What I learned about flying today

BrianR

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BrianR
A few things, actually. Decided to make a 40 minute flight to Glens Falls for lunch at the excellent on-field restaurant. I took along another pilot - the first time I've flown with another pilot, which proved to be a good idea.

There was some convective activity predicted, which was to remain well north of our destination until later in the day. It was one of those typical northeast summer days, clear in the early morning followed by the puffy white clouds forming by mid-morning. It was an uneventful flight over.

Enjoying lunch, we heard one of the waitresses comment, "Oh my God, it is black to the northwest." Unable to see in that direction from where we were seated, she got our immediate attention. Sure enough, it looked pretty foreboding, with lightning and obvious heavy rain in the distance. A quick glance at the NEXRAD returns confirmed what we could clearly see...a large red blob not far away and moving southeast, toward the airport.

However, the sky was clear and blue to the south. The area of thunderstorms and precipitation seemed to be progressively increasing in size, with more forming behind. Naturally, there was a strong desire to get out of town, as I had to work Saturday night, and neither of us wanted to be stuck three hours by ground from home. I asked the other pilot what he thought, and he said, "If we go right NOW, it should be fine." Now, this guy is very experienced and a very conservative, safety-minded pilot, so I agreed. Had I been alone, I'm not sure what I would have done.

So after the quickest preflight I've ever done, and a rolling runup, we launched on runway 1, right at the heart of the storm. At 400 feet I started a right turnout into a quick 180 as the rain started pouring from the sky. In a few miles we were in the clear, and circumnavigating the storm, headed southwest for home.

The thing is, I'm still not sure whether that was good aeronautical decision making, or just plain dumb.

It's by far the closest I've ever flown to convective activity. I suppose the strongest part of the cell was a few miles from the airport when we took off. But we had a good out, with no chance of our escape path closing off. Winds were about 15 kts when we departed, but aside from being a little bumpy on climbout, it wasn't a bad ride.

So with what I've presented, would you all do the same? Or am I a jerk for making a bad decision which fortunately worked out ok? :dunno:

Anyway, on the way home I commented that I'd never landed on grass before. I've always wanted to, but it's just never worked out with any of my previous CFIs, for various reasons. I've mentioned this to one of the club CFIs (not you, Stefan :wink2:) who said, in effect, "Just go do it. It's no big deal. Nail your approach speed and don't hesitate to go around."

So my right-seater, who has lots of time on grass, mentioned that a 2300 foot strip he flies to regularly was on our route home. It didn't take long for me to talk myself into it. The shortest paved runway I've landed on to date is 3600 feet. The grass strip was located in a valley, naturally with obstacles. On my first approach, I dumped in flaps 40 on final, which of course causes the 182 to drop like a cement truck. Adding a little power to arrest the sink rate, I ended up floating down the runway. About the time the right-seater said, "I think you should..." I had the throttle firewalled and was going around.

The second time, not wanting a repeat of the first, I arrived rather firmly on Earth, but was able to turn off in about 2/3 of the runway length. I was feeling pretty pleased with myself, when some numbnut on the unicom commented to another pilot on the field, "Hey, that guy in the Skylane didn't do too well." Telling myself to keep my finger off the mike button and my mouth shut, I of course didn't listen, and had to reply. Oh well, it made me feel better. :rolleyes:

All in all, I felt it was a pretty educational day, aviation-wise. I got to do two things I've never done before, I lived to tell about it, and I didn't break anything. In fact, I think I've learned more practical stuff from days like today and my long cross-country a couple weeks ago, than I have in months of flying friends around locally.
 
Think it was fine. You asked another pilot who has experience his opinion. I don't think another pilot friend would put another pilot into danger. It worked out and no maybe you're weather limits changed. :)

Glad everything worked out.
 
I just want to know what you said to the other guy on the unicom???

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
What's wrong with this picture? What was the proper approach speed for a 2,300' field? Would the plane have floated excessivly if you had used the proper approach speed? My Cessna 180 doesn't.

