What to do, what to do?

John Baker

John Baker

Final Approach
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
7,471
Location
San Diego, California
Display Name
John Baker
Home Airfield
KMYF
One of the reasons I've decided to sell my airplane, actually, the main reason, is that every year, since I've been flying, I've been required to go through very extensive pulmonary and cardiac testing by the FAA in OKC.

Between the doctors who take their sweet time, and the FAA, who is apparently overloaded, it takes months (always more than two) to get a special medical waiver. Every year, additional tests have been ordered.

Every year, I've always had a little better results than the previous years, so more and different tests. When they do send me my waiver, it is back dated to November, so I only get from eight to ten months a year to be a PIC.

Then, since I am now retired, I honestly should not be trying to support an airplane.

So yesterday, I drove out to El Cajon to the gun shop to drop off my Winchester 1894 for refurbishing. It's a half hour drive from my house in my gas guzzling Jeep, and the darn place was closed for inventory.

So I drove over to Gillespie to use the head at the flight school. The owner is seriously interested in buying my Warrior. So as he is working on me, my cell phone rings, and it's another flight school that had seen my plane and said they will buy it after they look over my airplane logs.

So now I have two flight schools wanting to buy the thing, that in my heart, I would really like to keep, while the sensible thing would be to sell it.

I get home, and in my mailbox is my special medical waiver, good to 2016.
I can't believe it, they have finally decided my local medical examiner can clear me to fly.

So now I can fly whenever I want, just like everyone else, except they want me to see him every twelve months with a report from my physician on my pulmonary functioning and any meds I am taking, not a big deal at all. I have to breath into a machine once a year.

So....now I've got to decide to sell it or keep it. I can afford it, I've got the money. I can also afford to fly around four or five hours a month, but it would put a damper on all the wild partying and such. Kidding, it would just mean I will have to live a little more frugally.

As I am working my way through this dissertation, I think my problem might just solved itself. If one of the flight schools buys it, then fine. If they don't, then fine.

Thanks for the help POA.

John
 
John Baker said:
I get home, and in my mailbox is my special medical waiver, good to 2016.
I can't believe it, they have finally decided my local medical examiner can clear me to fly.

As I am working my way through this dissertation, I think my problem might just solved itself. If one of the flight schools buys it, then fine. If they don't, then fine.

Thanks for the help POA.

John
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Congrats on the surprise in the mailbox........:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:
 
Great news on the medical!



Maybe your asking price on the airplane just went up a little bit?
 
Congrats! I know it is a tough call. Maybe consider a partner or two? Then you could resume the wild partying, and such. :)
 
John, since it sounds like you do not NEED to sell, if I were you, I would keep the price on your Warrior firm and one that is worth it to you to sell. If one of the schools (or another purchaser is interested) then go ahead and sell it.

If you sell it, join Plus One at MYF and keep flying there. For the hours you fly per month, it is going to be cheaper (and less of a headache) to rent and Plus One has very reasonable rates and a couple of decent Warriors.

Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps and great news on the medical!

Andrew
 
Fearless Tower said:
John, since it sounds like you do not NEED to sell, if I were you, I would keep the price on your Warrior firm and one that is worth it to you to sell. If one of the schools (or another purchaser is interested) then go ahead and sell it.

If you sell it, join Plus One at MYF and keep flying there. For the hours you fly per month, it is going to be cheaper (and less of a headache) to rent and Plus One has very reasonable rates and a couple of decent Warriors.

Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps and great news on the medical!

Andrew
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I've been thinking about that as well. I flew one of their Warriors last month with a friend who is a member. It was an OK plane. I also flew one of their archers with a CFI about a year ago, it was a piece of junk. The propeller was out of balance so the whole plane shook like one of those old fashion weight loss machines. They do have some nice planes though. If it sells, that is what I will probably do. One thing for sure, the price ain't going down now.

John
 
tell the flight school that you want to fly it xx number of hours per year for the price of fuel.

plan it into the deal
 
Congratulations on the medical, John -- great news!

:yesnod:






----------------------------------

Pilot talk about "airplanes" and "needs" is nonsense.

Flying is on the table of "wants."

Decide what you want more or less, then budget accordingly.
 
Contrats on the medical.
Raise the price on the Warrior and allow them to bid on it. If you get a good price, there are a bazillion other good deals out there. If they don't meet your new price, then keep it.
 
Keep it. Let them pry it out of your cold, dead hands.....along with the 1894!
 
Do you want to continue to fly? If so, how much and how long? If the answers are "yes" "dunno yet but some" and "as long as it's fun" (or similar) then don't sell all of the airplane. You probably don't need to retain all of the ownership, but some ownership insight-years better than any rental deal.

