What to do before buying

signu127

signu127

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Houma, LA
Display Name
Display name:
Sig-Nu
If somebody is in the market for a plane what are some things to search for before even starting the buying process. If there is a link on here I didn't find it with a search. There is no Carfax for planes so are there websites that track a planes history?

thanks!
 
There is in fact a Carfax for planes. It's called Planefax.

signu127 said:
If somebody is in the market for a plane what are some things to search for before even starting the buying process. If there is a link on here I didn't find it with a search. There is no Carfax for planes so are there websites that track a planes history?

thanks!
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
There is in fact a Carfax for planes. It's called Planefax.
Click to expand...

that is funny...did not know that. Any free sites? I am still in the early stage of this. I found one I like, asked the seller to send me the info he has but I would like to run the numbers and see if anything comes up before going any further.
 
Brian Jacobson wrote a good book about the inspection and maintenance issues in buying an airplane, and J. Scott Hamilton covers the legal aspects very well in his book.

Jacobson, Brian M. Purchasing & Evaluating Airplanes.
Hamilton, J. Scott. Practical Aviation Law, 4th ed.

Both available from numerous internet booksellers.
 
Ron,

Any particular reason you recommend Hamilton's 4th edition instead of the most recent 5th edition?
 
There is no clear cut links, but if you search "purchase" or "buying a plane" here there is a wealth of information posted. You may have to sift through a bunch of other stuff but it is there. I just completed a purchase and took delivery last week and this site was invaluable as to learning how to go about the process.
 
...and other than a FAA damage history report there is not a whole lot of info that is reliable on line about a plane. There maybe one or two things you do find, but probably more you won't.

First step is to go kick a bunch of tires. If you find a plane you like, then take the logs to an independent A/P to see what he can find and get an inital assessment just based on the logs...if it clears that hurdle, then you can talk purchase agreement and inspections with an A/P that has NO relation or connection to the plane or seller....just leave yourself plenty of contingents so you can walk at any point if there is something you don't like.
 
Also check into type clubs. Good examples are Cardinal Flyers for the C177 and C177RG line; the American Yankee Association and Grumman Gang for Tigers, Cheetahs, Travelers, and other Grumman aircraft; MooneySpace for Mooney aircraft; and Beechtalk for Beechcrafts.

Hang out in their forums for a while, ask some questions, and you'll pick up quite a bit of knowledge of what to look at, look for, and what is a good thing and bad thing.

Once you have a short list of types you're investigating, try to find local owners who will talk with you and perhaps take you on a flight or two. "Trying the aircraft on for size" in this manner can be a tremendous aid in determining if this is a good fit for you, or one you should pass on.
 
Kicking tires is a huge WOT unless you do it from your chair at home. Research and understand the market and determine what you are willing to pay for the planes in which you have interest if they are "as advertised."
 
Kick the tires in the sense that the FIRST step should be a visual inspection of the plane cuz what the pictures show or the seller describes and what the condition of the plane is can be two different ballgames. You ain't gonna know if the plane really has 70's avocado green shag carpeting and the panels are falling off till you lays eyes on it.

Being relatively new to aviation when I purchased and not knowing what to expect, my "kicking the tires" process involved looking around and at other planes even just on my field that weren't even for sale to know what to look for in condition and what to expect in different vintages.
 
Last edited:
How about finding out who really owns the aircraft.??

The legal owner vs the last registered owner.

know what each are, and what they mean to you as a buyer.
 
Doesn't matter when you're looking, and too many potential variables in the mix.




Tom-D said:
How about finding out who really owns the aircraft.??

The legal owner vs the last registered owner.

know what each are, and what they mean to you as a buyer.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Doesn't matter when you're looking, and too many potential variables in the mix.
Click to expand...

it matters when you try to register the aircraft, and you don't have the right name on the bill of sale.

Last registered owner dead, no one has the proper authority to sell their property.

that gets ugly.
 
Doesn't matter now, that's a detail for the title company to resolve. Save your energy for other more-important things related to the search.

Tom-D said:
it matters when you try to register the aircraft, and you don't have the right name on the bill of sale.

Last registered owner dead, no one has the proper authority to sell their property.

that gets ugly.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Doesn't matter now, that's a detail for the title company to resolve. Save your energy for other more-important things related to the search.
Click to expand...

Why not now? How much money would you spend chasing an aircraft with a messed up title?
 
okay so assuming the title is clean...I was trying to get an idea of what to search for BEFORE seeing the plane or kicking the tires. It seems like this info isn't readily available online...that is what I was wondering. I actually searched the tail numbers on Google and 2 links came up from the NTSB. It gave NTSB identification numbers and what looks like a small report. Maybe I can use that number to see a more detailed report of the incident?
 
signu127 said:
okay so assuming the title is clean...I was trying to get an idea of what to search for BEFORE seeing the plane or kicking the tires. It seems like this info isn't readily available online...that is what I was wondering. I actually searched the tail numbers on Google and 2 links came up from the NTSB. It gave NTSB identification numbers and what looks like a small report. Maybe I can use that number to see a more detailed report of the incident?
Click to expand...

