What does the visual do for ATC

Topper

Topper

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flew into Nashville yesterday to BNA. Ceiling was broken and I was in and out of the clouds. I was told to expect the ils 20L and eventually given an intercept heading to join the localizer and told to report runway in sight. When I did, I was cleared for the visual. Could have just as easily cleared me for the ils when he gave me the intercept. I assume there was a benefit to atc to give a visual vs the ils.

Anyone know why the visual is better?

Jim
 
Several reasons as I see it (*disclaimer, I've never worked at BNA so this is in general)...no particular order:

1) so the controller doesn't have to baby sit (tongue in cheek) the pilot (i.e. inform them if they are low, left or right)
2) when not necessary, give the pilot more flexibility to get to the runway (slightly negated when you've already intercepted)
3) when conducting parallel approaches it is more efficient by not having to go so far away from the airport (out to the capture points...ATC term) and allows for legally filling the final (going into gaps that may not have 1000 or 3). All I have to do is turn you in and have the sep when I clear you...not when you join the final.
4) Easier to say cleared for the vis than saying "N12345, you're 15 miles from blahh, cross blahh at three thousand, cleared ILS 27R"...not that this has ever mattered to me but it does give more times for readback/hearback errors.
5) I reserve my right to add to the list if I think of more. :)
 
You don't have the accept it, but the visual means you can B line it for the numbers, saves you a little time. For me at work anything I can do to save any time is important, now if you rather do the ILS just let them know, no biggie.
 
A visual is usually provides efficiency to the pilot, reduces controller wok load, reduces airspace congestion.
 
James331 said:
You don't have the accept it, but the visual means you can B line it for the numbers, saves you a little time. For me at work anything I can do to save any time is important, now if you rather do the ILS just let them know, no biggie.
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Very true. Keep in mind if you are going into an airport that is running parallel operations and the ATIS says that your assigned runway is a visual approach and you wait till you are on downwind or even worse at intercept to tell them this, it puts ATC in a bad position as the side by side ILS rules are different than visual beside an ILS and may result in you getting broken out and re-sequenced. So if you don't want a visual for some reason please let them know early enough.
 
James331 said:
You don't have the accept it, but the visual means you can B line it for the numbers, saves you a little time. For me at work anything I can do to save any time is important, now if you rather do the ILS just let them know, no biggie.
Click to expand...
Exactly. It’s quicker if you can accept it.
 
Radar Contact said:
Very true. Keep in mind if you are going into an airport that is running parallel operations and the ATIS says that your assigned runway is a visual approach and you wait till you are on downwind or even worse at intercept to tell them this, it puts ATC in a bad position as the side by side ILS rules are different than visual beside an ILS and may result in you getting broken out and re-sequenced. So if you don't want a visual for some reason please let them know early enough.
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On that note.

Per the visual, ALWAYS load the approach anyways and keep a eye on your CDI, once you line up with what you think is the runway and the CDI goes out of whack, you very well might be lined up on the wrong runway or a taxiway or something instead.
 
James331 said:
On that note.

Per the visual, ALWAYS load the approach anyways and keep a eye on your CDI, once you line up with what you think is the runway and the CDI goes out of whack, you very well might be lined up on the wrong runway or a taxiway or something instead.
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Or the wrong airport . . . .
 
The biggest thing for atc is it allows them to reduce the separation they must maintain. There are some controllers here that can explain the different separations they are required to keep.
 
I assumed it might have to do with separation. I always load the approach even in clear and a million. In this case I pretty much had to have it load d since they had me join the localizer prior to being visual with the airport.

Thanks,

Jim
 
unsafervguy said:
The biggest thing for atc is it allows them to reduce the separation they must maintain. There are some controllers here that can explain the different separations they are required to keep.
Click to expand...


Best nutshell explanation I can give: If you stay IFR we must increase the separation required ahead and behind you. Stay VFR and we can cram you all in like sardines provided we don't bust wake turbulence separation if any. ;)
 
Topper said:
flew into Nashville yesterday to BNA. Ceiling was broken and I was in and out of the clouds. I was told to expect the ils 20L and eventually given an intercept heading to join the localizer and told to report runway in sight. When I did, I was cleared for the visual. Could have just as easily cleared me for the ils when he gave me the intercept. I assume there was a benefit to atc to give a visual vs the ils.

Anyone know why the visual is better?

Jim
Click to expand...

Getting the Visual allows them to not have to separate you from traffic on the parallel final approach course once you receive and acknowledge the clearance. That’s for runways separated by 4300 feet or more. 2500-4299 the pilot on the other runway has to have recieved and acknowledged his clearance for that runway also. Less than 2500 you have to see the plane going to the other runway. It’s not uncommon to be ‘vectored ‘for’ the ILS and then get a Visual. Sometimes that’s the plan all along. They know guys are seeing the airport. But they can’t ‘vector ‘for’ the Visual unless the Ceiling is 500 feet above the Minimum Vectoring Altitude. You being in and out of the clouds up to the time you turned to final and saw the airport makes it sound like that was case. They only need 1000 and 3 to clear aircraft for the Visual. But sometimes more is needed to Vector ‘for’ it.
 
unsafervguy said:
The biggest thing for atc is it allows them to reduce the separation they must maintain. There are some controllers here that can explain the different separations they are required to keep.
Click to expand...

