What plane should we buy?

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golfmogul

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golfmogul
Suggestions please for what we should be looking to buy? It’s been a long time since I researched planes and I’m just getting back into the research.

Situation:
- Three friends just finishing our training and will all soon have our PPL then we will sell the Piper Cherokee 140 we’ve Co-owned and been using to train
- Our new plane will also be owned by the same three friends and needs to be able to carry 4 adults + light baggage for each of the 4 and (ideally but maybe unrealistically?) enough fuel to get from Salt Lake City to Las Vegas with that full load (370 miles)
- the plane will be based out of South Valley Airport in Salt Lake City Utah (so high altitude and mountains to clear to get pretty much anywhere)
- Most missions will be flying around Utah or to Las Vegas and (with stops) around the southwestern US
- Budget for the purchase is $450-600k
- We’d like something relatively new, fixed wheel, sporty/nice looking, fast when it’s carrying a light load, all glass avionics, etc

Ideas?

Thanks in advance
 
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Bo, Saratoga, Cirrus. Let’s say you find one of those three that are nearly par with avionics and condition. What will your annual maintenance expectations be? My best guess is that the Saratoga will win that contest.
 
Well, four ACTUAL adults (not FAA adults) rules out the SR22 and the Bo, so I guess youre stuck with the 210! Not that Im biased...
 
JCranford said:
Well, four ACTUAL adults (not FAA adults) rules out the SR22 and the Bo, so I guess youre stuck with the 210! Not that Im biased...
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Fixed gear rules out the 210
 
golfmogul said:
S
- We’d like something relatively new, fixed wheel, sporty/nice looking, fast when it’s carrying a light load, all glass avionics, etc
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Really, all signs are pointing towards a turbo Staionair. Maybe not super sporty looking, but it will haul your four peeps+bags and have the turbo for mountains/high DA.
 
Piper Malibu but it’s retract
 
Cessna 206 Turbo Stationair would fill the bill nicely. Not as fast as the 210 but will haul 4 "full-sized" adults, lots of baggage at speeds up to 160kts. The turbo is a nice feature to have if your going to do a lot of flying around the west.
 
PA28-235 meets all your requirements.
 
JCranford said:
Well, four ACTUAL adults (not FAA adults) rules out the SR22 and the Bo, so I guess youre stuck with the 210! Not that Im biased...
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But doesn’t the SR 22T have the capacity for four adults with light luggage?
 
golfmogul said:
But doesn’t the SR 22T have the capacity for four adults with light luggage?
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There's seats (yes, it has four) and then there's useful load. Quick googling shows:
  • Crew: one
  • Capacity: four passengers
  • Length: 26 ft 0 in (7.92 m)
  • Wingspan: 38 ft 4 in (11.68 m)
  • Height: 8 ft 11 in (2.72 m)
  • Airfoil: Roncz
  • Empty weight: 2,269 lb (1,029 kg)
  • Gross weight: 3,600 lb (1,633 kg)
  • Fuel capacity: 92 US gallons (348 litres)
3600 lbs gross, less 2269 lbs empty gives 1331 load, but that's with no fuel. Full tanks wwould be 92 gals * 6.8 lbs/gallon or 625.6 lbs. So now 1331 - 625.6 = 705.4 lbs of useful load (with full fuel). If you know four adults with luggage that weigh less than or equal to 705.4 lbs, yes you can use it that way. That's roughly 175 lbs per person plus bags.
 
Nowhere is it written that you MUST fill the tanks. 90 gallons is what? roughly 6 hours flight time? 4 people are not going to want to sit that long in a light airplane.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Nowhere is it written that you MUST fill the tanks. 90 gallons is what? roughly 6 hours flight time? 4 people are not going to want to sit that long in a light airplane.
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Exactly my thought. Wouldn't plan to fly more than 3.5 hrs in one leg w/passengers, so I'll do the math that way & see how it comes out. Also, the numbers you used ($3600 lbs gross weight) ... which generation SR22T was that for? I know that at some point (I think starting in 2013 with G5) it increased by 200 lbs -- more research I need to do. Thx for the replies
 
golfmogul said:
Exactly my thought. Wouldn't plan to fly more than 3.5 hrs in one leg w/passengers, so I'll do the math that way & see how it comes out. Also, the numbers you used ($3600 lbs gross weight) ... which generation SR22T was that for? I know that at some point (I think starting in 2013 with G5) it increased by 200 lbs -- more research I need to do. Thx for the replies
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1) absolutely you don't need to fill the tanks.
2) You need specific W&B for your aircraft but that was the wiki page entry for hand waving numbers.

Managing not having full fuel is not quite as simple as "Fill 'er up!" every time but certainly can be done. You just need to either plan to always fill to the tabs (or equivalent) or burn off enough before taking the whole crew.

