What did I do wrong?

COFlyBoy

COFlyBoy

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COFlyBoy
So on Sunday, I flew from Albuquerque (KAEG) back to Brighton, CO (CO12, just north of KDEN). I got flight following just north of Albuquerque, and had hand-offs all the way to Denver. About 4 miles south of Denver's class Bravo, I realized that I hadn't gotten clearance into the Bravo, nor had I been handed off to approach.:yikes:

I quickly asked center for clearance, which was denied (cuz its not their airspace), so I had to do an immediate 180.:mad: During the 180, Center gave me a hand-off to approach, who then cleared me into the Bravo.:mad2:

So, my question is did I miss something here? Should I have prompted for the hand-off? Seems to me like center forgot about me.
I guess I did learn to make sure to have that clearance more than a minute out.

P.S. I like smilies.:lol: I'll do a writeup of the whole trip soon.
 
Well, the first thing you did wrong was you didn't call me when you were in town for a beer or something.

Beyond that, I've had this happen, but its rare. Usually you'll get handed off earlier. Keep an eye on your situation and as you get closer than about 20 miles, gently ask center if you can go to approach. If they say no, ask them for clearance. They'll usually hand you off then.

But, you didn't bust bravo, so you didn't do anything "wrong" (except not calling me for a beer).
 
SkyHog said:
Well, the first thing you did wrong was you didn't call me when you were in town for a beer or something.
Click to expand...

My bad. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again. I do want to meet folks in person.
 
COFlyBoy said:
So on Sunday, I flew from Albuquerque (KAEG) back to Brighton, CO (CO12, just north of KDEN). I got flight following just north of Albuquerque, and had hand-offs all the way to Denver. About 4 miles south of Denver's class Bravo, I realized that I hadn't gotten clearance into the Bravo, nor had I been handed off to approach.:yikes:

I quickly asked center for clearance, which was denied (cuz its not their airspace), so I had to do an immediate 180.:mad: During the 180, Center gave me a hand-off to approach, who then cleared me into the Bravo.:mad2:

So, my question is did I miss something here? Should I have prompted for the hand-off? Seems to me like center forgot about me.
I guess I did learn to make sure to have that clearance more than a minute out.

P.S. I like smilies.:lol: I'll do a writeup of the whole trip soon.
Click to expand...

Do something wrong? Yes, but let he who is without mistakes when dealing with ATC cast the first stone. As others have pointed out, if you don't have clearance to the Class Bravo you need to take action to get it. I get very complacent (VFR) as I am buzzing along with FF, but happily my GPS tells me as I am approaching controlled airspace and if I feel uncomfortable, I let them know in advance--the worst they can do is say stand by. Many times they have just forgotten about you or got distracted. If the "keepers of the space" don't want you in there they will tell you, but you have to talk directly to them.

I had a similar situation headed from south TX up to Meacham (in the dreaded DFW zone). As I approached the DFW Class B, I asked center, they switched me and DFW said "N5976Q you are not, I repeat you are not, cleared to the class bravo. Descend to a ridiculously low altitude and proceed to FTW". Well, maybe I have embellished it a bit. Turns out that DFW is so busy, there are so many airports in the zone as well as former president's homes and the like that you basically need an act of congress (or be sitting on top of a 747) to get cleared in. Amazingly, they let you out with no issue. On the way back an hour later they cleared me immediately into the Class B with a g'day and good riddance.

So, as long as you aren't talking over someone, aviate and then communicate.
 
No NASA report is necessary - as I read this he did the 180 before entering the bravo.

The key thing to keep in mind is that even when you're getting flight following, you're still VFR and still responsible for airspace penetration.

I had NY approach keep me until I was 1 mile from FRG's class D doing about 190 knots, and just dumped me (squawk VFR, good day). I busted the D space and had a discussion on the ground with a tower guy. It was my fault, no question, but I was complacent and expected better/different service from NY approach. The tower guy said it happens frequently, so he was annoyed but not surprised. Now when I go up there I either go IFR or I TELL approach what I want.

The OP did a good job of dealing with the problem. Next time he'll do a good job of avoiding it.
 
Tim, NASA forms are for more then just the "Get out of Jail" card. It's to study the saftey of the system and determine room for improvement. It may not be necessary, but it's a good idea to report a near miss.
 