Separation can be reduced if visual separation is used. Use of a visual approach instead of an ILS or other instrument approach does not lessen required radar separation.
 
roncachamp said:
Separation can be reduced if visual separation is used. Use of a visual approach instead of an ILS or other instrument approach does not lessen required radar separation.
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Yeah. It doesn't lessen it. But it can 'eliminate' the need for separation.

(c) Provided aircraft flight paths do not
intersect, and when the provisions of subparas (a) and
(b) are met, it is not necessary to apply any other type
of separation with aircraft on the adjacent final
approach course.

It's in 7-4-4. Pretty long Section, I'm not gonna paste the whole thing here unless someone asks.
 
Radar Contact said:
Keep in mind if you are going into an airport that is running parallel operations and the ATIS says that your assigned runway is a visual approach and you wait till you are on downwind or even worse at intercept to tell them this, it puts ATC in a bad position as the side by side ILS rules are different than visual beside an ILS and may result in you getting broken out and re-sequenced. So if you don't want a visual for some reason please let them know early enough.
Click to expand...

As much joking as we did at the fly-in, I'm glad you brought this up. I don't think many guys realize (myself included) that an ILS late in the game can put you in a bad spot. We think of it in terms of spacing with the guy in front of us and that's about it. As I mentioned at the dam, we have some guys that are adverse to accepting the visual if there's no real advantage. I've always considered not calling the airport to force an ILS to be an eye-rolling move, but if it's causing you guys grief, that pushes it into dbag move territory. :D

I'd be willing to bet that most of these guys would be fine with asking for the ILS early, they (we) just don't know any better. I'll post something about this on our internal board and see what the response is like.
 
Timbeck2 said:
If you stay IFR we must increase the separation required ahead and behind you. Stay VFR and we can cram you all in like sardines
Click to expand...

Thread not complete until the question is answered again; "Is there any advantage to you guys, for us to cancel upon entering Class B/C airspace?" (during great weather)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thread not complete until the question is answered again; "Is there any advantage to you guys, for us to cancel upon entering Class B/C airspace?" (during great weather)
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I don't think canceling altogether would be the issue, just being cleared to a visual approach. In fact, canceling at a B or C might end up screwing you on a clearance - cause couldn't the tower just tell you to go away or hold?
 
kayoh190 said:
As much joking as we did at the fly-in, I'm glad you brought this up. I don't think many guys realize (myself included) that an ILS late in the game can put you in a bad spot. We think of it in terms of spacing with the guy in front of us and that's about it. As I mentioned at the dam, we have some guys that are adverse to accepting the visual if there's no real advantage. I've always considered not calling the airport to force an ILS to be an eye-rolling move, but if it's causing you guys grief, that pushes it into dbag move territory. :D

I'd be willing to bet that most of these guys would be fine with asking for the ILS early, they (we) just don't know any better. I'll post something about this on our internal board and see what the response is like.
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Push the button and fly the Approach. Ain't no rule says you can't use the 'Approach' to assist you in flying the Visual Approach. Of course if something like 'cross the river above [whatever] is included in the Visual Approach clearance you gotta do that. I doubt if this causes conflictions often. And you have to remain Clear of Clouds. You reported the airport in sight or another airplane that did, I doubt if remaining Clear of Clouds becomes a problem very often. If it does, grab the yoke in one hand and the throttles in the other and fly the plane.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Thread not complete until the question is answered again; "Is there any advantage to you guys, for us to cancel upon entering Class B/C airspace?" (during great weather)
Click to expand...

Yes. If the weather is great enough that you are never going to say ‘unable’ to any heading, altitude or other instruction. And you don’t tie up the frequency with a bunch of requests that you think are going to get you in front of another plane you would be following if you hadn’t cancelled. In other words you don’t, or expect the controller to do anything that disrupts the flow and rythem of the sequence. Then yes, your separation minima goes from 3 miles or 1000 feet down to 1 1/2 miles or 500 feet and that could come in handy. In the parallel runways Approach situation however, it could increase separation from ‘not required’ to 1 1/2 miles.
 
luvflyin said:
Push the button and fly the Approach. Ain't no rule says you can't use the 'Approach' to assist you in flying the Visual Approach. Of course if something like 'cross the river above [whatever] is included in the Visual Approach clearance you gotta do that. I doubt if this causes conflictions often. And you have to remain Clear of Clouds. You reported the airport in sight or another airplane that did, I doubt if remaining Clear of Clouds becomes a problem very often. If it does, grab the yoke in one hand and the throttles in the other and fly the plane.
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Nah - it's a different sort of issue. I've only flown with a handful over the course of my career, but these guys have all been flying for a looong time, so it's not about some aversion to doing piloty s***. FOQA did a good job of reining in the guys that colored outside the lines, but I think there's an old school personality out there that's still a little p!ssed about the big brother aspect of it, and overreacting is their passive aggressive way of dealing with it. For example, guys that used to fly in and out of the clacker (Mmo isn't a limitation, it's a goal!) back in the day, but now when asked to do anything over .77 are suddenly 'unable'. Not wanting to fly a visual (when there's nothing in it for them) is the same sort of thing.

