What are we forgetting?

Bill

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My partner and I are trying to put pencil to paper and do an honest assesment of the fixed and hourly costs to own the airplane. These numbers are independent of how you get your money to the table to buy the aircraft.

What have we forgotten?
 

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I think your costs for an annual are low - as are your reserves for engine and prop, even if both are zero time when you get the airplane.

Your budget calls for a $1000 annual - that should cover the inspection and minor squawks, but wouldn't cover any AD/SB issues. I'd budget more and apply any surplus towards unexpected maintenance.

On your Engine and prop, assuming 2000 TBO, you're apparently estimating 30-odd thousand for the engine and 8000 for the prop. I think that those costs are low when you consider removal and reinstallation labor, and by the time you hit 2000 hours those costs will have risen, probably faster than any interest you'd have made on the savings. And it's far more likely that your engine will need major work sooner, based on what I've seen.

Plan on replacing the 496 every 5-7 years with the current portable, and plan on replacing the avionics stack every 15 years.

And, like buying a house, think hard about whether this is a "starter" airplane that you'll sell in the next 10 years, or if this is a longer commitment. Make your investments in upgrades accordingly.

I think it's always better to overbudget for a "toy" like an airplane and have money left over, than to underbudget and have the airplane grounded because you don't have the funds built up to fix it - that is especially hard on partnerships.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think it's always better to overbudget for a "toy" like an airplane and have money left over,

Thanks for the reply, Tim. Chewing it over.
 
I've had 2 annuals on my plane - both under $600. I don't see $1000 being out of line.

What you are forgetting, is the ability to not have to fight with 30 other renters/club members! That's worth 3 grand a month easy.
 
Unless you knew the plane before purchase, be prepared for the first couple of annuals to be more than you expected.
 
Bill,

I've owned a fixed gear 'toga for three years.

I'd only make a few changes to your budget.

1. Is your insurance cost so high because of multiple pilots? I'm at $2600 for $1mm smooth with 300 in type and $165k in hull value.

2. I'd go to $2k/year on annuals. I'm currently in my fourth annual since I've owned the bird and if I remove all airframe mx items I'd be at $1750.

3. I don't think you've got enough in for engine and airframe reserve. I'm running about $12 - 14 just on the airframe. I'm using $13 for my engine reserve. You also don't have anything in for paint reserve, which on a tiedown I would plan on calculating. $6 - $10/hour. I'd double your estimate to $31 per hour.

4. Unless I'm mistaken you need to budget a prop overhaul every 6 years. I'm using $600/year as a reserve for this cost.

5. I'd budget 16GPH. You'll get 15 gph in cruise at 65%, but don't forget the 27 - 30 GPH you'll be gulping during your climb.

James Dean
 
N2212R said:
I've had 2 annuals on my plane - both under $600. I don't see $1000 being out of line.

Bigger plane, bigger annual. :)

I'd budget for $2k for an airplane of that size with fixed gear.

That first annual is always the scary one.
 
My Saratoga club is currently paying $120 per hour wet for time in the bird. There is a minimum of 12 hours per year per member. Also, we pay $100 per month apiece for hangar rent and insurance. At this point in time, we are probably going to have to make an assessment for the next engine, we are starting to talk about that. We figure that will be around 32K when the time comes (our current engine is around 1200, so we've got 800 or so TBO).

We are running a bit too lean at $120 per hour, if that helps to give you some idea. Now, over time, we have managed to squeeze a new paint job and a panel upgrade with G430 out of this. But they also financed the last engine re-do as well. We are looking at a G396 with dock in January, but we're each going to kick in for that.

I think you numbers are a bit low.

Jim G
 
James_Dean said:
2. I'd go to $2k/year on annuals. I'm currently in my fourth annual since I've owned the bird and if I remove all airframe mx items I'd be at $1750.

3. I don't think you've got enough in for engine and airframe reserve. I'm running about $12 - 14 just on the airframe. I'm using $13 for my engine reserve. You also don't have anything in for paint reserve, which on a tiedown I would plan on calculating. $6 - $10/hour. I'd double your estimate to $31 per hour.

5. I'd budget 16GPH. You'll get 15 gph in cruise at 65%, but don't forget the 27 - 30 GPH you'll be gulping during your climb.
I would tend to agree. $2000 for the annual, $30 for airframe/engine (depending on the time left on whatever you buy. Maybe more.) and 16 gph.

And where can you get an oil change for $75? My bill is typically twice that when I have a shop do it.
 
grattonja said:
My Saratoga club is currently paying $120 per hour wet for time in the bird.
Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.
 
Ken Ibold said:
And where can you get an oil change for $75? My bill is typically twice that when I have a shop do it.

We were quoted $150 as well, but I'll do the changes myself.
 
Set-asides for paint, upholstry. Expect the first 2 annuals to run at least $2000 even on a good plane. Incidentals such as tires, brakes, light bulbs, corrosionX, wash & wax.
 
Last edited:
James_Dean said:
1. Is your insurance cost so high because of multiple pilots? I'm at $2600 for $1mm smooth with 300 in type and $165k in hull value.

That is what most of the quick quotes yeild. Remember, we're both 250hr IR pilots, with zero in type. So, we'd probably be getting insured at 25 in type at first.

2. I'd go to $2k/year on annuals.

3. I'd double your estimate to $31 per hour.

4. 5. I'd budget 16GPH. You'll get 15 gph in cruise at 65%, but don't forget the 27 - 30 GPH you'll be gulping during your climb.