Sometimes approach or center forget they are working with VFR. Similar thing happened to me one time. I was talking to NY approach on Flight Following. They restricted my altitude so that descending below the floor of Bravo was not an option, but they hadn't given a vector. Approach was really busy with traffic (as always). As I neared the boundary of Class B, I began a 360 to remain clear until I could break in on the radio. Approach saw the deviation, came on the air and asked why I was turning, then interrupted himself with, "Oh, I see. Cleared into the Class Bravo."

He knew I was there, just forgot I was VFR.
 
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TMetzinger said:
No NASA report is necessary - as I read this he did the 180 before entering the bravo.

The key thing to keep in mind is that even when you're getting flight following, you're still VFR and still responsible for airspace penetration.

I had NY approach keep me until I was 1 mile from FRG's class D doing about 190 knots, and just dumped me (squawk VFR, good day). I busted the D space and had a discussion on the ground with a tower guy. It was my fault, no question, but I was complacent and expected better/different service from NY approach. The tower guy said it happens frequently, so he was annoyed but not surprised. Now when I go up there I either go IFR or I TELL approach what I want.

The OP did a good job of dealing with the problem. Next time he'll do a good job of avoiding it.
Click to expand...

??

Sounds like a perfect reason for the ASRS.

"almost got into trouble, here's what I did to avoid it. Maybe ATC should pay more attention."
 
Correct. I filed one last year in a similarish situation. It's not just to cover your butt.
 
Hmmm. I've been considering an ASRS.

This seems more like an issue of procedures than safety.

No one was in danger, no airspace was busted, no FARs were violated and no airline revenues were harmed, so I was just gonna chalk it up to learnin'.
 
EdFred said:
Correct. I filed one last year in a similarish situation. It's not just to cover your butt.
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Correct I have had approach bring me to the edge of the Bravo with no clearance. I knew to ask and did so but go the standby and stayed outside the Bravo flying circles never got clearance so just decended below the Bravo. No Bust here but Perhaps the system could be improved thus the suggestion for the report.
 
Missa said:
Tim, NASA forms are for more then just the "Get out of Jail" card. It's to study the saftey of the system and determine room for improvement. It may not be necessary, but it's a good idea to report a near miss.
Click to expand...

What near miss? Oh, you mean he nearly collided with the airspace?

This wouldn't meet MY criteria for a "helpful FYI" ASRS form, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

No butts need covering in this indicent.
 
TMetzinger said:
What near miss? Oh, you mean he nearly collided with the airspace?

This wouldn't meet MY criteria for a "helpful FYI" ASRS form, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

No butts need covering in this indicent.
Click to expand...

A near miss on an airspace bust due to both ATC "forgetting" him and not asking earlier for the Class B clearance.

Your butt being covered is only the paymet for submitting the form. What we all get out of the submitted forms is stastical data on what went wrong so it can be fixed.
 
I don't really see the issue here. Just this week I was flying west towards FRG and wanted a Bravo clearance back to NJ. When I was about 12-15 miles out, I queried ATC who said he was really busy and was working on it. I'm waiting, waiting, getting closer, so when no response came, I simply said I was descending to 2500 to duck under the shelf. If I thought the clearance was really going to happen, I would have done some 180's or s-turns or something.

As long as you know the Bravo is there, and you don't bust it, it's all good.
 
COFlyBoy - can I cut'n paste your post over on the CO4x4 forum? There's a Denver Center controller (or is he tower? dunno) ... over there.
 
gkainz said:
COFlyBoy - can I cut'n paste your post over on the CO4x4 forum? There's a Denver Center controller (or is he tower? dunno) ... over there.
Click to expand...

No prob. It'd be interesting to find out what the controller's view is. There are differences in how different controllers handle VFR traffic.

In retrospect, this was definitely a case of complacency on my part. I should have been more pro-active in getting clearance into the bravo, instead of just waiting for it.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Sometimes approach or center forget they are working with VFR.
...
He knew I was there, just forgot I was VFR.
Click to expand...

I can roger that! I have had this happen many times, in fact, I read somewhere that the FAA would just like us all to be IFR and that was one of the reasons (IIRC) that they reduced the time requirement from private to IFR rating.

On the other hand, since I am working towards IFR, I like them treating me that way if nothing but for the comm practice. Nevertheless, you do have to remind them and you have to stay on top of airspace issues.
 
It sounds like you were sharp enough to realize that you didn't have the clearance to be in the Bravo so you turned back. Center just forgot about you. Use the ASRS even if you aren't covering your butt. We use them often enough when something odd happens. There may be many others that have had that happen to them as well. Sending in the form helps to get data across that can help reshape problematic areas or issues.
 