A few things, actually. Decided to make a 40 minute flight to Glens Falls for lunch at the excellent on-field restaurant. I took along another pilot - the first time I've flown with another pilot, which proved to be a good idea.

There was some convective activity predicted, which was to remain well north of our destination until later in the day. It was one of those typical northeast summer days, clear in the early morning followed by the puffy white clouds forming by mid-morning. It was an uneventful flight over.

Enjoying lunch, we heard one of the waitresses comment, "Oh my God, it is black to the northwest." Unable to see in that direction from where we were seated, she got our immediate attention. Sure enough, it looked pretty foreboding, with lightning and obvious heavy rain in the distance. A quick glance at the NEXRAD returns confirmed what we could clearly see...a large red blob not far away and moving southeast, toward the airport.

However, the sky was clear and blue to the south. The area of thunderstorms and precipitation seemed to be progressively increasing in size, with more forming behind. Naturally, there was a strong desire to get out of town, as I had to work Saturday night, and neither of us wanted to be stuck three hours by ground from home. I asked the other pilot what he thought, and he said, "If we go right NOW, it should be fine." Now, this guy is very experienced and a very conservative, safety-minded pilot, so I agreed. Had I been alone, I'm not sure what I would have done.

So after the quickest preflight I've ever done, and a rolling runup, we launched on runway 1, right at the heart of the storm. At 400 feet I started a right turnout into a quick 180 as the rain started pouring from the sky. In a few miles we were in the clear, and circumnavigating the storm, headed southwest for home.

The thing is, I'm still not sure whether that was good aeronautical decision making, or just plain dumb.

It's by far the closest I've ever flown to convective activity. I suppose the strongest part of the cell was a few miles from the airport when we took off. But we had a good out, with no chance of our escape path closing off. Winds were about 15 kts when we departed, but aside from being a little bumpy on climbout, it wasn't a bad ride.

So with what I've presented, would you all do the same? Or am I a jerk for making a bad decision which fortunately worked out ok? :dunno:

Anyway, on the way home I commented that I'd never landed on grass before. I've always wanted to, but it's just never worked out with any of my previous CFIs, for various reasons. I've mentioned this to one of the club CFIs (not you, Stefan :wink2:) who said, in effect, "Just go do it. It's no big deal. Nail your approach speed and don't hesitate to go around."

So my right-seater, who has lots of time on grass, mentioned that a 2300 foot strip he flies to regularly was on our route home. It didn't take long for me to talk myself into it. The shortest paved runway I've landed on to date is 3600 feet. The grass strip was located in a valley, naturally with obstacles. On my first approach, I dumped in flaps 40 on final, which of course causes the 182 to drop like a cement truck. Adding a little power to arrest the sink rate, I ended up floating down the runway. About the time the right-seater said, "I think you should..." I had the throttle firewalled and was going around.

The second time, not wanting a repeat of the first, I arrived rather firmly on Earth, but was able to turn off in about 2/3 of the runway length. I was feeling pretty pleased with myself, when some numbnut on the unicom commented to another pilot on the field, "Hey, that guy in the Skylane didn't do too well." Telling myself to keep my finger off the mike button and my mouth shut, I of course didn't listen, and had to reply. Oh well, it made me feel better. :rolleyes:

All in all, I felt it was a pretty educational day, aviation-wise. I got to do two things I've never done before, I lived to tell about it, and I didn't break anything. In fact, I think I've learned more practical stuff from days like today and my long cross-country a couple weeks ago, than I have in months of flying friends around locally.
 
I would probably have gotten the heck out of Dodge too. On Friday I was with my CFII at FNT, shooting approaches for the first time in 6 months. I knew that there were some storm cells up in the Saginaw area and that some of them might be headed our way, but my CFII would keep us safe. At one point ATC announced an area moderate to severe precip, 10 mi NW, headed SE.

"I see it, we'll be well clear of it."

Five minutes later we start to get hit by moderate turbulence on descent. Tower clears a jet to land, with a wind check "winds gusting now to 40 kts". I'm just going missed after being totally unable to hold altitude and literally getting my @-- kicked. Tower hands us off to departure, who asks us what our intentions are. At first we request the RNAV 36 at my CFII's suggestion. Then when they give us a vector to the NW I decide to speak up.

