what duty does an instructor have to report other pilots?

dsffdssdf said:
The only way you could say I'm responsible for any of his actions, is if I didn't inform him that those actions were wrong.
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If I'm the instructor of a Student Pilot, I think the FAA will say it is indeed my responsibility to "inform" the Student of what is right and what is wrong in the solo operation of an aircraft with my authorization.
 
Ron Levy said:
If I'm the instructor of a Student Pilot, I think the FAA will say it is indeed my responsibility to "inform" the Student of what is right and what is wrong in the solo operation of an aircraft with my authorization.
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I think that's his point. If he tells the pilot and he deliberately violates the law, that's his issue, not the CFIs; however, if the CFI fails to tell the student, its the CFI's issue.
 
SkyHog said:
I think that's his point. If he tells the pilot and he deliberately violates the law, that's his issue, not the CFIs; however, if the CFI fails to tell the student, its the CFI's issue.
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While it's true it's not my issue if the Student goes out and deliberately does something I told him/her not to do, and gave no obvious sign of impending stupidity, if I learn about it ex post facto and do nothing about it or to prevent recurrence, and continue to permit that Student to fly, it's my issue, too, both from an FAA and civil liability standpoint.
 
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Ron Levy said:
While it's true it's not my issue if the Student goes out and deliberately does something I told him/her not to do, and gave no obvious sign of impending stupidity, if I learn about it ex post facto and do nothing about it or to prevent recurrence, and continue to permit that Student to fly, it's my issue, too, both from an FAA and civil liability standpoint.
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I agree, but the question here is what is the instructor expected do actually do here. Yes it's the instructor's duty to do something, but what? Should he (the instructor) go straight to the FSDO, or should he do something else. Maybe use his superior instructional knowledge to work with the offender to try to get him to change his ways. Or both maybe? Neither? (i'm not directing this at anyone specific, I'm just restating the question in the OP to get things back on topic)
 
dsffdssdf said:
I agree, but the question here is what is the instructor expected do actually do here.
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Where's here? What happened? Who's involved - Student Pilot? Rated former student? Just someone we say? All we have so far is a vague situation, nothing specific.
 
dsffdssdf said:
edit: for the sake of the argument here, assume the student violating the regs in not just coffee talk, but he is indeed doing it and there are facts backing it up.
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Legally, you are not your brother's keeper.

Ethically, it would be worth asking him "what are you thinking".

Practically, if you feel your student is doing something seriously wrong and is being stupid/stubborn about it, go for one more short flight, log it as dual given, and when you get his logbook handed over for the flight to be endorsed, write a statement rescinding your previous solo endorsement, tell him have a nice day, and dont charge him for the flight. He can then find another instructor. (yea.. kinda over the top, but.. it COULD happen)

Or you could just fire him as a student.
 
Doggtyred said:
Legally, you are not your brother's keeper.
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Your Student is your responsibility, not your brother. If you continue to allow your Student to continue flying solo after you hear that s/he has been breaking the rules, I suspect that both the FAA and a civil court will hold you accountable for what then happens. I would certainly not risk my ticket by not rescinding that Student's solo privileges over which I held authority.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I agree, but the question here is what is the instructor expected do actually do here. Yes it's the instructor's duty to do something, but what? Should he (the instructor) go straight to the FSDO, or should he do something else. Maybe use his superior instructional knowledge to work with the offender to try to get him to change his ways. Or both maybe? Neither? (i'm not directing this at anyone specific, I'm just restating the question in the OP to get things back on topic)
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Am I the only one detecting an change in tone/attitude between this post and the original?

I still think the instructor has a duty to "Aviation" (or his own conscience) to make an attempt to reach out to the errant pilot. If that attempt is rebuffed then it's time to take it to higher authority.

This topic has me thinking of how people behave at Oshkosh. Everyone seems to be honest, helpful, and doing the right thing, just because everybody ELSE is the same way and you have to live up to the standard of the community. I always try to remember to be that way the rest of the year, but it's tough.
 
TMetzinger said:
I still think the instructor has a duty to "Aviation" (or his own conscience) to make an attempt to reach out to the errant pilot. If that attempt is rebuffed then it's time to take it to higher authority.

This topic has me thinking of how people behave at Oshkosh. Everyone seems to be honest, helpful, and doing the right thing, just because everybody ELSE is the same way and you have to live up to the standard of the community. I always try to remember to be that way the rest of the year, but it's tough.
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I think Tim's got it right. We teach much more by how we act than by what we say.

Joe
 
TMetzinger said:
I still think the instructor has a duty to "Aviation" (or his own conscience) to make an attempt to reach out to the errant pilot. If that attempt is rebuffed then it's time to take it to higher authority.

This topic has me thinking of how people behave at Oshkosh. Everyone seems to be honest, helpful, and doing the right thing, just because everybody ELSE is the same way and you have to live up to the standard of the community. I always try to remember to be that way the rest of the year, but it's tough.
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+100. Sounds good to me.
 
Educators have the responsibility to educate. Sometimes that means telling a student that they have gone in the wrong direction. It isn't easy and these days it can seem like tilting against windmills. But, imagine if a student pilot is flying solo but not following the restrictions on their sign-off, where will it end? What sort of pilot will they become? If the instructor doesn't have the courage to say "No", then is he truly an educator?

A quote from this linked article states, "One of the things I say from time to time, reflecting on my job, is that 'No.' is a complete sentence." There is a lot to think about in this article. http://www.elinewberger.com/enabling.html
 
Someone pointed out on another thread that GA itself is in danger of being regulated into oblivion due to crashes that take others lives, or even our own. Specifically mentioned was that latest incident over the Hudson river. The media gets itself all worked into a feeding frenzy every time one of us rich pilots kills someone.