COFlyBoy said:
This seems more like an issue of procedures than safety.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly what ASRS was built to find -- systemic problems requiring solutions. Given that it is not unique for a VFR aircraft receiving ATC service to be allowed up to the edge of B-space without a word, perhaps something should be done on the ATC end to keep it from happening in the future, as an inadvertant B-space could compromise safety.
 
Yes, and another problem can occur when VFR pilots are mixed with class B IFR. There was the time I was cleared into Bravo and given an altitude to fly. As clouds intersected my direct path, I deviated only to (once again) have Approach ask why I was deviating. It could have been a problem because I wasn't going where he expected me. Now, I try to make sure ATC knows whatever I'm doing when using Flight Following. Should have written an ASRS for that, too.
 
I don't believe that ATC is under any obligation to remind a pilot of airspace ahead and the pilots responsibilities relative to that airspace, under RTIS (flight following.) BUT, I would imagine they have an obligation to properly hand off the VFR traffic to another facility when it is leaving the controller's jurisdiction, or else cancel radar service.

In other words, we are talking about two different issues here, and I know for myself it is easy to get too comfortable with flight following (or TRSA service for that matter, which I avail myself of quite often at Fairbanks) and imagine I will receive the same services (and instructions) as I would under an IFR clearance (and quite frankly sometimes we do, bless ATC.) Really we aren't.

So what happened here really is center forgot to hand you off so you could legally leave the frequency and request clearance into the class B from approach, as you knew you would need to do, based on your understanding of where you were relative to the airspace boundary ;)
 
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alaskaflyer said:
So what happened here really is center forgot to hand you off so you could legally leave the frequency and request clearance into the class B from approach, as you knew you would need to do, based on your understanding of where you were relative to the airspace boundary ;)
Click to expand...

I tried that once and ended up getting told to contact the previous controller who was trying to get in touch with me for 20 minutes. I didn't even see the carrier pigeons that they dispatched to get my attention. Squelch on the radios was a little off so when I got out a distance from the controller I could no longer receive his transmissions so I switched to the next center who promptly advised me to get back on the original frequency. The controller has some what of an attitude but it was a yoke controller error and won't happen again!

WD
 
Here's the response from the Approach Controller I mentioned up above: reposted with permission
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I started a response the question and found myself adding in other advice for VFR traffic in the Denver Terminal area (40 NM around Denver), so excuse the length.

Most of the responses spot-on. VFR is VFR and you are responsible for yourself!

The center in this case screwed, up but that wouldn't help him out if he busted the Bravo. ATC cannot fly an aircraft on a transponder code into another controllers airspace without the receiving taking the "hand-off" or a "point-out".

You do not need to fill out the report. You did get clearance into bravo and you would have been asked to call the TRACON if there was some kind of problem. As you know, your fine. IF you were asked to call the TRACON, just be nice and humble and they will tell you what you did wrong, why it became an issue and, more than likely, tell you to have a great day and be done with it.

Here's my advice:
Denver is now the 3rd busiest airport in the country(!) beating LAX, SFO, DFW, JFK and LAS. PLEASE STAY CLEAR OF THE BRAVO!

Check Denver's arrival ATIS and find out which way the airport is landing. Our airspace is very VERY complex. For example, if the airport is landing to the North we create the Final Dump airspace where arrivals will be approaching from the South just above, AND SOMETIMES BELOW, the Class Bravo airspace.

Dial in Departures frequency* and check to see how busy they are. If you cant get a word in, please do your best to stay off the freq. If they're not too busy call 'em up, get a code, but be quick with transmission.

Who
Position
Altitude now, and what you're climbing to
Destination -NOT YOUR ROUTING


"Denver Approach, Skylane 2-8-3-3-Kilo."
- 3-3-Kilo Denver Approach (altimeter), say request.
"Skylane 3-3-Kilo, 5 South of Centennial, 7 thousand climbing to 9 thousand 5 hundred, request flight following to Pueblo"

If you hear us getting busy AND you feel that you no longer need service, please jump in and say "3-3-kilo, cancel Flight Following, thanks." Getting you "tag" off the scope can really help us out.

Please try to cut out the "Yeah, we are..." "Uh we would like to..."

I can't explain to you what I'm looking at on my end. I might have a critical turn that needs to be made in 4 SECONDS. I am putting my career and the safety of the aircraft that needs the critical turn in your hands by giving you those 4 seconds.