"Departure, negative, 8JT is going home, SE to VLL."

When I zoomed the MFD out I could see the cell: it looked like a real monster, going from light green to yellow to red to magenta in the space of a mile or two. When I ripped off the hood I couldn't believe my CFII had let us get that close to it. The sky over FNT was absolutely black.

"That's the kind I wouldn't get closer than 20 miles to if I could help it," I offered.

"They're not normally that dangerous at that distance. That's the worst I've been hammered in a long time. That one is building real good."

Lesson: don't mess with thunderstorms. The only thing I would have done differently in your story is to have my iPad handy and check the radar regularly during lunch. Better to get out early, it sounds like you barely got out in time.
 
What's wrong with this picture? What was the proper approach speed for a 2,300' field? Would the plane have floated excessivly if you had used the proper approach speed? My Cessna 180 doesn't.

60 kts. And yes, I was about 8 kts too fast, and no, I suspect it wouldn't have.
 
I just want to know what you said to the other guy on the unicom???

Oh, I just made a light-hearted comment that hopefully conveyed the message that I heard every word he said and didn't really appreciate it. (Not that he cared.) Then I told him to go $%@# himself.

Alright, not the last part. Though I surely thought it. :D
 
Sounds like quite a day.

With regard to the thunderstorm, it depends on the intensity and speed, sounds like you did fine. That IMO is something you can only judge by being there, just don't let the desire to leave put you in a bad situation. Fast moving storms also pass over quickly and the back side is usually smooth.

On the landing. Others may disagree, but I believe any Cessna pilot should be able to put it down and stop inside of 1,000. Just go to a long runway and use the 1,000 markers as a target touchdown point and practice it. I also believe any tin Cessna pilot should be able to do the same landing in a 20 knot direct crosswind. The reason I say this is because those are the skills you'll need in a emergency.

On that guy making a comment. I would have asked him to come over and give me some pointers in person after I shut down. What a low rent thing to do to anyone.

I hope the above isn't too critical, sounds like a great day of flying.
 
On the landing. Others may disagree, but I believe any Cessna pilot should be able to put it down and stop inside of 1,000. Just go to a long runway and use the 1,000 markers as a target touchdown point and practice it. I also believe any tin Cessna pilot should be able to do the same landing in a 20 knot direct crosswind. The reason I say this is because those are the skills you'll need in a emergency.

Oh, I agree. I routinely fly from a 9000 foot runway, and often to and from a 5000 foot strip...which has caused me to get lazy with regard to precise landings. I really hadn't thought much about it until the grass strip. I could no doubt benefit from spending some time working on spot landings.

As for the 20 kt crosswind, I would've been intimidated by that before spending some time in Iowa recently, where I'm pretty sure the wind was never less than 20 kts, inevitably at a 60-90 degree angle to whatever runway I wanted to use, for the entire time I was there. After that, piece of cake! :wink2:

I hope the above isn't too critical, sounds like a great day of flying.

Not at all. Valuable insight, and that's why I posted the story.
 
I've done the exact thing many times, 'We gotta go NOW or we ain't getting out.'
 
If you ever watch footage after a plane has gone down in a thunderstorm, you'll see that the rescuers/first responders are almost always dry.
 
The thing is, I'm still not sure whether that was good aeronautical decision making, or just plain dumb.

The latter part.

With strong convective activity comes strong downdrafts, windshear, and microbursts. That you were caught in heavy rain as you departed indicates that you were much closer to the convective activity than you may have thought; it certainly indicates that descending air and heavy precipitation was in your area. If you're feeling rushed, then it's a big red flag that something is wrong, and you have no need to be going. Better to tie down or hangar and stay put.

I have a reasonable amount of experience doing atmospheric research, flying into thunderstorms with instrumented aircraft to measure all aspects of the storm. Enough experience at least, to strongly suggest that you, or anyone else, do everything you can to avoid flying in the vicinity of thunderstorms.

