What should I ask this flight school?

Andrew Byrd

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This is not the typical thread about what to ask a flight school. I am about to complete my instructor certificates, and I'm researching schools to see where I'd like to instruct. I've already decided my flight school is not an option due to the terrible pay and poor management. I'm just curious what questions I should ask these schools that I'm considering applying to? Thanks!
 
This is not the typical thread about what to ask a flight school. I am about to complete my instructor certificates, and I'm researching schools to see where I'd like to instruct. I've already decided my flight school is not an option due to the terrible pay and poor management. I'm just curious what questions I should ask these schools that I'm considering applying to? Thanks!

Considering just about every school you will contact will beg you to work there, I believe you can dictate how you want to play the game. Look at the equipment, look at the logs, talk to the kids. Any one of them seem hinky, move on. Should be enough to decide.
 
Question to you. Are you going to be a contractor or an employee? Big difference and the questions I would ask each would not be the same.
 
I'm not an instructor or FBO but if it was me, I'd ask what you'll be doing when you're not instructing. Do they also expect you to clean the bathrooms and run the snow plow?
 
My first question would be do they pay their CFI's as employees or contractors. If its employees then we move on to more questions. If its contractor then its ok thanks bye but that's just me.
 
Your reply isn't all that helpful IMO. What are the major differences in the type questions you would ask?



Why? What's wrong with being a contractor?

You can’t even talk compensation until you have established which you are. The contractor will net 30% less than an employee given the same rate of compensation.

As a contractor, I need a written agreement before I begin work.
 
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This is not the typical thread about what to ask a flight school. I am about to complete my instructor certificates, and I'm researching schools to see where I'd like to instruct. I've already decided my flight school is not an option due to the terrible pay and poor management. I'm just curious what questions I should ask these schools that I'm considering applying to? Thanks!

Assuming you are applying to work as an employee, I would want to know.

1. Do you have enough instructional work for me to pay my bills? If not, do the have any Part 91 or 135 commercial work you can supplement your income with. Do they have opportunities for teaching ground schools , working the desk in the FBO or even cleaning aircraft on bad weather days.

2. What is their scheduling system?. What is their policy of student no shows? Will you set your work availabilty or will the school? Can you instruct outside the flight school.

3. What is their insurance limits and are you fully insured as an employee under that policy?

4. What are their currency requirements? Are you charged for currency flights to hold you job. Will they assist with cost of additional training.

5. What benefits do they offer? Healthcare, paid time off, rental discounts?

6. What is their policy on paying pre/post ground instruction
 
From an FBO perspective -- It's typical for any new CFI to be desperate, poor and drowning in debt. Usually the CFI will take the first, most immediate number on offer -- which if he's shopping -- will be as a contractor due to lower overhead for the FBO.

Some FBOs won't appreciate you questioning them or negotiating. This is a huge red flag.

If you care about things other than your net pay, by all means, interview them in detail about their dental plan. Otherwise I'd just look to negotiate a generous rate (and DO figure out when you get paid -- flight only? flight+ground? your rate times hours billed to the client?) and figure out which employer was the busiest. I'd probably want to talk to the other CFIs instead of management for the real scoop. Particularly since CFIs are hard to hire again and you have the upper hand. See if you can look at the flight schedule for the prior month or three.

Our flight school paid $X per hour, as billed to the client, CFIs were contractors. We didn't have "career programs" that made the hours per student hard to track. We started as $15/hr (2005) and ended at $34 (2012). and had bonuses for passed checkrides and automatic pay increases every 500 hours of dual given. I always presented our "starting pay" initially, but would go up another 20% or so for a bright candidate.

We had two "CFI droughts" where we were forced to hire anyone who came through the door -- always corresponding to low minima at the 135 and airline outfits. It seems quite "drought-y" these days, so it's worth a little effort to squeeze a good price.

I'd also ask on one of the pro pilot boards like https://airlinepilotforums.com for some recent information on schools in your area, especially if you're targeting a larger Part 141 outfit.

$0.02 :)
 
Why? What's wrong with being a contractor?
Nothing is wrong with it as long as you're actually working as a contractor and you're being compensated i.e. more than an employee would. So if the flight school is going to expect you to teach and only teach i.e. no cleaning up the office or working the counter or washing the planes. And they're going to let you set your own schedule and rates, then being a contractor is fine. But in most cases, they want you to be an employee but pay you as a contractor which is illegal and a rip off.
 