A lot of us are pilots too and WANT to help you out as much as we can! It's just not possible sometime.

On a side note for those practicing approaches, Colorado Springs has been very slow lately. A lot of Sunday morning "breakfast club" pilots head down to Pueblo thinking it's a better place to play. You might want to transition through the Class C, see if they're busy and possibly consider staying.

*West of Denver 126.1
North 127.05
East 128.25
South 128.45
COS 124.0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Exocetid said:
Do something wrong? Yes, but let he who is without mistakes when dealing with ATC cast the first stone. As others have pointed out, if you don't have clearance to the Class Bravo you need to take action to get it. I get very complacent (VFR) as I am buzzing along with FF, but happily my GPS tells me as I am approaching controlled airspace and if I feel uncomfortable, I let them know in advance--the worst they can do is say stand by. Many times they have just forgotten about you or got distracted. If the "keepers of the space" don't want you in there they will tell you, but you have to talk directly to them.

I had a similar situation headed from south TX up to Meacham (in the dreaded DFW zone). As I approached the DFW Class B, I asked center, they switched me and DFW said "N5976Q you are not, I repeat you are not, cleared to the class bravo. Descend to a ridiculously low altitude and proceed to FTW". Well, maybe I have embellished it a bit. Turns out that DFW is so busy, there are so many airports in the zone as well as former president's homes and the like that you basically need an act of congress (or be sitting on top of a 747) to get cleared in. Amazingly, they let you out with no issue. On the way back an hour later they cleared me immediately into the Class B with a g'day and good riddance.

So, as long as you aren't talking over someone, aviate and then communicate.
Click to expand...

I've never had to request a clearance in the DFW Bravo*. I don't understand the problem here....:)





* - The beauty of being IFR
 
gkainz said:
COFlyBoy - can I cut'n paste your post over on the CO4x4 forum? There's a Denver Center controller (or is he tower? dunno) ... over there.
Click to expand...

Greg,

I think he's either center or approach, not tower.

Edt: Just saw your second post. Nice job.
 
Where in Brighton did you land? I live in Fort Lupton which is the next town North. I fly out of Front Range airport which is a Class D located inside of the Denver Class B radius. I was wondering if there was an airport in Brighton?
 
I fly out of Van-Aire Airpark CO12 (my folks live there). It is just to the north of the innermost ring of the DEN class B.
Platte Valley airport (18V) is in Hudson (6 miles from Ft. Lupton). You could fly out of there. I'm not sure if they have airplane rentals, but they do rent hangars. Call them up and find out what they've got. The folks there are really friendly. Cheap gas also.
Here's a google map link:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Fort+Lupton,+CO&daddr=18V&hl=en&geocode=FeKkYwIdHa7A-SmdPiK0iRFshzF8t_iWToZ4wQ%3BFY_gYwIdaGPC-Skhcfa-ZBZshzFJiBTZUmPl0Q&mra=ls&sll=39.933555,-104.696885&sspn=0.348024,0.460052&ie=UTF8&z=12
 
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Nothing "wrong" happened, but a couple of "not quite right" things happened. First, Center forgot about you, it happens. Second, you weren't in full situational awareness and control of your navigation, it happens as well. You should always have a last point pre determined of when you want to start a descent or have a clearance to to proceed with whatever comes next that will allow an ATC controller to "remember" you and play catch up with what he needs to do with you without requiring any extraordinary maneuvering. Like I said, no big deal, you picked up on it, but if you would have picked up on it a bit sooner, it would have been a lot less stressful. All it takes is just a friendly "Denver center 0AB, am I going to get a clearance into the B or should I make alternate plans?" far enough out that he has a minute to hand you off and the new controller has a minute to assess you and issue you a clearance without having to "fly a hold".
 
I always get flight following on a VFR flight and have been "forgotten" twice. The first time was from Atlanta Center and it would have been close to a Memphis hand-off, I just called a Memphis frequency that I had gotten on the previous flight, and they gave me a good frequency.

The second time I wasn't aware that I had been forgotten and could have busted Bravo airspace, I didn't realize what was going on until almost too late. I was still hearing aircraft, but not Memphis ATC, I got within 10nm of Bravo airspace and tried to call Center on the current frequency didn't get a response so immediately started a rather steep decent to get below the outer ring. I changed to approach frequency and they immediately came back to me with "cleared into Bravo", I was very close to the outer ring and I won't say which side of the line I was on. Center had already contacted my destination (KOLV a "D" airspace inside the inner ring of Memphis "B") and told them I was coming in and that I was NORDO.