Taking off into the face of one isn't a very good idea, even if your friend tells you otherwise. How much experience does he have flying under a thunderstorm. If it's a lot, get another friend. If it's not much or any, then he's got no basis for telling you it's okay.
 
First, nothing wrong with your soft field experience. You had a bad approach which we all do from time to time and you went around. Correct decision. Then you landed the airplane safely. Not sure what anyone could criticize about any of that.

But I think you made a bad decision in taking off in haste with thunderstorms so close. First, you admit that your pre-flight was rushed. That is a recipe for an accident, sooner or later. Second, if as you say the strongest part of the cell was only a "few miles" from the airport, that is far too close for comfort and if the winds or convective activity had changed even slightly you could have been in real trouble, close to the ground and slow.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, and the fact that things worked out okay speaks for itself. Just one pilot's opinion after-the-fact.
 
First, nothing wrong with your soft field experience. You had a bad approach which we all do from time to time and you went around. Correct decision. Then you landed the airplane safely. Not sure what anyone could criticize about any of that.

But I think you made a bad decision in taking off in haste with thunderstorms so close. First, you admit that your pre-flight was rushed. That is a recipe for an accident, sooner or later. Second, if as you say the strongest part of the cell was only a "few miles" from the airport, that is far too close for comfort and if the winds or convective activity had changed even slightly you could have been in real trouble, close to the ground and slow.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, and the fact that things worked out okay speaks for itself. Just one pilot's opinion after-the-fact.

This is one of the common dilemmas we get as pilots. It "feels" safer to rush things and get away from an approaching threat more quickly but rushing itself comes with additional risk as does operating near threatening weather. At the very least you should be extra vigilant WRT checklists and procedures and in the case of an approaching storm be very attentive to wind shifts and airspeed. You should also give yourself extra margins. For instance this would have been a very bad time to depart from a shorter runway than you were very comfortable with or to deal with more crosswind than you've managed in the past.

I've launched under similar circumstances but I think I had the presence of mind to follow the #2 rule in aviating: "Always have an out". For instance it was probably not likely that you'd be able to return to your departure airport if you had a problem (open door, loose fuel cap, dead radio, etc) so it would have been prudent to at least be familiar with alternatives in the area that were beyond the storm's path. In this kind of departure it's also quite possible that you'll find the weather in your path is far worse than you thought, another reason to have a plan B handy.

On the grass runway subject, if I were you I wouldn't have tackled both a short (for you based on your experience) and grass runway at the same time. There are plenty of longer grass runways around and shorter paved runways can't be all that hard to find either. Even a long paved runway can be "simulated short" by locating an easily identified point on the runway that represents what you'd consider short. It is true that 2300 isn't all that short for a 182 but when you're used to nothing less than 3500 ft of tarmac you will probably need your A game.

I do want to complement you on the decision to abort the landing early enough when it wasn't going well. And "plopping down" is appropriate when the runway is short and/or slippery (as grass often is). Coming in hot and/or using power beyond 10 AGL for anything but arresting a very high sink rate is a bad idea and has led to a lot of overshoots. I suspect that since you've been babying your skills on long runways you've let the approach speeds creep up and/or aren't paying sufficient attention to airspeed on final as you should be (a common issue).
 
My home field has both a 3500' paved runway, and a perpendicular 2200' grass strip. The first flight I made after passing my checkride was with my CFI to get checked out for the grass. I now root for the winds to favor the grass, because I love using it. It always makes for an interesting conversation with my passengers though. "You see that big runway over there. Well we won't be using it. We're going to be taking off and landing on this big grass field instead." I call it off-roading in an airplane lol.
 
Departing ASAP can lead to mistakes. A large storm can have a preceding gust front before the rain arrives. That gust front can get nasty. Heavy Rain means strong sinking air.

Landing at the grass field. First time on grass, heavy airplane, nose dragger. Check the AF/D in flight for "all the information available", unplanned airport, any NOTAMS? Grass not recently cut or wet soggy spots on the runway from yesterday's rain?