Based on that, I think it is more than reasonable for a CFI to do everything he can to eliminate unsafe pilots or aircraft from the sky. Actually this weight should not be placed just on the CFIs shoulders, I think it is everyone who is associated with GA, from line boys to other pilots, all of us should be actively involved in every aspect of aviation safety.

It is not really ratting someone out, it's preserving what we have.

John
 
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Student flying on solo, has my weather breifing and my review of his plan. If he's busting regs, he gets one warning. If the busts again, flies w/o my knowledge, counsel, or with a passenger, he turns in his certificate to me for removal of solo endorsement (which I only sign for 30 days only).

If he doesn't turn it in, my handler at the FSDO gets a call.

Then it's MY fault for having chosen a characterologically flawed student. This has happened to me - guy owned an nice J35 and was flying it all over the place. BUSTED. I'm not interested in creating another "autopilot through IMC" VFR pilot, and that's what he was going to be.
 
SkyHog said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.
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Instructors can and do fire their students just like doctors can and do fire their patients

And if that is your attitude towards professional flight instruction, then that speaks volumes about you.

If I were a CFI and I detected this from you, I'd ask you to elsewhere. They dont pay enough to deal with that kind of mentality.
 
SkyHog said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.
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Wow....I just lost a good part of the respect I had for you. I can't believe you would seriously take that attitude. As someone else said, if you were my student, you'd find yourself out the door and looking for a new CFI. I'd also probably give the other local CFIs a heads up about someone with a possible attitude problem coming their way.

Granted, I'm not a CFI but I have been an instructor for the several health care professions I've been part of (EMS, echocardiography and respiratory therapy) and we are paid a lot more than CFIs for our troubles and we do kick out students who are facing major student loans far beyond what student pilots rack up. The most common reason (other than simply good ol' fashioned failure) is the presence of an improper attitude. I don't think aviation should be any different.
 
SteveinMichigan said:
Wow....I just lost a good part of the respect I had for you. I can't believe you would seriously take that attitude. As someone else said, if you were my student, you'd find yourself out the door and looking for a new CFI. I'd also probably give the other local CFIs a heads up about someone with a possible attitude problem coming their way.

Granted, I'm not a CFI but I have been an instructor for the several health care professions I've been part of (EMS, echocardiography and respiratory therapy) and we are paid a lot more than CFIs for our troubles and we do kick out students who are facing major student loans far beyond what student pilots rack up. The most common reason (other than simply good ol' fashioned failure) is the presence of an improper attitude. I don't think aviation should be any different.
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Until Nick earns his CFI, he will continue to exhibit certificate envy.

Harsh, but true.:D
 
dsffdssdf said:
Lets say you're a flight instructor and you hear about a student of yours (or for that matter a person who is not your student) had broken, or was habitually breaking FARs. In these situations, what do you think the appropriate action the instructor should take?
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Start making book on the time and modality of death.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I don't see how who they've flown with in the past or who they're flying with no is a "key piece of information". I don't see how it's any of your business.

You may not have explicitly said you "own" your syudents but you sure do seem to act like you do. Why else would you feel the need to "discharge" a student after he does something you disapprove of?
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Because, like it or not, CFIs carry liability for their students, even after they get their licenses. The administrative side isn't too bad as the Feds understand reality for the most part, it's the juries that pose the hazard after your student manages to kill someone. Even if you're eventually exhonerated, it still cost you $45,000 to defend yourself.
 
SkyHog said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.

Who cares why I'm paying you? Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.

Harsh, but true.
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It's a free market both ways, if I don't like you as a student, I can go tell you to "pound sand and find someone stupid and desperate enough to fly with your sorry a--." I don't have to work for anybody I don't want to. I've turned down $200k a year gigs because I didn't like the owner of the boat. One particular instance was when one hemmed and hawed about $10,000 worth of safety gear, but later the same(first day for me on the boat) I signed for a delivery of $72,000 in towels and robes. I handed the owner the bill of lading and told him I quit. "You can't quit" "Yes, yes I can. Our philosophies on how a boat is managed are just too far apart for us to have a good relationship."
 
SkyHog said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read....you are an instructor. You are paid to instruct. I hire you, you don't hire me.
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Nick,

Lest anyone think you're "retarded," try to read and comprehend the post correctly. Dan didn't say that he'd drop a student for flying with another instructor - He said he'd drop them for LYING about it when he asked them. I would too - If they'll lie to me about that, what else might they lie to me about?

Who cares why I'm paying you?
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A good instructor, that's who.

Take your $30, and sit in the right seat while I fly the airplane for you and you get to build your hours towards a real job.
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Dan isn't building hours - And most of the best instructors aren't. (My primary instructor was, but he was an excellent instructor as well and even said "if I could make a decent living as a flight instructor, I'd never go to the airlines.")

It sounds like maybe all you've flown with is worthless time-builder instructors, which would explain your attitude towards a lot of subjects on this board - I hope you can find a really good instructor who will challenge you and actually put some new knowledge into that thick skull of yours. ;) :yes:
 
dsffdssdf said:
I don't know, what do you think?...



edit: for the sake of the argument here, assume the student violating the regs in not just coffee talk, but he is indeed doing it and there are facts backing it up.
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I think that liability would only be a minor part of my concerns.

I also think based on what I have read in this thread that you are more likely to be the one someone will be calling the FAA about, than the one deciding whether he should call the FAA :loco:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Thanks for posting that; it was a fascinating and educational read, and helped me understand better how legal standards and precedents are applied in tort law towards CFI's and the schools they work for.
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Reading that caused me to change the position I held earlier in the thread.
 
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