What is worng with this purchase logic?

[Shawn]

Looking for a new to me plane...in my budget I am most likely gonna wind up with something that will get me by pretty basic on the avionics side and be able to train IFR in...like if I just had two axis auto pilot I would be happy. I got spoiled training in a G1000, but that isn't gonna happen on my budget.

Now, I found a plane that is loaded in avionics well beyond what I would expect even with a partial glass panel...but it is 500 hours past TBO. Year, model, airframe hours, interior, color, everything is exactly what I would want...plus WAY better avionics than I would expect to be able to afford.

So my question is (assuming prebuy passes with flying colors)...what is wrong with the logic of purchasing a plane plus figuring in $25k overhaul costs and still be relatively within my budget vs. buying a plane that has an engine that is not totally run out but will most likely wind up with older avionics at the same price?

Keep in mind...this is my first plane and looking for more experienced perspectives.

 

[docmirror]

What engine, in what aiframe?

 

[JHW]

all used engines of any age are a crap shoot. And we all fly behind a used engine.

For that matter newly OH'd engines are a crap shoot too but at least you can see what's in there with your own eyes. I tend to only buy "run-out's" and OH them myself so I can have some confidence in them.

 

[dans2992]

Yes, if your budget allows, I'd say this is even a _benefit_. Just be sure you know what an overhaul (plus the extras) is likely to cost.

 

[dukeblue219]

in my budget I am most likely gonna wind up with something that will get me by pretty basic on the avionics side and be able to train IFR in...like if I just had two axis auto pilot I would be happy.

Yes, I fly with the AP most of the time, but having a two-axis autopilot is still a luxury item to a lot of folks.

 

[Shawn]

Engine is 0-470-R in an early 70's C182. I figure $25K overhaul costs. Anyone have actual figures for an overhaul or factory reman assuming no surprises?

 

[dukeblue219]

Engine is 0-470-R in an early 70's C182. I figure $25K overhaul costs. Anyone have actual figures for an overhaul or factory reman assuming no surprises?

Out of curiosity, how long ago (in real time) was the engine last overhauled? What's the TT on the airframe?

 

[poadeleted21]

Sounds like a good way to get the plane you want, the avionics you want and the engine you want all within your budget.

The only downside that I can see is that even if you're only writing the checks for major work, frustration can be high for a while, but you get an engine that you picked out.

 

[poadeleted21]

Engine is 0-470-R in an early 70's C182. I figure $25K overhaul costs. Anyone have actual figures for an overhaul or factory reman assuming no surprises?

My IO-470N was $30,000, engine shop but not a factory overhaul. That's fuel injected and little higher powered, not sure how that figures into the overhaul cost.

I can send you the invoice and the 0SMOH sign off if you want to see a recent one.

 

[Shawn]

4500 total time.

Sounds like a prop strike in 2002 with engine disassemble and inspection but not enough to qualify for "overhaul" hence the owner running 500hrs past TBO. Current compression 66/66/66/66/62/62. No firewall or other damage. Has full logs

 

[Shawn]

I can send you the invoice and the 0SMOH sign off if you want to see a recent one.

That would be awesome...will PM you with email.

 

[dell30rb]

4500 total time.

Sounds like a prop strike in 2002 with engine disassemble and inspection but not enough to qualify for "overhaul" hence the owner running 500hrs past TBO. Current compression 66/66/66/66/62/62. No firewall or other damage. Has full logs

That might be a pretty good deal. I know its over TBO but how many hours since the tear down? If a couple hundred, bet the engine is in good shape.


IMO have a good mechanic look at it. If it has been flying regularly and passes an inspection and oil analysis I say keep flying it. Put the money in the bank and overhaul it when it needs it.

 

[tmyers]

Has it been sitting much? The compressions are low but that can happen if an engine has not been flown much and can even come up after running some. Still, I would have some money set aside for what appears to be the probable replacement of some jugs.

 

[jpower]

Yes, I fly with the AP most of the time, but having a two-axis autopilot is still a luxury item to a lot of folks.

What's an autopilot?

 

[EdFred]

What is worng with this purchase logic?

What engine, in what aiframe?

What you did there. I see it.

 

[EdFred]

My IO-470N was $30,000, engine shop but not a factory overhaul. That's fuel injected and little higher powered, not sure how that figures into the overhaul cost.

I can send you the invoice and the 0SMOH sign off if you want to see a recent one.

And you passed on my plane?

 

[Shawn]

Yes, I fly with the AP most of the time, but having a two-axis autopilot is still a luxury item to a lot of folks.

One of my main missions will be about a 275nm trip and after flying the G1000 with coupled autopilot, I got really spoiled!

I know its over TBO but how many hours since the tear down? If a couple hundred, bet the engine is in good shape.

Looks like about 500 hours ago for the tear down.