Ok. You still haven't said what questions you would ask. Help the OP.
Most newbie instructors don't know what they don't know. Before you get ANY farther, grab the book the The Savvy Flight Instructor and look around for a school where you'll be around instructors that you would like to emulate and make friends of them. My CFI mentor said he thinks the whole system is backwards and new CFIs should be buddied up with older instructors until they have their own experience to draw from and at this point I think that was very wise of him. If you think about it, and dig around a little bit, this is exactly what the USAAF figured out decades ago in WWII - sending experienced combat pilots back to teach the new classes of cadets. I don't want to spoon feed rote questions for you to ask the school, but if you want to ask questions, ask the school questions that will tell you if you will learn and thrive in their environment while also making sure you get enough to eat. If you become a good instructor, you can branch out on your own after you've gotten your feet under you. Take good care of your students and you'll be able to go where you eventually want to get.
 
My first question would be do they pay their CFI's as employees or contractors. If its employees then we move on to more questions. If its contractor then its ok thanks bye but that's just me.
That's another con of the school I'm currently at! And looking at the IRS rules for independent contractors our instructors don't qualify as a contractor!!
 
Ok. You still haven't said what questions you would ask. Help the OP.
That was actually a big help! It was something I'm concerned about, but completely forgot to add that on my list.
 
Great pointers guys! I really appreciate it. I should have included that I'm looking at LiFT Flight Academy which is owned by republic. I've talked with one of their representatives and here's what I've asked so far and the responses. I've added a couple after reading these responses that I'll be asking on Monday.

1. How many hours can I expect to fly per month?

6/day weather permitting most likely 5 days per week

2. Do I get paid for ground instruction?

Yes, any time interacting with students also health vision and dental

3. How much ground instruction will I be giving?

Part 141 ppl ir cpl, minimal ground instruction

4. How often are flights cancelled due to icing or cold weather?

About 10 days per month

5. How many students can I expect to have?

6 per cfi same for a/c

6. How many does the school have?

330 per year

7. How many aircraft does the school have now and how many will they be receiving?

6 now, 1st twin this week, full by spring 2020 1-2 per month to 50 a/c, DA-42 VI & DA40 NG

8. Do you have your own maintenance facility including maintainers with IA?

4 IA’s plus Director of Maintenance

9. Will I qualify for a guaranteed position at Republic?

No, but most likely, able to interview at convenience

10.What is the student’s schedule?

Guaranteed 3 times per week, ground school around that

11.Does airline traffic conflict with training?

Sometimes. Take two students per block, switch at regional airport then return with other student. Depart before 1400 and cannot return until after 1600 due to FedEx busy times.

12.Is the training part 141 or 61?

141

13.What will my typical day consist of?

Either early morning flights or afternoon flights

14.Is the school working towards in-house practical exams?

Yes, soon

15.What is the Chief Pilot’s schedule like?

On site 0700-1630

Director Flight Ops 0900-1800

Director of maintenance available 24hrs, on site within 30 minutes

16.Does pay increase for multi instruction?

No
 
Why arnt your training where you want to work?
 
Why arnt your training where you want to work?
I jumped the gun on my current school, and I actually got a job as a dispatcher which has opened my eye to A TON of things I'm not a fan of. Honestly my school isn't that bad as a student, but getting to know the instructors there, primarily foreigners who are stuck there due to visa stuff, I've learned the dark side of the school and they all tell me I should get out ASAP.
 
That's another con of the school I'm currently at! And looking at the IRS rules for independent contractors our instructors don't qualify as a contractor!!

This is depressingly common. Small businesses hire people to work and call them "independent contractors" so that they don't have to pay the employer's portion of FICA, medicare, unemployment, etc. The IRS busts these businesses all the time.

Your school WILL eventually get hammered, but that's no skin off your back. In fact, there's a possibility that you could get a tax refund in that case.
 
This is depressingly common. Small businesses hire people to work and call them "independent contractors" so that they don't have to pay the employer's portion of FICA, medicare, unemployment, etc. The IRS busts these businesses all the time.

Your school WILL eventually get hammered, but that's no skin off your back. In fact, there's a possibility that you could get a tax refund in that case.

Not sure about all the time.
 
