what do you think of this share/partnership?

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peevee

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1/4 Share? $15K at the most. $60K aircraft value. Maybe a little more with the fresh engine.

Check trade a plane or controller.com and check out Equivilent aircraft.
Last spring a fully loaded IFR C182 RG went for $80K.
 
peevee said:
I figure it at basically zero time since the reserves are there for the portion flown.
You're in line with what I feel is fair also. They're asking 18 or 19 he wasn't quite sure. That seemed a little high to me so I ran a vref on aopa on it and with the avionics, low engine time, long range tanks etc they think its worth 80k. I thought 60 would be more like it too based on listings I saw. I think he said the paint and interior are like a 7 so probably nothing super fancy there either.

They probably aren't negotiable on it so it might be a moot point. I just want a fair price for everyone involved I don't want to offend them or come off as a cheapskate. They're selling the share for the last owners estate too so it would be pretty tacky to low ball em
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How is offering a fair price low balling?

Simple solution, spend a few hundred bucks for an independent appraisal. If everyone's ok with the appraisal number, the cost of the appraisal is split. If one party doesn't like it, they can walk away from the deal for the cost of the appraisal. For the sellers representatives, they will at the very least get a good estimate of the market value.

They're probably a bunch of stubborn old codgers and don't care what the appraisal is, in which case you can just walk after seeing their reaction.
 
Part of the equation needs to be that someone else invested the time and energy to set up and maintain this partnership. The simple math isn't that it is worth a 1/4 of Vref or whatever metric, even an appraisal only goes so far. There isn't "free market" pricing on partnership shares, it is worth whatever the other partners decide it is worth it to them to give up a fraction of the ownership in exchange for some possible financial benefit, with some possibility of increased difficulties. Also, the other partners likely have a lot more than their share of "current market value" invested in the plane, and when they commit to sell a 1/4 share, they are "locking in the loss" on their investment.

Just some thoughts from a 9-year long, 1/3rd share owner, who is pretty close to having their partnership changed to a 4-member arrangement. Pluses and minuses for everyone involved.

Jeff
 
I'm thinking that 20.00 per hour for the engine reserve is a little high. I just had the 470U in my Q model rebuild by Zephyr Aircraft Engines, a well respected shop and it was 22,000. As some else else pointed out the tbo on that engine is at least 1500 and depending on the engine maybe longer. If that 20.00 per hour is used for other maintenance as well then ok but if it's dedicated to the engine then it's too high.
 
I can say that when I bought into my share in a 5 way partnership I looked at the price and then at the overall value of the plane and decided that paying a little more then 20% of the cost was worth it as finding a partnership in a aircraft that I wanted at my home airport has some value in it. just for food for thought.
 
What I'm trying to figure out is how someone goes from

"what do you think of this?"

to

"it ain't gonna work"

in four hours.
 
Other factors that you can't put a $ factor on is compatibility with the other owners, how will the airplane be scheduled, how are upgrades and maintenance scheduled/agreed on, where is it based and how convenient for you, etc. This is a major financial investment into an asset that probably won't appreciate and that you do not have complete control over.

Rule of thumb - no matter how much you really want an airplane or part thereof, don't rush.

What airport(s) are you flying out of these days?
 
If their ask is below the VRef, what is the price issue? Especially when you factor in the reserve funds. Just because you found some cheaper airplanes on ASO, etc? What about after you pay for the pre-buy, transport, and the first visit to your mechanic to have it sorted out. That can easily add $6k or more to the cost of acquisition. If their ask is reasonable for a fully sorted-out airplane, then yes, it is unreasonable to expect them to come down to some random (in their eyes) number you have budgeted. Of course, if it is not the right airplane then that is a compelling consideration. Just realize you may wait forever to find that perfect Mooney or Van's partnership at a convenient airport. What is the worst that can happen here? You buy in, something else comes along, and you sell at a loss or even miss out. Factor the somewhat remote possibility of that vs the surety of owning an airplane that suits your needs.
 
peevee said:
I agree! It's taken me 10 years and I still haven't found the right one. :mad2:
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Watch out when you do, it's like first time sex ("gosh, that was fun, let's do it again!").

One year into an airplane partnership, and contract on another this week!

Please, no one show me a deal on a twin. At least for another year . . . :D
 
peevee said:
Don't know. I don't know how readily I can sell my share if I wanted. Sounds like they've been trying awhile.

I was talking to a guy with a nice mooney, he scared me away. the thing was going to need like 10k+ in upgrades and repairs after the buy in :hairraise:
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But you said it was a nice Mooney? One reason owners often look to bring in partners is to pay for repairs/upgrades. Nothing wrong with that if you buy in at the present value and are in agreement with the repairs/upgrades seeing that as at least 50% of the $$ spend there will be money lost as it will not increase the valuation dollar for dollar. If you and a friend look at an airplane and are willing to pay $40k knowing it is going to need $20 to get it in the shape you want how is that different than buying a 50% share for $20k knowing you will have to come up with another $10k as your share of repairs/upgrades?

Regarding don't rush. Sheesh, It ain't your wife or your life. You could have spent the last ten years owning an airplane and if everything wasn't "perfect", so what? It is like anything else, there are dreamers and doers. Doers make mistakes, take losses, etc. then do better and get it right. Dreamers dream. If you found something that works for you and you can afford it, then do your due diligence (the part of "don't rush" I agree with) and go for it!
 
Well, just remember that "perfection is the enemy of the good" and of the done. Good luck.
 
peevee said:
I can easily go buy one that's had all that done for 40k and sell 2 shares to someone else and have an as nice or nicer airplane for a lot less.
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There's your answer. Why not do it?
 
peevee said:
it's not only engine, the reserve is for repairs basically. fixed cost like annual, insurance, hangar, that all comes out of pocket but repairs, tires, eventually an overhaul comes out of the other account. I think 20/hr is fair, that don't bother me, what's a few extra dollars an hour. I just simplified it in my explanation to keep it brief and I don't know down to the fine details exactly what it is and isn't used for, oil changes for example may or may not be included.
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A well maintained mid-70's 182 will need a prop/engine "reserve" of approx $16/hr, including all the R&R costs and typical accessories that will get swapped at an engine OH or swap.

Maintenance reserve, separate from engine/prop, will likely average $30 to $40/hr, with the range varying based on the number of hours per year flown. Closer to $30/hr if it flies a lot, $40/hr if not much. Some stuff has to be done regardless of hours flown. This is based on 9 years of 182 maintainance averaging 170 hours/year (tach time).
 
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