Having now hung around the airport for 50+ years, I can testify that people who sell their airplanes with the notion that they can rent much cheaper don't do so, or at least more than once. They quickly find the hassle and BS of dealing with the silly-ass rules, regulations, check-outs, currency, scheduling, fee structure, daily minimums, poor maintenance, raggedy condition and many other hurdles outweigh whatever fun they might have, and simply become inactive.

If you're ready to walk away and find something else to fill your time (which doesn't sound likely to me based on your prior posts) then selling it is a viable option. Otherwise, strike that from the list of options and figure out how to keep some of it.

Whatever you do, don't lease it to a flight school or FBO. They will hammer it into dogshlt within a month.
 
wabower said:
Having now hung around the airport for 50+ years, I can testify that people who sell their airplanes with the notion that they can rent much cheaper don't do so, or at least more than once. They quickly find the hassle and BS of dealing with the silly-ass rules, regulations, check-outs, currency, scheduling, fee structure, daily minimums, poor maintenance, raggedy condition and many other hurdles outweigh whatever fun they might have, and simply become inactive.
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While that is probably true in many areas, the flying club where John is located has about the least amount of hassle as any other place I've seen. ~$30 per month dues. Comparatively cheap rates. A one time, very simple checkout, 1 hr x-country minimums, only additional requirement is a yearly flight review. About as hassle free as you can get. The ONLY reason that I bought an airplane while based there is that I wanted to build tailwheel time and we didn't have any tailwheels in the club based at MYF. Doesn't mean that you won't find a beater here or there in a fleet of over 50 airplanes (38 based at MYF), but Plus One is really hard to beat.
 
Wayne. You raised a good question. Prior to yesterday, after almost four months of waiting on my medical, I did start thinking about this whole flying issue. It wasn't positive. Or perhaps it's just a defensive mechanism we all have so we wont feel so bad when it ends.

Since pretty much mastering the handling of my Warrior and adopting all the rules and regulations as my own, in other words I don't have to give them much thought anymore, I just follow them. Flying from point A to B eating lunch, then flying back to A really isn't all that exciting, especially with the costs involved. It's something to do, little else. It's like driving a car, only with fewer places you can go for lunch.

Your right, If I sell the airplane, I will probably fly every once in a great while, if at all.

I will not do a lease back, your right about that also, I would end up with a bunch of scrap aluminum.

If I was younger, I could take up aerobatics, that would keep it interesting. If I was wealthier, I would buy a STOL aircraft, so I could land anywhere I wanted, desert washes and such, beaches down south, but I'm not.

But now I have that medical, and almost no hassles to keep it. That does change my thinking. Now, in my mind, flying is fun again. What a quandary.

John
 
John Baker said:
But now I have that medical, and almost no hassles to keep it. That does change my thinking. Now, in my mind, flying is fun again. What a quandary.

John
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Guess it comes down to the equation:

Enjoyment <greater than> Cost

A judgemental call for sure, and one only you can answer. I hope the answer is "keep it"!! :D

Gary

PS - congrats on the mediacl issues.
 
RJM62 said:
Leaseback with x-number of hours/month for your own use?
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I actually discussed that with the school owner yesterday. I don't think I could handle seeing the airplane I've been so picky about, degenerate into one of those flying wrecks we all know as trainers. The school owners partner looked at it a few days ago and said it was too nice of a plane to be used as a trainer. It's more of a private owners plane.

John
 
Yeah, I wouldn't put it on leaseback. Turn a perfectly good airplane into iron filings in no time, well aluminum filings actually.

I think the shared ownership route would be a better way to go, if you want to keep flying.
 
John Baker said:
I actually discussed that with the school owner yesterday. I don't think I could handle seeing the airplane I've been so picky about, degenerate into one of those flying wrecks we all know as trainers. The school owners partner looked at it a few days ago and said it was too nice of a plane to be used as a trainer. It's more of a private owners plane.

John
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It sounds like you need to take some of the flight school's rental business...

If you let someone put 5-10 hours a month on your plane, have them pay a dry rental fee to cover maintenance (maybe $35/ hr ) plus maybe split the hangar costs with you, you'll have some extra dough and the airplane will be much happier flying 10-15 hrs a month instead of 4 or 5.
 
Too bad you're so far away. I'd love to work out a co-ownership arrangement. There would probably be a few hours a month I wouldn't be flying it. :) Seriously, though -- if I were in your position, I'd look for a co-owner or two. Everybody takes care of the plane (unlike a flight school where NOBODY takes care of the plane), nobody has to soak up all the cost of ownership.
 
John, from my perspective, you're trying to mix two types of evaluation which don't belong together.

Should you continue flying? If it brings you enjoyment, of course you should.

Does that require owning your own airplane? Technically, no.

Is there a value in preserving the relationship you have with a particular, inanimate piece of hardware? Personally, I would feel no shame in admitting there is! Based on what you say about the observations of others, that plane has become part of your identity.

