco with a vengeance, but his Nav/Com is apparently working, I presume it is a 12D), but instead should lose the Narco Nav VOR/LOC only,

Ugh. The OP didn't state "Narco 122" and I remembered that King made a nav-only unit. Since the KY 97 comm is a King product, I thought maybe it was paired with something King. Well, you're right: The King KA122 is a "DME hold adapter" whatever that is, and the radio I was thinking of is a KN 53.

In that case - Get the new nav/com and the 430W right away. Get rid of all that Narco crap.

He ditches the Narco NAV/COM when he upgrades from the KLN-94 to the 430W, later.

Yeah, but what if the Narco Nav/Com goes on the fritz before he can afford the 430W? (Now you've done it... Now I have to tell the Narco story!) He'd either have to put in another nav/com and pull it out later, or actually have to go through the mess of trying to get the Narco fixed, which is about as enjoyable as sticking your arm through a spinning prop and slower than trying to circumnavigate the earth in an ultralight. Westbound. Twice. (And I'd put money on that.)

Narco's used to merely annoy me - Their OBS dials turn backwards from every other brand out there, and many of them block parts of the dial which are rather handy to look at (sides for DME arcs and the bottom for knowing where you are "from" the VOR when flying to it).

Then, we had one go on the fritz. In fact, the same plane had one Narco radio and one King radio, both of which malfunctioned fairly close on the calendar. (Having one of each made the backwards OBS even more annoying.) Anyway... With the King, the avionics shop slapped in a loaner, fixed the original in a week or two, then swapped them back.

The Narco, on the other hand, has to be fixed by Narco themselves (I can't believe they're still in business, and I can't believe they show up at AOPA, OSH, etc. still "showing off" their 1970's technology). So, that part of the panel had a big hole in it and the avionics shop sent the radio off to Narco. It took NINE MONTHS before they even LOOKED at the damn thing. (Formulate your own theory as to why that might be, that's an awfully long line of broken radios even if they only have one tech working on them.) It took an additional 4 months or so before the avionics shop got it back. NEVER AGAIN.

In fact, I was so disgusted by the whole experience that now when I look at buying planes, the cost of removing any Narco stuff is deducted from what I'd pay for it. At least when it's still working I can sell it to some poor bastard who's waiting for Narco to fix theirs.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I guess I should clarify a few things. While the budget doesn't have the ability to do the AP, Aspen, and the 430W, it will most certainly do two of the three. If I can find a decent used 430 upgradeable from someone who has upgraded to a 530, I may increase the budget a little more. You guys have convinced me that my original assesment was correct, upgrade, don't buy something else.

That said, this is my theory. Pull the existing turn coordinator, which I can't see the ball in anyway, and install in that hole the STEC 30. Remove the DG and move the AI to one side. Redesign the panel for a standard six pack. Install Aspen Pro unit. Install the AI to one side using hole vacated by removing the Narco 122 VOR/LOC unit. Remove KY96 Comm unit and replace it with a used KX165. Retain KLN94, which works perfectly so far, and also retain Narco Nav/Com, which is also working fine. This will give me dual glide slope indicators driven by two separate units, an EHSI with dual inputs, a turn coordinator that I can actually see, a backup AI and Airspeed indicator, a more up to date radio platform, a more standard instrument layout, and a lot less money.

I don't see the need for a 430 unless it is WAAS capable, and even then, it is minimal. Nice, yes, but not really needed. If I can get a decent used one that I can trust, I moght add it to the mix and remove the Narco Nav/Com.

 

[grattonja]

And, of course, you know that Smart Avionics up at Deck is about the cheapest/best outfit in our area to do the work for you? They also frequently have used/rebuilt instruments available, that will help to save you some $. That's who we are using for 85S's avionics work. So far, the work is well done and the price is as reasonable as one can ask, when you are talking about spending AMUs...

Jim G

 

[Aztec Driver]

And, of course, you know that Smart Avionics up at Deck is about the cheapest/best outfit in our area to do the work for you? They also frequently have used/rebuilt instruments available, that will help to save you some $. That's who we are using for 85S's avionics work. So far, the work is well done and the price is as reasonable as one can ask, when you are talking about spending AMUs...

Jim G

I do , Jim. That is who I am talking to. Are we going to see you guys at the FlyBQ?
I sure hope a charter doesn't pop up again this year.

 

[Henning]

I don't see the need for a 430 unless it is WAAS capable, and even then, it is minimal. Nice, yes, but not really needed. If I can get a decent used one that I can trust, I moght add it to the mix and remove the Narco Nav/Com.

Having that vertical guidance on approaches is reall really nice. Having flown a few now, all I can say is "smooth". I personally wouldn't consider buying an IFR GPS that wasn't capable of providing verticle guidance. With the Aspen units and other MFDs online now, I'm surprized there isn't someone filling in the market with a simple IFR WAAS GPS, no moving map or database, just the input signal driver the others need. Even after IFR certification, it could be a $2500 unit or less.

 

[Hiperbiper]

FWIW
www.Bennettavionics.com

Todd also takes trades. One man's trash...

There are a few IFR GPS that came before the 430/530. Still current, useful and supported.


Chris

 

[grattonja]

I do , Jim. That is who I am talking to. Are we going to see you guys at the FlyBQ?
I sure hope a charter doesn't pop up again this year.

We'll be there. How's that bad cylinder of yours working out? THAT will put avionics on hold for a bit, I imagine...

Jim G

 

[Aztec Driver]

We'll be there. How's that bad cylinder of yours working out? THAT will put avionics on hold for a bit, I imagine...

Jim G

I pulled it off last night and sent it away this am. I am hoping it is a minor repair. Since I am doing most of the work myself, the A&P charge shouldn't be too great. Hopefully that will fix the problem.