It happens, it's better to be ready further ahead than I was the second time when it does.
 
About a week ago we headed from Bridgeport to Wings. Called for Flight Following upon leaving Bridgeport and asked whether we could cross Manhattan inside the Bravo. Approach asked whether we could do 5500 or 6500 and I chose 6500. He echoed 6500 and there was no further word until my little airplane on the GPS got within bumping distance of the NY Bravo. I keyed the mike and asked, "Cleared into the Bravo?" and he replied, "Affirmative." Never heard the magic words from him, but carried on in the spirit of the regulation.
 
It happened again on the way to the FlyBQ.

Manhattan and the NY Class Bravo are right in the middle of our path from Bridgeport to Wings field outside Philadelphia. So, we asked for flight following immediately after departing Bridgeport and got clearance through the Bravo at 6500 feet. As we crossed over LaGuardia, I noticed Hubby's hand hovering near the frequency-change knob for Comm 1. He was expecting NY approach to give a frequency change and he was getting ready. We flew on, over the East River, Central Park, and the Hudson River without getting the anticipated call. We journeyed on over central New Jersey and noticed that another Cessna 172 with a similar call-sign was handled and handed off. Nary a word to us, though. Finally, the airwaves became quiet, so I keyed the mike with "NY Approach, 4307R, are you still handling us?" "What do you mean?" he asked. "Well, it's been awhile since we talked to each other and I was just wondering." After a moment, "Where are you?" Hubby gave him our location, "34 miles south of Solsburg." "South of Solsburg?" "Affirmative." After another pause, we were given a hand-off.

I just wonder how much of NY airspace we traversed with no one watching.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
I just wonder how much of NY airspace we traversed with no one watching.
Click to expand...

I understand and accept the responsibility for getting clearance to enter airspace, but I don't really feel comfortable accepting the responsibility of determining when the controller has forgotten about me. The problem is, I expect the handoff and don't realize they are not giving it until it is time to do a 180.

Should I pester every controller when I'm 5 minutes from the edge of their airspace? How about when I'm talking to center and have no idea where the edge of their airspace is? Do IFR flights get dropped like this?

Here in Colorado, I can avoid all B, C, and D airspace if I want to, but I can see the problems on the East Coast.
 
AuntPeggy said:
It happened again on the way to the FlyBQ.

Manhattan and the NY Class Bravo are right in the middle of our path from Bridgeport to Wings field outside Philadelphia. So, we asked for flight following immediately after departing Bridgeport and got clearance through the Bravo at 6500 feet. As we crossed over LaGuardia, I noticed Hubby's hand hovering near the frequency-change knob for Comm 1. He was expecting NY approach to give a frequency change and he was getting ready. We flew on, over the East River, Central Park, and the Hudson River without getting the anticipated call. We journeyed on over central New Jersey and noticed that another Cessna 172 with a similar call-sign was handled and handed off. Nary a word to us, though. Finally, the airwaves became quiet, so I keyed the mike with "NY Approach, 4307R, are you still handling us?" "What do you mean?" he asked. "Well, it's been awhile since we talked to each other and I was just wondering." After a moment, "Where are you?" Hubby gave him our location, "34 miles south of Solsburg." "South of Solsburg?" "Affirmative." After another pause, we were given a hand-off.

I just wonder how much of NY airspace we traversed with no one watching.
Click to expand...

And yet people are relying on RTIS for SAR :nonod:
 
COFlyBoy said:
I understand and accept the responsibility for getting clearance to enter airspace, but I don't really feel comfortable accepting the responsibility of determining when the controller has forgotten about me. The problem is, I expect the handoff and don't realize they are not giving it until it is time to do a 180.

Should I pester every controller when I'm 5 minutes from the edge of their airspace? How about when I'm talking to center and have no idea where the edge of their airspace is? Do IFR flights get dropped like this?
Click to expand...

I've been forgotten IFR... After I had a pretty good idea that I'd been forgotten, I keyed up and asked. Luckily, I was still close enough (barely) for comms to work.

IME, it's fairly rare to simply be forgotten. But, if you're approaching lines on the chart, you'd do well to ask. If you want center boundaries and frequencies, buy IFR charts. They don't have the sector boundaries, but you can guess somewhat based on the frequency boxes.
 
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