Even if you decide assigning a financial value to the emotional attachment is silly, there are very good reasons not to sell right now. The market is depressed, and if your plane is in nice shape and you're maintaining it well, I would expect it to rise in value as the market recovers.

Also, the next five years are likely to bring growth in the availability of used LSAs, and trading into one might become an option worth considering in 2016.
 
PW_Plack said:
John, from my perspective, you're trying to mix two types of evaluation which don't belong together.

Should you continue flying? If it brings you enjoyment, of course you should.

Does that require owning your own airplane? Technically, no.

Is there a value in preserving the relationship you have with a particular, inanimate piece of hardware? Personally, I would feel no shame in admitting there is! Based on what you say about the observations of others, that plane has become part of your identity.

Even if you decide assigning a financial value to the emotional attachment is silly, there are very good reasons not to sell right now. The market is depressed, and if your plane is in nice shape and you're maintaining it well, I would expect it to rise in value as the market recovers.

Also, the next five years are likely to bring growth in the availability of used LSAs, and trading into one might become an option worth considering in 2016.
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There's something to be said for that idea. If you're strictly flying for the joy of it and rarely need to actually get anywhere quickly, then possibly selling your airplane and buying a fuel-sipping LSA with lower overall costs might be a good idea.

If you're comfortable doing so, you could also take the Repairman course and be able to do most of your own maintenance, as well the annual, by yourself, further reducing total cost of ownership.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
...selling your airplane and buying a fuel-sipping LSA with lower overall costs might be a good idea...
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But even then, I'd bet that five years from now, used LSAs will be more plentiful and cheaper than they are today, and John's plane in nice shape will be worth more than it is today.

Fuel costs with an LSA will be lower, but it will be no cheaper to hangar, and probably no cheaper to insure.
 
Today I went out to the airport, now that I'm a real pilot again. I found some new flaws in the paint, so I had the painter take a look. He is going to take care of it next week.

I decided I should get it up in the air and do a few touch and goes, it's been a while.
I took the small runway, for some reason it is easier for me with my one eye. So I take off, winds variable @ 6. I'm on downwind for 28L, winds are now 330 @ 12 G 17.

I make my first landing in over a month. Kind of sloppy, but the touchdown was smooth. The next two landings are with winds gusting to 18 from 330. I'm on downwind for the third landing and I remember this is the thirteenth. I decide I'm now current, and make it a full stop, why push it? All my landings were smooth, but not what I would call greasers. A few years ago they would have been greasers for sure.

I stopped and filled the tanks at the SS pump, then started it up again. I hear a funny tapping noise from up front of the firewall. I try it in four different wind positions, it's still there. So I park in my spot and get the mechanic out. He says it could be a loose spark plug, a loose exhaust, or a cracked cylinder. They just put in new plugs, I had a new exhaust system put in two years ago, so now I'm all panicky about that cracked cylinder option.

He looks everything over, mumbling and shaking his head, then has me fire it up. No noise, everything is fine.

Tomorrow I'll fly it over to Gillespie with the logs and the 1894 carbine, weather and mood permitting, and see what happens with the two flight schools, drop the 1894 off, and head back.

All and all, a nice day. I walked away from it, it still works, what more could I want?

John
 
FlySince9 said:
So what was causing the noise? (or did I miss something)
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I don't know, when he looked at it the noise was gone. I told my CFI buddy who holds every rating you can think of, except maybe astronaut, thinks it was swamp noise. The kind of noise you always hear when flying over large swamps, oceans, or at night.

He is probably right. I hadn't flown by myself in almost four months, or flown at all in over a month, so I was probably more attuned to the sounds of the airplane.

The next time I fly, I will stay in the pattern for a while to be sure.

John
 
Having now hung around the airport for 50+ years, I can testify that people who sell their airplanes with the notion that they can rent much cheaper don't do so, or at least more than once. They quickly find the hassle and BS of dealing with the silly-ass rules, regulations, check-outs, currency, scheduling, fee structure, daily minimums, poor maintenance, raggedy condition and many other hurdles outweigh whatever fun they might have, and simply become inactive.
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I think Wayne is right. I have seen this happen quite a bit, and it has happened to me, personally. My advice would be to sell the Warrior and buy an LSA like a Champ or Taylorcraft or maybe even an Ercoupe. You have four years to find exactly the right airplane.
 
somorris said:
I think Wayne is right. I have seen this happen quite a bit, and it has happened to me, personally. My advice would be to sell the Warrior and buy an LSA like a Champ or Taylorcraft or maybe even an Ercoupe. You have four years to find exactly the right airplane.
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That's too sad...
 
This is the saddest thread I've ever read, and not for the OP. It makes me think of my own mortality and I realise I'm not going to be able to fly forever and that's sad.