IMO have a good mechanic look at it. If it has been flying regularly and passes an inspection and oil analysis I say keep flying it.

Yeah, I would run it through a full annual inspection as opposed to just a prebuy. About $600 more for a full annual (which is due in 5 months anyway) from the local AP who is a certified Cessna facility. Seems worth it when spending this amount of cash.

What's an autopilot?

The guy sitting in the right seat that takes over when you get tired!

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

As long as you are paying a proper appraisal and properly discounting for the run out engine I see no problem buying this plane.

I would get a full annual from a different mechanic than did the last few annuals. I would pull the low compression cylinder and check the cam lobs and what you can see with a jug off. If nothing to be concerned about I would IRAn the removed jug and replace it or at least put no rings on it and go from there.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

4500 total time.

Sounds like a prop strike in 2002 with engine disassemble and inspection but not enough to qualify for "overhaul" hence the owner running 500hrs past TBO. Current compression 66/66/66/66/62/62. No firewall or other damage. Has full logs

Ehh, my personal plane sits more then I like to admit, I've NEVER seen numbers that low on mine.

In this market find a engine no more then half TBO with good numbers.
Loc and gs, 2 vors, standard 6 pack with xpdr and you're set.

Maybe a 430W or 400W and call it a day.

Any how the HECK do your prop strike a trike 182???
Sounds like it was flown by a idiot, how knows how much other dumb chit he did in that plane.

More people want your money then that plane, I'd keep looking.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Looking for a new to me plane...in my budget I am most likely gonna wind up with something that will get me by pretty basic on the avionics side and be able to train IFR in...like if I just had two axis auto pilot I would be happy. I got spoiled training in a G1000, but that isn't gonna happen on my budget.

Now, I found a plane that is loaded in avionics well beyond what I would expect even with a partial glass panel...but it is 500 hours past TBO. Year, model, airframe hours, interior, color, everything is exactly what I would want...plus WAY better avionics than I would expect to be able to afford.

So my question is (assuming prebuy passes with flying colors)...what is wrong with the logic of purchasing a plane plus figuring in $25k overhaul costs and still be relatively within my budget vs. buying a plane that has an engine that is not totally run out but will most likely wind up with older avionics at the same price?

Keep in mind...this is my first plane and looking for more experienced perspectives.

500 past TBO, with low compressions? And you're going to fly it?

You just gotta ask yourself...do you feel lucky?

 

[JHW]

500 past TBO, with low compressions? And you're going to fly it?

You just gotta ask yourself...do you feel lucky?

Guess i'm lucky. 1600 hours and 16 years beyond factory recommended OH. Plus i'm feeding it autofuel and mostly flying at 6ft agl. Death wish for sure.

 

[poadeleted21]

Ehh, my personal plane sits more then I like to admit, I've NEVER seen numbers that low on mine.

In this market find a engine no more then half TBO with good numbers.
Loc and gs, 2 vors, standard 6 pack with xpdr and you're set.

Maybe a 430W or 400W and call it a day.

Any how the HECK do your prop strike a trike 182???
Sounds like it was flown by a idiot, how knows how much other dumb chit he did in that plane.

More people want your money then that plane, I'd keep looking.

Those aren't low compressions for a big bore conti. with the TSMOH on his engine, they're something to brag about. Especially if they aren't "Let's max these suckers out to sell it" compressions.

 

[poadeleted21]

4500 total time.

Sounds like a prop strike in 2002 with engine disassemble and inspection but not enough to qualify for "overhaul" hence the owner running 500hrs past TBO. Current compression 66/66/66/66/62/62. No firewall or other damage. Has full logs

If the mechanic used a master orifice compression check, those are "OK" compressions. At my annual a week ago the official continental number for "pass" was 46.

 

[Shawn]

I wouldn't have high expectations for the longevity of this engine. If I got another couple of hundred hours outta it I would be happy. When I look at purchase price plus the overhaul expense, I am not finding anything that is in as good of condition and equipped as this is for the same total price...at least from initial contact and info that was provided to me....and at that I am seeing burnt rust interiors with shag carpeting in other planes in my price range!

Downer is that it is on the other side of the country from me. I have an experienced 17 year pilot and possibly an A/P going to look at it for me, then if they say it is not a POS and worth pursuing, I will spring for a full annual from an independent shop to see what I am getting into before I write the check.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Those aren't low compressions for a big bore conti. with the TSMOH on his engine, they're something to brag about. Especially if they aren't "Let's max these suckers out to sell it" compressions.

Those numbers are low and that time is high for the price.

Why date the fat girl with braces when you can get the prom queen for the same effort??

Like I said, pass

 

[poadeleted21]

Those numbers are low and that time is high for the price.

Why date the fat girl with braces when you can get the prom queen for the same effort??