So as I was saying before, nobody is going to get these guys to change their minds. But I think it might be possible to get ATC a little more warning if the visual is off the table.
 
kayoh190 said:
Nah - it's a different sort of issue. I've only flown with a handful over the course of my career, but these guys have all been flying for a looong time, so it's not about some aversion to doing piloty s***. FOQA did a good job of reining in the guys that colored outside the lines, but I think there's an old school personality out there that's still a little p!ssed about the big brother aspect of it, and overreacting is their passive aggressive way of dealing with it. For example, guys that used to fly in and out of the clacker (Mmo isn't a limitation, it's a goal!) back in the day, but now when asked to do anything over .77 are suddenly 'unable'. Not wanting to fly a visual (when there's nothing in it for them) is the same sort of thing.

So as I was saying before, nobody is going to get these guys to change their minds. But I think it might be possible to get ATC a little more warning if the visual is off the table.
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What’s ‘the clacker’ and ‘Mmo?’ Anyway, where I was coming from was the scenario in the OP. Vectored for the ILS and then on the dog leg turn being asked for the airport sighting and then getting a Visual Approach. That’s when I was saying just do the ILS if you want to. Staying ‘clear of clouds’ of course and complying with any instruction in the Visual Approach Clearance. I didn’t know there was this crowd out there who are mad that the Visual Approach was ever invented.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
So really - if we are to be maximally helpful to ATC - on those days when it is gorgeous everyone should be checking in with "Cancel IFR".
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I wouldn’t go that far. It depends on ATC. It would be out of the norm and they may take something simple and complicate it. Try it and see what you get.
 
This brings up an interesting regulation point I never considered and was not covered in my IR or any IPC.
Generally we get a visual approach when the ceiling is above the expected interception of the ILS/IPV glide slope. This is often somewhere between the IAF and FAF.
What is the actual regulatory limit for visual approach? Is it the MVA?

Tim
 
tspear said:
This brings up an interesting regulation point I never considered and was not covered in my IR or any IPC.
Generally we get a visual approach when the ceiling is above the expected interception of the ILS/IPV glide slope. This is often somewhere between the IAF and FAF.
What is the actual regulatory limit for visual approach? Is it the MVA?

Tim
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I haven't seen a regulatory limit, but AIM 5-4-23a says "Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater." However, as a practical matter, ATC may or may not have a way of getting you below 1000 AGL.

The MVA comes into play if you're being vectored, but one way to get below the MVA would be to get cleared for a published approach and ask for a visual once you get the airport in sight.
 
tspear said:
What is the actual regulatory limit for visual approach? Is it the MVA?
Click to expand...
All ATC needs to vector you for the visual is 500 ft above the MVA. The field needs to be reporting at least 1000/3. We get away with it sometimes by "vectoring you for an instrument approach" knowing you'll probably report the field and then clearing you for the visual. If that makes sense?
 
Radar Contact said:
All ATC needs to vector you for the visual is 500 ft above the MVA. The field needs to be reporting at least 1000/3. We get away with it sometimes by "vectoring you for an instrument approach" knowing you'll probably report the field and then clearing you for the visual. If that makes sense?
Click to expand...

Yes
 
Topper said:
flew into Nashville yesterday to BNA. Ceiling was broken and I was in and out of the clouds. I was told to expect the ils 20L and eventually given an intercept heading to join the localizer and told to report runway in sight. When I did, I was cleared for the visual. Could have just as easily cleared me for the ils when he gave me the intercept. I assume there was a benefit to atc to give a visual vs the ils.

Anyone know why the visual is better?

Jim
Click to expand...

I can run a lot more traffic using visuals.

Tex
 
Accepting a visual approach doesn't cancel IFR so you don't have to comply with vfr cloud clearance requirements on a visual approach--just stay clear of the clouds. OTH, pilots have been violated for cancelling IFR upon breaking out below a ceiling with unlimited visibility to the airport because they were not 500 feet below said ceiling. If they had just asked for the visual approach instead of cancelling IFR, they wouldn't have been slammed with a violation. Just to be clear, the controller is not going to violate you for cancelling, an FAA safety inspector who sees it will, and they have.
 
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