That report will give you date and time frame, use that info to inspect the maintenance records to see what was actually repaired.

Most times this type of accident is of no concern now, if it was bad enough to require a major repair form to be filed then the FAA will have a 337 on file in the history records of that "N" number.

So back to your question, I'd get the history records on a CD from OKC
 
honestly, I'd probably throw a couple of the planes on a forum and ask what people think about it. On mooneyspace, I see potential owners post a link and see what comes of it. You'll be surprised how many things there are to look for. Some apply to all planes, but some are very brand specific.

after that, look it over yourself and have a trusted mechanic do a prebuy.
 
the first thing I would do before buying or even looking is to secure a hangar. It doesn't matter how good a plane you find if you have nowhere to put it.
 
JHW said:
the first thing I would do before buying or even looking is to secure a hangar. It doesn't matter how good a plane you find if you have nowhere to put it.
Click to expand...

haha, true. I put my name on the hangar list, and as luck would have it, I found my mooney right when my name came up for a hangar (3 years later).
 
None. Not a dime changes hands or is at risk until the seller escrows documents and the the buyer escrows a deposit.

Tom-D said:
Why not now? How much money would you spend chasing an aircraft with a messed up title?
Click to expand...
 
rbridges said:
honestly, I'd probably throw a couple of the planes on a forum and ask what people think about it. On mooneyspace, I see potential owners post a link and see what comes of it. You'll be surprised how many things there are to look for. Some apply to all planes, but some are very brand specific.

after that, look it over yourself and have a trusted mechanic do a prebuy.
Click to expand...

Also, in a smaller community like Mooney Space, there is always the chance that someone knows the exact aircraft you're asking about.
 
wabower said:
None. Not a dime changes hands or is at risk until the seller escrows documents and the the buyer escrows a deposit.
Click to expand...

How do you know when you want to go that far as to commit money to escrow? wouldn't you like to know who owns it prior to that?
 
It doesn't matter what they tell you and you'll never know for sure until somebody runs the title search all the way through until the moment the new bill of sale is filed. Bank could have repo'd, dealer could have purchased but not filed, individual could have purchased from his LLC to clean up sales/use tax issues, yada yada. Simply no reason to worry about it until you're ready to proceed.


Tom-D said:
How do you know when you want to go that far as to commit money to escrow? wouldn't you like to know who owns it prior to that?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
It doesn't matter what they tell you and you'll never know for sure until somebody runs the title search all the way through until the moment the new bill of sale is filed. Bank could have repo'd, dealer could have purchased but not filed, individual could have purchased from his LLC to clean up sales/use tax issues, yada yada. Simply no reason to worry about it until you're ready to proceed.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm saying, get that out of the way first. rather than chase an aircraft that you won't buy anyway.

two things you can't fix cheap. messed up title, and a lien.

get the title search, get the history CD, then proceed.
 
You're obviously going to do whatever you want. If you think it's important, knock yourself out. I want to know if a deal can be made before I start sorting the fly-shlt from the black pepper.

Tom-D said:
That's what I'm saying, get that out of the way first. rather than chase an aircraft that you won't buy anyway.

two things you can't fix cheap. messed up title, and a lien.

get the title search, get the history CD, then proceed.
Click to expand...
 
You have to use all the available resources to put the pieces together to build a story on the plane that checks out. A $75 title search is one of those critical pieces in my opinion that can derail the whole process. That was one of the first things that I did to make sure that I wasn't gonna waste my time starting the whole process with the plane only to find out there was a title problem later. Get the easy stuff outta the way first so you can continue to add to the puzzle pieces to complete the whole picture.
 
And then the owner turns out to be an idiot and you can't make a deal.

So then you find another plane, spend another $75 and start over again.

How long until the novelty wears off?

Shawn said:
You have to use all the available resources to put the pieces together to build a story on the plane that checks out. A $75 title search is one of those critical pieces in my opinion that can derail the whole process. That was one of the first things that I did to make sure that I wasn't gonna waste my time starting the whole process with the plane only to find out there was a title problem later. Get the easy stuff outta the way first so you can continue to add to the puzzle pieces to complete the whole picture.
Click to expand...
 
I used a broker to find the planes and get the process going with the sellers. Some think this was a waste of money. I don't. As a first time buyer, I didn't know all of the gotchas and traps to buying a plane. I also used an escrow service. They handled the title search, made money transfer a breeze and took care of getting the plane properly registered in my name.

If I were to buy another plane, I would do it exactly the same way.
 
wabower said:
And then the owner turns out to be an idiot and you can't make a deal.

So then you find another plane, spend another $75 and start over again.
Click to expand...
YEP, and if you have your money tied up in escrow, it takes time to clear that and in the mean time, I've bought the other aircraft on your list.

you have a 50k budget, you'er looking at 3-4 30K aircraft, would you like your money held up in escrow on one aircraft?