Not sure about all the time.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm sure the IRS does bust businesses on this, but I've never known of a case. Certainly none of the shysters I've ever worked for were ever looked at. I always assumed it took a complaint from an employee or ex employee to even get it on the radar of the IRS.

If I were working for someone that was illegally paying me as a contractor and I reported them to the IRS for it, I might win, but I wouldn't expect to stay employed very long. And given that aviation is such a small community relatively speaking, I would not expect it to be easy to get a job anywhere else if the potential new employer happened to find out I called the IRS on a former employer. Now that's just my speculation and I could be completely wrong. But its definitely a possibility and because of that, it would take a very unique individual to make that call and not worry about the consequences IMO. So businesses do it, and they get away with it for years.

I worked several years for an employer in a business that was largely seasonal. Pretty much every year after my first he would tell me 'my accountant keeps telling me I'm going to end up in jail if I keep paying you on a 1099 so I'm going to have to give you a W2 this year.' Then it wouldn't happen. Next year, same thing. That was almost 20 years ago. I strongly suspect he's still doing the same **** to some poor sap that's trying to build hours. If no one turns him in, the IRS never looks at it.
 
I was thinking the same thing. I'm sure the IRS does bust businesses on this, but I've never known of a case. Certainly none of the shysters I've ever worked for were ever looked at. I always assumed it took a complaint from an employee or ex employee to even get it on the radar of the IRS.

If I were working for someone that was illegally paying me as a contractor and I reported them to the IRS for it, I might win, but I wouldn't expect to stay employed very long. And given that aviation is such a small community relatively speaking, I would not expect it to be easy to get a job anywhere else if the potential new employer happened to find out I called the IRS on a former employer. Now that's just my speculation and I could be completely wrong. But its definitely a possibility and because of that, it would take a very unique individual to make that call and not worry about the consequences IMO. So businesses do it, and they get away with it for years.

I worked several years for an employer in a business that was largely seasonal. Pretty much every year after my first he would tell me 'my accountant keeps telling me I'm going to end up in jail if I keep paying you on a 1099 so I'm going to have to give you a W2 this year.' Then it wouldn't happen. Next year, same thing. That was almost 20 years ago. I strongly suspect he's still doing the same **** to some poor sap that's trying to build hours. If no one turns him in, the IRS never looks at it.

Frankly I’ve worked for more than a few places where I was 1099ed, and I wouldn’t call them “shysters”, aviation has such small margins and the government has large and ever growing regulations, fees, taxes,etc, also QOL wise looking back 1099 or w2 wouldn’t have made that much of a difference to me.

When ever I find myself back near where I worked I stop in and say high, maybe grab a beer with the old boss man.

And I agree, if you take a 1099 gig eyes wide open and later try to jam the small biz up with the IRS, I got no issue with you getting blackballed as it was well earned. With the exception of one school I worked at briefly, I have nothing to say but good things for my past employers.



Long and short if you don’t want to be 1099ed tell the folks, if they say no, LEAVE.
 
Great pointers guys! I really appreciate it. I should have included that I'm looking at LiFT Flight Academy which is owned by republic. I've talked with one of their representatives and here's what I've asked so far and the responses. I've added a couple after reading these responses that I'll be asking on Monday.

1. How many hours can I expect to fly per month?
snipped

These were all excellent questions.

I'd ask, if it's important to you, what other avenues of career progression do they offer? My flight school feeds numerous regionals and cargo outfits in the area and it seems they are always talking to someone new to provide another pipeline.
 
These were all excellent questions.

I'd ask, if it's important to you, what other avenues of career progression do they offer? My flight school feeds numerous regionals and cargo outfits in the area and it seems they are always talking to someone new to provide another pipeline.

No, dont buy into that feeds the regional sales pitch.

Once you meet ATP mins theyll hire you if you have a pulse, as its a low paying job.

Find the cheapest way to get your CPL in the shortest amount of time.
 
No, dont buy into that feeds the regional sales pitch.

Once you meet ATP mins theyll hire you if you have a pulse, as its a low paying job.

Find the cheapest way to get your CPL in the shortest amount of time.

Agreed, to a point, but having THEM come to you to do interviews and set up talks is more convenient.

btw, I'm a student, not a CFI, so my viewpoint is from the outside looking in.
 
Agreed, to a point, but having THEM come to you to do interviews and set up talks is more convenient.

btw, I'm a student, not a CFI, so my viewpoint is from the outside looking in.