I am happy Mr. Baker finally got his extended waiver. There's good news. I'd keep the dang plane but that's emotion talking as I'm a sucker for happy endings.
 
I would sell it and buy something you can fly SP (my choice is a Luscombe) so you can just let your medical expire next time.
 
Henning said:
I would sell it and buy something you can fly SP (my choice is a Luscombe) so you can just let your medical expire next time.
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That won't work. Whenever they send me a medical waiver, the letter starts with, "Your application for a 3rd class medical has been denied."

Then it goes on with the "However" phase of it.

Under that drivers license medical, you can never have been denied for a medical, ever.

It is too late for me to use that tactic. I would have had to done it before my medical had been denied.

So, if your an older fart, and your starting to worry about it, do not go to your next AME appointment. Do not apply for another third class, or whatever you hold, medical certificate. Sell that big fancy airplane, and buy a Light Sport.

John
 
John Baker said:
That won't work. Whenever they send me a medical waiver, the letter starts with, "Your application for a 3rd class medical has been denied."

Then it goes on with the "However" phase of it.

Under that drivers license medical, you can never have been denied for a medical, ever.

It is too late for me to use that tactic. I would have had to done it before my medical had been denied.

So, if your an older fart, and your starting to worry about it, do not go to your next AME appointment. Do not apply for another third class, or whatever you hold, medical certificate. Sell that big fancy airplane, and buy a Light Sport.

John
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There is always a motorglider...
 
Well, here is what is happening.

I had already offered my plane to two different flight schools for 30K. Then I received my new, four year medical waiver, so I wasn't sure if I wanted to sell anymore. Realistically, with my retirement income, I have no business trying to maintain and own an airplane, but it is sort of doable, if I'm careful with my money.

I decided if neither of the schools bought it, I would keep it. Yesterday, school #1 spent the whole day going over the plane and it's records, they could not find anything wrong except for an inspection plate under the left wing they were not sure should exist. They opened it and found nothing awry. They did not indicate they were going to buy it.

School #2, having already inspected the plane, spent a few hours going through the logs. Tonight one of the owners said they are going to buy it, he just had to check with his partner who he claimed most always went along with his plane purchase recommendations. The school seemed quite busy, about five students in the office when I went in at 5:00pm

He said he would let me know tomorrow. I don't know :confused: if I'm happy :D or sad. :sad:

John.
 
John, do you remember how much fun you had on the cross-country you wrote about on this forum? Why not just climb in the plane and go for a great adventure?

You've worked too hard and dedicated too much time to getting this far to just sell it and walk away without a grand finale.

v If you're going to quit, go out after having done something that you'll always remember and for which some of your friends will think you're smack-dab crazy. And all of your pilot friends will know how much fun you had and be tickled that you did it.
 
John, that medical waiver says you were denied uner 67.311 and 67.313 but granted under 67.401.

That is not a denial, that is a special issuance. All that counts is that you were issued. The bugaboo about denial is when they DON'T give you the special, now THAT is a denial.

All you have to do to protect against LSA jeopardy is to not reapply when you know the tests won't get you another special.

A SPECIAL issuance is an ISSUANCE, NOT a denial. Think hard, I think you're making a mistake. I remember your cross county flight....

Lastly, if you're waiting months- you have the wrong AME. A good AME can callup, documents in hand, and issue you during the phone call.
 
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It's not my AME, it's the medical center in Oklahoma City. But the medical is not going to be an issue for four more years. They are no longer demanding the huge battery of tests.

I did not know that all I have to do is not re-apply to get an LSA medical. I thought once they said you have been denied, that is it, even if they do give you a temporary waiver. In this latest case, the temporary waiver is for four years instead of just one year, backdated.

I will have to check this, but if you are correct, I'm done with AMEs. Now I need a Cub. No really. :D

John
 
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wabower said:
John, do you remember how much fun you had on the cross-country you wrote about on this forum? Why not just climb in the plane and go for a great adventure?

You've worked too hard and dedicated too much time to getting this far to just sell it and walk away without a grand finale.

v If you're going to quit, go out after having done something that you'll always remember and for which some of your friends will think you're smack-dab crazy. And all of your pilot friends will know how much fun you had and be tickled that you did it.
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I just had the planes paint all detailed out, not a flaw anywhere. With my luck, I'd screw something up. If they don't buy it, perhaps I'll do just that.

John
 
I don't have the resources to own. I instead go the club route. Therefore, I don't have the full picture of what owning really means, financially. With that said, if it were me, and it was "doable," as you indicated, I would just keep it. I think that the fact that you are wrestling with the decision is reason enough to keep it. IMHO when it is really time to sell it, you won't have such a hard time deciding what to do. FWIW...
 
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