But even then, figures I've seen are around 18 gal/hour. So you're at 63 gallons for 3.5 hours, no reserve. That's 428 lbs. and now you're in ~900 lbs useful load or 225 per person including bags. Could work depending on the people...
 
golfmogul said:
But doesn’t the SR 22T have the capacity for four adults with light luggage?
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Cirrus lists the useful load as 1246lbs. And goes on to state that with 3 hrs fuel plus 45 minute reserve you have 892 lbs left. So yes, technically the SR22T could do it if everybody ws reasonably sized (and you dont catch a bad headwind that dicks with your fuel burn calculations.
 
jsstevens said:
There's seats (yes, it has four) and then there's useful load. Quick googling shows:
  • Crew: one
  • Capacity: four passengers
  • Length: 26 ft 0 in (7.92 m)
  • Wingspan: 38 ft 4 in (11.68 m)
  • Height: 8 ft 11 in (2.72 m)
  • Airfoil: Roncz
  • Empty weight: 2,269 lb (1,029 kg)
  • Gross weight: 3,600 lb (1,633 kg)
  • Fuel capacity: 92 US gallons (348 litres)
3600 lbs gross, less 2269 lbs empty gives 1331 load, but that's with no fuel. Full tanks wwould be 92 gals * 6.8 lbs/gallon or 625.6 lbs. So now 1331 - 625.6 = 705.4 lbs of useful load (with full fuel). If you know four adults with luggage that weigh less than or equal to 705.4 lbs, yes you can use it that way. That's roughly 175 lbs per person plus bags.
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Is that bare bones? Useful load for a G5 Turbo is often closer to 1,100-1,200 lbs; de-ice / FIKI, AC, and more cut into the weight. I flew one with just over 1,200 lbs of useful load. I've seen others listed at only 1,080 lbs. :eek:

That said, they are great planes. We flew a 2002 SR22 for years and the four of us had a blast. Now, that was my 5' 5" wife and two daughters that were in high school and were both athletic and light in a SR22 with just over 1,100 lbs of useful load and 81 gal tanks. I now own a share of a normally aspirated SR22 G2. If useful weight is a key element, you will need to shop with that in mind and may need to not have some of the options.
 
jsstevens said:
There's seats (yes, it has four) and then there's useful load. Quick googling shows:
  • Crew: one
  • Capacity: four passengers
  • Length: 26 ft 0 in (7.92 m)
  • Wingspan: 38 ft 4 in (11.68 m)
  • Height: 8 ft 11 in (2.72 m)
  • Airfoil: Roncz
  • Empty weight: 2,269 lb (1,029 kg)
  • Gross weight: 3,600 lb (1,633 kg)
  • Fuel capacity: 92 US gallons (348 litres)
3600 lbs gross, less 2269 lbs empty gives 1331 load, but that's with no fuel. Full tanks wwould be 92 gals * 6.8 lbs/gallon or 625.6 lbs. So now 1331 - 625.6 = 705.4 lbs of useful load (with full fuel). If you know four adults with luggage that weigh less than or equal to 705.4 lbs, yes you can use it that way. That's roughly 175 lbs per person plus bags.
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6.8#’s per gallon? Should be 6


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Without retract, if you can handle the fuel burn of the T206 it definitely has the rest covered. Seating is pretty nice for 4 and that big door to load stuff including bicycles, etc.

Seems like some very high DA flying. Shouldn't the OP reserve (not use) 10% of gross for high DA flying. In other words, up that high and hot you don't want to be right at book numbers - right? Wouldn't that make the SR22 even less enviable for 4 + baggage.

How much do fuel costs matter. Lets say $5.50/gal.

The T206 is gonna burn 20GPH (man that is hard to think about). However if it does 160kts (Mindy was just doing a bit over 160TAS at 14,500) they are knocking out that trip in about 2.3hrs. So 46gal one way. Round up to 100gal round trip. So $550 each trip from Utah to Vegas and back.

In the Bo (fully loaded) I am guessing it would be closer to 15GPH and similar trip times so about 35gal one way or round up to 75gal round trip. So about $415.

So about $135 more per trip to avoid the retract. Or every 5th trip is free with the Bo :)

Which climbs better fully loaded?
 
For 370 mile trips the Cirrus should be a no brainer unless you each weigh 250 lbs. The FIKI will be a big advantage for your trips, not sweating out exposure to ice is a good thing, as long is you have a plan to get out of it if it happens. I fly 22s with normally aspirated engine, rentals. They are always fueled to the tabs, 60 gallons, which gives an airplane endurance that typically out distances my bladder. I usually true out at about 170 knots at 4k, a little faster at 8k. So 370 miles should take a little less than 2 hours, giving a reasonable reserve. It would really help if you gave what type of passenger weights you are talking about though.
 
Torque beast said:
6.8#’s per gallon? Should be 6


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You’re right. 6.01. Bad memory on my part. Jet-A is 6.79 lbs/gallon. Don’t fuel with that or gross will be the least of your problems.
 
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