Like I said, pass

According to continental, those numbers are on the high side, 46 would have been given the OK last week. Didn't see a price, but those compressions are A-OK for that engine.

 

[tmyers]

I didn't realize the gold engines had the lower compressions, but then I have flown the gray variety most of the time.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I guess I didn't see the price? What is the price?

You have a prop; engine; airplane and avionics. You can buy a nice avionic pak and pay extra for engine and prop or buy a nice engine and add the avionics.

I perfer to buy a run out engine and pay for a run out engine. That way I know what I got. I have run my engine 3500 hrs 1500 past TBO. So it is possible if you check out the engine and prop that they may require little expense in the first years. But if you buy a mid time or low time bird with no avionics you are surely going to have to spend $50k on avionics to get it to the same place. But then you might find that the engine has problems. No guarantee buying a low time mid time engine that it is going to be trouble free.

SO I disagree with the experts above.

 

[Jthamilton]

Are you thinking long term with the aircraft or selling again in couple years?

Consider the ability to resell with those numbers unless you OH the engine, then how much will you lose for doing so. If you can get helluva deal and feel confident you won't lose your butt, get it inspected by someone you trust and use ift for building time and getting your IR taken care of.

Good Luck

 

[Shawn]

This would be along term plane. Something that I can train IFR in as well as accomplish a lot of my missions and be able to travel in. That may change as my experience changes, but I am going for the buy once, cry once mentality rather than trying to "step up" later. I have already significantly increased my budget range knowing that I would not ultimately be happy with I though I could initially spend. Either way I would watch that I am not loosing my arse if I needed to get out of it for some reason.

I would be buying it WITH the expectation of putting a new engine in sometime soon then knowing exactly what I have. Price range is in the $58k range. Add $25k for an engine and I am not finding much close to that total with the current configuration and not close to TBO. I starting pricing out adding what it has currently has to a minimally equipped bird and I am coming close to an additional $50K. Assuming the air frame is in good condition, I am waiting for the "catch".

There is still a LONG way to go on this one!

 

[wabower]

I've owned several similar planes. If the price is right I think buying the run-out makes sense and would immediately find an STC for converting the O engine to an IO.

 

[LDJones]

Those numbers are low and that time is high for the price.

Why date the fat girl with braces when you can get the prom queen for the same effort??

Like I said, pass

I think he found the prom queen with crooked teeth and has budgeted for the braces. I'd go for it.

 

[dell30rb]

500 past TBO, with low compressions? And you're going to fly it?

You just gotta ask yourself...do you feel lucky?

Those compressions are fine, and the engine has 500hrs since a full tear down and inspection. I'd fly it.

 

[Banjo33]

I think he found the prom queen with crooked teeth and has budgeted for the braces. I'd go for it.

Nice!

 

[Fearless Tower]

Has it been sitting much? The compressions are low but that can happen if an engine has not been flown much and can even come up after running some. Still, I would have some money set aside for what appears to be the probable replacement of some jugs.

The compressions are actually pretty good for a -470 500 hrs past TBO.

Sounds like a great airplane. If you buy it and plan to fly it until you really do need to overhaul, just make sure you squirrel away the O/H money you have away so it is there when you need it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Shawn]

I think he found the prom queen with crooked teeth and has budgeted for the braces. I'd go for it.

I was gonna say I found the prom queen with the nice dress but need to budget for the implants!

...oh, so wrong...I know...

 

[jtheune]

I'm in the midst of having my 470U overhauled by Zephyr Engines in FLA. It's 22k with overhauled cylinders. It would be 3600 more for new. We went with the overhauled because the cylinders were replaced in a top overhaul 3 years ago and have 350 hours on them.

For 93K, being a trike has nothing to do with a prop strike, you don't have to hit the ground for a prop strike.

 

[DaleB]

Any how the HECK do your prop strike a trike 182???

Land long, run off the end of the runway. Turn around in the grass. Try to taxi back onto the runway without stopping to make sure your route is good... drop the nosewheel into a chuckhole and hit the prop on the edge of the runway.

That's what happened to our club's 182, about TEN HOURS after a major OH. Prop and hub were toast, crankshaft cracked. And no, I didn't do it! But it can be done, if you work at it.

 

[denverpilot]

If the mechanic used a master orifice compression check, those are "OK" compressions. At my annual a week ago the official continental number for "pass" was 46.

That makes our 80s with one at 73 sound downright stellar on our O-470-S.

I'm not sure I'd be happy to hear 40s or 50s if we ever got that report.

 

[denverpilot]

I've owned several similar planes. If the price is right I think buying the run-out makes sense and would immediately find an STC for converting the O engine to an IO.

That's be nice. Does Texas Skyways still do that?

Seems like the PPonk conversion is better bang for the buck even if it won't keep up with the IO. Any thoughts on that?