Glad it all worked out. Good pilots always review their flights for "what ifs".
Thunderstorms can pop up earlier than expected, or not at all.
 
Departing ASAP can lead to mistakes.

Not the least of which is giving up your runway. It's usually not a good practice to depart from a runway to which you can't return.
 
Departing ASAP can lead to mistakes. A large storm can have a preceding gust front before the rain arrives. That gust front can get nasty.

It only takes one runway rodeo to understand the significance of this information. I ho-hummed a landing at KOJC in my Cessna 340 one evening when both on-board radar and stormscope agreed that the convective activity was west of Lawrence, KS more than 20 miles WNW.

Just after touchdown on Rwy 17 centerline into a light southerly wind, all hell broke loose. I was off the east side of the runway and back in the middle more quickly than I would have thought possible, without any idea of why it had happened. Fortunately, the plane missed all of the lights but the tracks through the grass were clearly visible the next morning, and left no doubt that all three wheels had left the pavement.

When I could breathe again I asked tower if they saw my zig-zag and had any idea what might have happened. They said hell no both of them had been too busy trying to abandon the cab,and their paper tracing showed a gust of 59 knots.
 
The lesson of the TBM crash at Iowa City (an Angel Flight) reinforces what I was taught: If you MUST depart with a storm descending upon you, depart into the direction of the storm. If it is too close to do that, don't go, hunker down.

The direction of the first microburst will be from the storm toward you. If you set that up as a tailwind, only g_d can save you. Maybe.
 
Just after touchdown on Rwy 17 centerline into a light southerly wind, all hell broke loose. I was off the east side of the runway and back in the middle more quickly than I would have thought possible, without any idea of why it had happened. Fortunately, the plane missed all of the lights but the tracks through the grass were clearly visible the next morning, and left no doubt that all three wheels had left the pavement.
Sounds a bit like one of my first landings in my Cardinal, as a storm was approaching fast from the west. The wind was pretty stiff from the southwest and I was landing on 27, so I kept in a lot of left aileron as I rolled out. Suddenly I was skidding leftward toward the runway lights before I had a chance to react. Luckily the gust was short-lived and I managed to get the plane under control. But yep, TRW gust fronts can be nasty. I have no idea what that gust was clocked at.
 
I was landing today on Runway 26 with the wind 240@10 - not much at all - severe clear and a gorgeous day in SoCal.

I touched down - a real greaser - 3 squeaks. At about 50mph IAS I get a real shove to the right. Then I'm right back tracking down the centerline - maybe 6" to the right - no more than that. I went 'woah' out loud - my wife asked me what that was - I turned off at my usual turn off for the hangar and tower asks me if I 'felt anything unusual.' I said I got a quick shove to the right - and they told me that the wind indicator showed a transient 40kt gust. They thought it was a gremlin.

So on a severe clear day something strange happened - it can happen without bad weather being afoot. I thought that I had pressed a rudder pedal or did something crazy . . . its a strange world out there - don't temp fate.

Look at the photo = see that line? That is a gust front. Imagine the power to generate that - I would NOT have wanted to fly into SAV or HXD at that moment . . .
 

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I was landing today on Runway 26 with the wind 240@10 - not much at all - severe clear and a gorgeous day in SoCal.

I touched down - a real greaser - 3 squeaks. At about 50mph IAS I get a real shove to the right. Then I'm right back tracking down the centerline - maybe 6" to the right - no more than that. I went 'woah' out loud - my wife asked me what that was - I turned off at my usual turn off for the hangar and tower asks me if I 'felt anything unusual.' I said I got a quick shove to the right - and they told me that the wind indicator showed a transient 40kt gust. They thought it was a gremlin.

So on a severe clear day something strange happened - it can happen without bad weather being afoot. I thought that I had pressed a rudder pedal or did something crazy . . . its a strange world out there - don't temp fate.

Look at the photo = see that line? That is a gust front. Imagine the power to generate that - I would NOT have wanted to fly into SAV or HXD at that moment . . .