Many will do most of the interview over the phone these days, beggars not being choosers and all that.

Look at the CBA pay, the “bonuses” read up on the QOL, and make a choice.

Still that ain’t going to be your right out of school job anyways, probably at best forward speed, job #2 or 3
 
Not sure about all the time.

OK, I should say, "it COULD happen," not it WILL happen. But I am aware of several cases.

The first is from my hometown, many years ago, when I lived in NC. Guy running a dry cleaning business paid his people as contractors and was eventually hammered for it. He lost the business for back taxes.

There are others: a neighbor of mine, a carpenter/handyman who hired people on the fly to help him, and didn't take out taxes on them. He ended up on a repayment plan to the IRS.

Radio stations, especially small town jobs, have been busted for this, too. I know of a couple of cases.

The most common scenario is that a disgruntled worker gets annoyed at how much he/she has to pay at tax time. They ask around -- maybe even call the IRS -- and are told that they were an employee, and that the person paying them should have withheld. In that case, the IRS goes after the business that had them working "on contract."

Yes, it DOES happen all the time. I've seen it. It may not happen right away, and yeah, it's possible that a really lucky businessman will never get caught. But it's the equivalent of speeding in heavy traffic, in a construction zone, with cops all over the place keeping an eye on things. :)
 
OK, I should say, "it COULD happen," not it WILL happen. But I am aware of several cases.

The first is from my hometown, many years ago, when I lived in NC. Guy running a dry cleaning business paid his people as contractors and was eventually hammered for it. He lost the business for back taxes.

There are others: a neighbor of mine, a carpenter/handyman who hired people on the fly to help him, and didn't take out taxes on them. He ended up on a repayment plan to the IRS.

Radio stations, especially small town jobs, have been busted for this, too. I know of a couple of cases.

The most common scenario is that a disgruntled worker gets annoyed at how much he/she has to pay at tax time. They ask around -- maybe even call the IRS -- and are told that they were an employee, and that the person paying them should have withheld. In that case, the IRS goes after the business that had them working "on contract."

Yes, it DOES happen all the time. I've seen it. It may not happen right away, and yeah, it's possible that a really lucky businessman will never get caught. But it's the equivalent of speeding in heavy traffic, in a construction zone, with cops all over the place keeping an eye on things. :)

Possible sure, probable not so much, at least in aviation. It’s a small industry and going that route would come at a very high cost to the employee

Pyrrhic victory
(/ˈpɪrɪk/PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat.
 
Frankly I’ve worked for more than a few places where I was 1099ed, and I wouldn’t call them “shysters”,
Well that's the difference between you and me. If they want to you be an employee and they want to treat you as an employee and they want to hold you to the expectations of an employee, then they need to pay you as employee. That their margins are low and that the costs of paying someone as an employee are higher for them does not excuse them breaking the law at your expense. If the extra costs you had to pay as an IC didn't hurt you, goodie for you. Those costs sure as **** made life more difficult for me.

I took those jobs back then because I was desperate and I was willing to let them take advantage of me. And just like you, I worked for some really nice people. Great folks. Criminals who victimize their employees but nice folks none the less.

So you have your opinion and I have mine. Neither matters to anyone besides ourselves. But to the OP or anyone else in the future reading this who might be in the same situation I will say only this. Its tough when you're starting out in aviation and the need to find hours can make you make choices you wouldn't otherwise make. So there are valid reasons why you might decide to agree to work at employee for someone that wants to pay you as an independent contractor. Those decisions won't make you a bad person nor will they necessarily make you someone that makes poor choices.

But if you choose to do it, know this. You will be willingly choosing to work for someone who does not bat an eyelash at violating federal laws put in place to protect you. You kind of have to ask yourself, if they're willing to break those laws and screw you in the process, what other laws are they ok with breaking and in what other ways will they be willing to screw you.

Put another way, if you're going to do it go ahead and do it. But don't kid yourself into believing they on your side or have your interests in mind. They do not. They're screwing you and they're perfectly ok with doing it. Work for them but don't make friends with them and don't for a moment forget that they are making a profit off of screwing you.
 
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I know that being a business owner makes one an evil sh*tlord who prays at the altar of orange jesus these days ... but... a CFI, in the typical flight school scenario, is pretty darn defensible as a 1099 contractor. Office and maintenance staff less so.