Not me.
 
You've obviously never used escrow. When/if you do, maybe you'll understand how it works.

You've spent money on the come, I still have all of mine in an account at the escrow company's bank. If I can make a deal with the seller, I can react quicker than you can to secure it. If I can't, I can reassign the escrow deposit to a different plane by email in 10 seconds and beat you again.

There's no time contest that I won't win, and I won't spend a dime until the time I get something back other than a title search for a plane I don't want and that is of absolutely no value to me or anyone else.


Tom-D said:
YEP, and if you have your money tied up in escrow, it takes time to clear that and in the mean time, I've bought the other aircraft on your list.

you have a 50k budget, you'er looking at 3-4 30K aircraft, would you like your money held up in escrow on one aircraft?

Not me.
Click to expand...
 
I used a broker to find the planes and get the process going with the sellers. Some think this was a waste of money. I don't. As a first time buyer, I didn't know all of the gotchas and traps to buying a plane. I also used an escrow service. They handled the title search, made money transfer a breeze and took care of getting the plane properly registered in my name.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, I think this is an excellent direction to go, especially for a person new to buying airplanes. Just be sure to check references on the broker :).
 
Arrow115 said:
I used a broker to find the planes and get the process going with the sellers. Some think this was a waste of money. I don't. As a first time buyer, I didn't know all of the gotchas and traps to buying a plane. I also used an escrow service. They handled the title search, made money transfer a breeze and took care of getting the plane properly registered in my name.

If I were to buy another plane, I would do it exactly the same way.
Click to expand...

my plane's seller used a broker. didn't cost me a dime (directly), and he took care of all the paperwork.
 
somorris said:
In my opinion, I think this is an excellent direction to go, especially for a person new to buying airplanes. Just be sure to check references on the broker :).
Click to expand...

Definitely find a reputable broker with good references. Too many horror stories out there about less than honest brokers. I would use a broker for my next plane just for the time factor alone. While I am working at my job, he is searching for what I want and calling perspectives. I got involved on the deals that seemed like a good fit.

Wayne, I agree with you about having funds in escrow. When the prebuy fell through on my first plane, I just emailed the escrow company and reassigned it for another plane. Sellers also took me a lot more seriously when they saw the money in escrow after we had a purchase agreement.
 
You're absolutely right. Sellers always respond favorably to confirmation of "funds on deposit and ready to close" by an independent third party.
Arrow115 said:
Definitely find a reputable broker with good references. Too many horror stories out there about less than honest brokers. I would use a broker for my next plane just for the time factor alone. While I am working at my job, he is searching for what I want and calling perspectives. I got involved on the deals that seemed like a good fit.

Wayne, I agree with you about having funds in escrow. When the prebuy fell through on my first plane, I just emailed the escrow company and reassigned it for another plane. Sellers also took me a lot more seriously when they saw the money in escrow after we had a purchase agreement.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
You've obviously never used escrow. When/if you do, maybe you'll understand how it works.
Click to expand...

With that understanding, I'll never know.

When I buy aircraft I know what I want, and know what I see, when I see what I want, I buy it.

That's how I bought 34V, $5k for a good old 170 that is worthy of a restoration.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Brian Jacobson wrote a good book about the inspection and maintenance issues in buying an airplane, and J. Scott Hamilton covers the legal aspects very well in his book.

Jacobson, Brian M. Purchasing & Evaluating Airplanes.
Hamilton, J. Scott. Practical Aviation Law, 4th ed.

Both available from numerous internet booksellers.
Click to expand...


Ron...I actually found a plane that I like. I have all the logs from 1989 but the plane was built in 1969. The owner sent me all the logs and pictures from when the plane was damaged by a storm on the ground. It looks like the plane hasn't been flown much over the last 20 years, maybe 10-20 hours per year. I don't know if 20 hours a year is a good or a bad thing. The plane is beautiful but I know that doesn't mean much.
 
And you were the guy squealing like a twelve-year-old girl when you were being scammed on an RV deal by some guy in Houston. There's simply no valid reason for a buyer (or seller) to expose themselves to the inherent financial risks of rolling-stock deals when avoiding it is both cheap and easy.

Tom-D said:
With that understanding, I'll never know.

When I buy aircraft I know what I want, and know what I see, when I see what I want, I buy it.

That's how I bought 34V, $5k for a good old 170 that is worthy of a restoration.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
And you were the guy squealing like a twelve-year-old girl when you were being scammed on an RV deal by some guy in Houston. There's simply no valid reason for a buyer (or seller) to expose themselves to the inherent financial risks of rolling-stock deals when avoiding it is both cheap and easy.
Click to expand...

What are the steps to setting up the kind of escrow account you're referring to?

I've got two potential buyers for Atlas, and both have asked for advice on setting up an escrow account. Frankly, I've never done it that way, so I have nothing to offer by way of advice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top