There's a reason you're supposed to keep "flying" the airplane until it's tied down (sounds like you did OK). If you relax your vigilance after the wheels meet the pavement (common practice for many pilots) an unexpected blast of wind can put you in the weeds before you wake up and start doing that pilot stuff. But if you're paying attention you might get pushed around a little but you aren't likely to start mowing runway lights.
 
There's a reason you're supposed to keep "flying" the airplane until it's tied down (sounds like you did OK). If you relax your vigilance after the wheels meet the pavement (common practice for many pilots) an unexpected blast of wind can put you in the weeds before you wake up and start doing that pilot stuff. But if you're paying attention you might get pushed around a little but you aren't likely to start mowing runway lights.

true but a couple hundred traps will cure you of any tendency to not fly the airplane to the elevator or the hangar . . .
 
You guys be careful with the gotta go "NOW" exercise. Was at a fly in at my local drome a few years ago and these guys below guessed WRONG. The "witness" in the report is a CFI, although there were hundreds that got to see the event. I left by car about 10 minutes earlier.


_________NTSB CEN09FA010_________________________

Witnesses observed the airplane taxi and perform an intersection takeoff directly towards an isolated thunderstorm located off the departure end of the runway. The airplane appeared to climb to 150 to 200 feet above the ground before disappearing from view as it went into the storm. One witness stated that the airplane's wings were rocking back and forth and that it appeared the pilot was having difficulty controlling the airplane, just before it went out of view. Five to ten minutes later, after the storm moved past, smoke was seen rising approximately one mile west of the airport. The airplane was destroyed by post impact fire. Weather radar data showed the thunderstorm was producing an approximate 60 knot wind shear at the time of the accident. There was a SIGMET active for the accident location and time which warned of the possibility of severe thunderstorms. There was no evidence the pilots obtained a weather briefing prior to taking off.
___________________________________________


If you ever watch footage after a plane has gone down in a thunderstorm, you'll see that the rescuers/first responders are almost always dry.

I like that saying that the NTSB investigators always have great weather the day after.
 
(convective)

So with what I've presented, would you all do the same? Or am I a jerk for making a bad decision which fortunately worked out ok? :dunno:

Since you asked, I think you cut it too close. You missed your chance to get out and should have waited for the cell to pass. Your friend gave you bad advice. I have done similar things also and, hopefully, learned from them.

Re the landing, you did not ask for a critique so I am not advancing one.

Glad it all worked out!
 
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It comes down to a judgement call, based on observation of the approaching weather and comfort level with it. Everyone is going to have a different "flinch point" for that particular go/no-go.

I did that once in Lubbock, landed to pick up a passenger as a storm front approached, I taxied (quickly) up to the FBO where he was standing outside waiting, shut down and jumped out and we grabbed his bags as I was telling him "If we're not rolling in 45 seconds we're staying here for 2 hours." We got off the runway with the visible leading edge gust front about a mile and a half from the airport, that was (and is) right on the ragged bleeding edge for my personal flinch point.
 
The lesson of the TBM crash at Iowa City (an Angel Flight) reinforces what I was taught: If you MUST depart with a storm descending upon you, depart into the direction of the storm. If it is too close to do that, don't go, hunker down.

The direction of the first microburst will be from the storm toward you. If you set that up as a tailwind, only g_d can save you. Maybe.

I was going to make a comment along the same lines, but figured I'd better check to see if anyone covered it :D

The only thing I'd like to add is that you need to be careful of the plow front (gust front) also. It usually proceeds the air mass storms by 5-10 minutes or so (depending on the size of the storm). The gust front can be 40kts or more (als depending on storm size), so if you are even contemplating a runway that would put you on a crosswind path to the approaching storm it can quickly exceed either the pilot's or the plane's abilities.

I love Scott's website, and I am a subsribed member... it is well worth the investment, and it helps fill in all the blanks that the aviation weather books leave. At least to me, I've found most aviation books to be either too dumbed down or they go so overboard that most of the material isn't applicable to pilots. Scott's stuff is the perfect blend of easy to understand stuff without all the extra stuff that doesn't matter to us.

Bob
 
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