We survived an NRP ("up to the elbow") audit of our FBO in 2012 and employee designations were not questioned. This included CFI, office staff, linemen, and maintenance personnel. I didn't worry about the CFIs, but the office staff were questionable in my own mind, despite my CPA's assurance. I think us paying them partially in flight time was actually a benefit to our cause.

If I had miscalculated, it was probably worth low six figures to the IRS to burn us, so I don't think they'd have overlooked it if they thought they'd win. But who knows. :dunno: I think classroom-style CFIs are harder to pigeonhole as contractors.

Anyway if you pull up the helpful IRS brochure at https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1779.pdf then I think the only "gray" area for a CFI is opportunity for loss -- but one could argue spending on materials and flight currency constitutes risk of loss.
 
Well that's the difference between you and me. If they want to you be an employee and they want to treat you as an employee and they want to hold you to the expectations of an employee, then they need to pay you as employee. That their margins are low and that the costs of paying someone as an employee are higher for them does not excuse them breaking the law at your expense. If the extra costs you had to pay as an IC didn't hurt you, goodie for you. Those costs sure as **** made life more difficult for me.

I took those jobs back then because I was desperate and I was willing to let them take advantage of me. And just like you, I worked for some really nice people. Great folks. Criminals who victimize their employees but nice folks none the less.

So you have your opinion and I have mine. Neither matters to anyone besides ourselves. But to the OP or anyone else in the future reading this who might be in the same situation I will say only this. Its tough when you're starting out in aviation and the need to find hours can make you make choices you wouldn't otherwise make. So there are valid reasons why you might decide to agree to work at employee for someone that wants to pay you as an independent contractor. Those decisions won't make you a bad person nor will they necessarily make you someone that makes poor choices.

But if you choose to do it, know this. You will be willingly choosing to work for someone who does not bat an eyelash at violating federal laws put in place to protect you. You kind of have to ask yourself, if they're willing to break those laws and screw you in the process, what other laws are they ok with breaking and in what other ways will they be willing to screw you.

Put another way, if you're going to do it go ahead and do it. But don't kid yourself into believing they on your side or have your interests in mind. They do not. They're screwing you and they're perfectly ok with doing it. Work for them but don't make friends with them and don't for a moment forget that they are making a profit off of screwing you.

All I care about is my take home pay and the QOL it gives me, and how that first job (or two) helps me grow as a greenhorn pilot.

I’ve had a few of these “evil” owners go to bat for me when they didn’t need to, as well as help me majorly professionally when they had zero requirement to do so.


Again, where’s the gun?
Who forcing you to work for them?
Don’t like the arrangement leave or don’t take the offer, if it’s bad across the bord free market will fix it.
 
The CFI that taught me worked a schedule. He had to be there whether he had students or not. While he was there, if he was not teaching, he was expected to answer phones and work the counter. When he taught, he taught students that were assigned to him. When he was paid, he was paid by the flight school, not the student, and he was paid a rate decided by the flight school, not him. There is no doubt he was an employee. But he was paid as though he was a contractor who could pick his own students and his own schedule and his own rates. I don't think that's unusual in the flight school game.
 
Again, where’s the gun?
Who forcing you to work for them?
Don’t like the arrangement leave or don’t take the offer,
I believe I made exactly that very clear in my first post in this thread.

if it’s bad across the bord free market will fix it.
If that were true, there would be no need for labor laws. And yet they exist. Hmmm.....
 
I believe I made exactly that very clear in my first post in this thread.

If that were true, there would be no need for labor laws. And yet they exist. Hmmm.....

Sorry, but historically free market works much better, sorry you worked for people you feel took advantage of you, but your experience I don’t think speak for the majority in the industry.

The one bad school I worked for, well they were sketchy, I went my own way in short order, sure enough not 3-4mo later they shut their doors for good and a few old students I kept in contact with told me lawsuits were coming down on that clown of a owner too.

Free maket works pretty well dude
 
Sorry, but historically free market works much better
The free market helps. Sometimes. But not always. The bottom line is the practice is illegal. 'nuff said. Just because you're ok with it doesn't mean its ok.
 
The free market helps. Sometimes. But not always. The bottom line is the practice is illegal. 'nuff said. Just because you're ok with it doesn't mean its ok.

Jury nullification and all..

But in my career, I’m thankful for my first few gigs and wouldn’t want to try to make it harder for folks to employ green horns.
 
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