Bill
Touchdown! Greaser!
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- Mar 2, 2005
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TMetzinger said:I think it's always better to overbudget for a "toy" like an airplane and have money left over,
N2212R said:I've had 2 annuals on my plane - both under $600. I don't see $1000 being out of line.
I would tend to agree. $2000 for the annual, $30 for airframe/engine (depending on the time left on whatever you buy. Maybe more.) and 16 gph.James_Dean said:2. I'd go to $2k/year on annuals. I'm currently in my fourth annual since I've owned the bird and if I remove all airframe mx items I'd be at $1750.
3. I don't think you've got enough in for engine and airframe reserve. I'm running about $12 - 14 just on the airframe. I'm using $13 for my engine reserve. You also don't have anything in for paint reserve, which on a tiedown I would plan on calculating. $6 - $10/hour. I'd double your estimate to $31 per hour.
5. I'd budget 16GPH. You'll get 15 gph in cruise at 65%, but don't forget the 27 - 30 GPH you'll be gulping during your climb.
Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.grattonja said:My Saratoga club is currently paying $120 per hour wet for time in the bird.
Ken Ibold said:And where can you get an oil change for $75? My bill is typically twice that when I have a shop do it.
James_Dean said:1. Is your insurance cost so high because of multiple pilots? I'm at $2600 for $1mm smooth with 300 in type and $165k in hull value.
2. I'd go to $2k/year on annuals.
3. I'd double your estimate to $31 per hour.
4. 5. I'd budget 16GPH. You'll get 15 gph in cruise at 65%, but don't forget the 27 - 30 GPH you'll be gulping during your climb.
Ken Ibold said:Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.
It adds up fast, don't it?Bill Jennings said:OK, so the latest suggestions by youse guys has our hourly wet at ~$108/hr, and monthly fixed costs at about $600 to be divided by # of owners.
N2212R said:I've had 2 annuals on my plane - both under $600. I don't see $1000 being out of line.
Ken Ibold said:It adds up fast, don't it?
Bill Jennings said:OK, bumped up the annual to 2000, doubled the engine/airframe reserve, and bumped up fuel burn to 17gph.
My PA-32 (now granted that was a retract, but same engine) burned an average of 14.8 over 3 years and 425 hours cruising at 65 percent (150 kts).Dave Krall CFII said:That fuel burn may work if you're just driving around like most pilots do but, if you're gonna really fly a great bird like that on a regular basis, it will burn more.
Yeah, what he said.TMetzinger said:That $108 sounds a lot more reasonable. You need to be sure the partnership agreement spells out how the money is managed, and how the reserves are handled. Don't "invest" the reserves - short term CD's aren't a bad idea, but I know of one operation that played stocks and bonds with the reserves, and had an engine failure and a market downturn in the same quarter and the partners had to dig into their personal net worth to get the airplane fixed.
I STRONGLY suggest that a partnership airplane be owned by a holding company, not for liability concerns, but so that you can enforce multi-person-integrity on the finances, and partners can come and go without having to re-register the airplane. You can even take on partners of variable equity, though the operating rate stays the same. You can also spell out the standard of care for the airplane, meaning the duties the partners owe each other to keep the airplane nice and safe.
An annual review of the airplane's usage is a good idea, as you'll usually find that the more it's used, the more maintenance on consumables (tires, lights) there is, but overall your maintenance costs generally go down, so you may be able to reduce your hourly rate if the airplane is flown frequently.
TMetzinger said:That $108 sounds a lot more reasonable.
I STRONGLY suggest that a partnership airplane be owned by a holding company, not for liability concerns, but so that you can enforce multi-person-integrity on the finances, and partners can come and go without having to re-register the airplane.
Bill Jennings said:That is what most of the quick quotes yeild. Remember, we're both 250hr IR pilots, with zero in type. So, we'd probably be getting insured at 25 in type at first.
Dave Krall CFII said:That fuel burn may work if you're just driving around like most pilots do but, if you're gonna really fly a great bird like that on a regular basis, it will burn more.
Bill Jennings said:We're already in contact with a lawyer to put together an LLC to own the aircraft, and each partner will bring cash to the deal so the corp owns the A/C outright. How each partner gets his cash is his business.
And as you said, we'll hammer out all of the points and have it in contract.
Ken Ibold said:Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.
OK, we're in the same ballpark. We're looking at 100/hr wet plus ~250 fixed per person per month (times 4). But we're not actually going to do a wet rate. We'll do $55 dry to the partnership fund and each person buys their own gas. Want to go faster? Pay more. Plus, gas at my base field is still $5.25, but 10 miles away it's $3.50grattonja said:Sorry, Ken, thought I put it in my original post. 120 per hour wet for the plane. $100 per member per month for hangar and insurance. I think those are the costs you were looking for. We pay for those separately, every month, flying or not flying. The insurance for the club has been the big bite so far. Unlike a partnership where just two people are flying, we have to try to keep insurance happy for 11 members. That proves to not be particularly easy.
Jim G
Anthony said:You can run numbers six ways to Sunday, but there's always a possibility of the big GOTCHA. If you can handle that, no problem. While I keep a spreadsheet on all the costs, it does not see the lightof day much, especially around my wife.
James_Dean said:If you have an engine monitor, it will not.
James Dean
Bill Jennings said:My wife WILL want to see the #'s, and that is the scary part.
Bill Jennings said:We're already in contact with a lawyer to put together an LLC to own the aircraft, and each partner will bring cash to the deal so the corp owns the A/C outright. How each partner gets his cash is his business.
Troy Whistman said:I'd then make sure it's contractually clear that NOBODY gets to secure their loan (if that's how they get the cash) with a lien on the aircraft, along with specified penalties if they do lien the aircraft and default on their loan. The money they bring to the table has to be totally unconnected with the airplane. That way, if they default, the bank goes after their truck (or house, or whatever other security they used) rather than the airplane.
Ken Ibold said:OK, we're in the same ballpark. We're looking at 100/hr wet plus ~250 fixed per person per month (times 4). But we're not actually going to do a wet rate. We'll do $55 dry to the partnership fund and each person buys their own gas. Want to go faster? Pay more. Plus, gas at my base field is still $5.25, but 10 miles away it's $3.50