OK, bumped up the annual to 2000, doubled the engine/airframe reserve, and bumped up fuel burn to 17gph.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.

OK, so the latest suggestions by youse guys has our hourly wet at ~$108/hr, and monthly fixed costs at about $600 to be divided by # of owners.
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, so the latest suggestions by youse guys has our hourly wet at ~$108/hr, and monthly fixed costs at about $600 to be divided by # of owners.
It adds up fast, don't it?
 
N2212R said:
I've had 2 annuals on my plane - both under $600. I don't see $1000 being out of line.

Maybe not, but I had a $3000.00 annual on a Cessna 150. Littles things like the alternator, tires, carburator, plugs, brakes etc add up fast. If everything is OK, the $1000.00 may cover it.
 
Ken Ibold said:
It adds up fast, don't it?

It does. I'm OK with it, but I'm afraid it will start to pinch the boss's spending money, and that will get me hurt quick! :hairraise:
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, bumped up the annual to 2000, doubled the engine/airframe reserve, and bumped up fuel burn to 17gph.

That fuel burn may work if you're just driving around like most pilots do but, if you're gonna really fly a great bird like that on a regular basis, it will burn more.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
That fuel burn may work if you're just driving around like most pilots do but, if you're gonna really fly a great bird like that on a regular basis, it will burn more.
My PA-32 (now granted that was a retract, but same engine) burned an average of 14.8 over 3 years and 425 hours cruising at 65 percent (150 kts).
 
That $108 sounds a lot more reasonable. You need to be sure the partnership agreement spells out how the money is managed, and how the reserves are handled. Don't "invest" the reserves - short term CD's aren't a bad idea, but I know of one operation that played stocks and bonds with the reserves, and had an engine failure and a market downturn in the same quarter and the partners had to dig into their personal net worth to get the airplane fixed.

I STRONGLY suggest that a partnership airplane be owned by a holding company, not for liability concerns, but so that you can enforce multi-person-integrity on the finances, and partners can come and go without having to re-register the airplane. You can even take on partners of variable equity, though the operating rate stays the same. You can also spell out the standard of care for the airplane, meaning the duties the partners owe each other to keep the airplane nice and safe.

An annual review of the airplane's usage is a good idea, as you'll usually find that the more it's used, the more maintenance on consumables (tires, lights) there is, but overall your maintenance costs generally go down, so you may be able to reduce your hourly rate if the airplane is flown frequently.
 
TMetzinger said:
That $108 sounds a lot more reasonable. You need to be sure the partnership agreement spells out how the money is managed, and how the reserves are handled. Don't "invest" the reserves - short term CD's aren't a bad idea, but I know of one operation that played stocks and bonds with the reserves, and had an engine failure and a market downturn in the same quarter and the partners had to dig into their personal net worth to get the airplane fixed.

I STRONGLY suggest that a partnership airplane be owned by a holding company, not for liability concerns, but so that you can enforce multi-person-integrity on the finances, and partners can come and go without having to re-register the airplane. You can even take on partners of variable equity, though the operating rate stays the same. You can also spell out the standard of care for the airplane, meaning the duties the partners owe each other to keep the airplane nice and safe.

An annual review of the airplane's usage is a good idea, as you'll usually find that the more it's used, the more maintenance on consumables (tires, lights) there is, but overall your maintenance costs generally go down, so you may be able to reduce your hourly rate if the airplane is flown frequently.
Yeah, what he said.
 
TMetzinger said:
That $108 sounds a lot more reasonable.

I STRONGLY suggest that a partnership airplane be owned by a holding company, not for liability concerns, but so that you can enforce multi-person-integrity on the finances, and partners can come and go without having to re-register the airplane.

We're already in contact with a lawyer to put together an LLC to own the aircraft, and each partner will bring cash to the deal so the corp owns the A/C outright. How each partner gets his cash is his business.

And as you said, we'll hammer out all of the points and have it in contract.
 
Bill Jennings said:
That is what most of the quick quotes yeild. Remember, we're both 250hr IR pilots, with zero in type. So, we'd probably be getting insured at 25 in type at first.

When I bought mine I only had 75 TT and working on my IR. That first year it was $2900 with $147k hull, 100k sublimits, $1MM total.


James Dean
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
That fuel burn may work if you're just driving around like most pilots do but, if you're gonna really fly a great bird like that on a regular basis, it will burn more.


If you have an engine monitor, it will not.


James Dean
 
Bill Jennings said:
We're already in contact with a lawyer to put together an LLC to own the aircraft, and each partner will bring cash to the deal so the corp owns the A/C outright. How each partner gets his cash is his business.

And as you said, we'll hammer out all of the points and have it in contract.

Sounds good - LLCs are a good vehicle as they'll generally protect the other partners personal assets from negligence on the part of one partner. One potential gotcha - be sure that you partners can cash out and new partners can buy in, so the LLC can survive it's founders. Ideally, instead of selling the airplane, you could someday sell the LLC!
 
Ken Ibold said:
Jim, do you amortize the fixed costs into that or is there a separate fixed monthly? On a similar airplane my partnership is planning $100/hr wet plus monthly pro-rated hangar and insurance, which I have to believe is plenty.


Sorry, Ken, thought I put it in my original post. 120 per hour wet for the plane. $100 per member per month for hangar and insurance. I think those are the costs you were looking for. We pay for those separately, every month, flying or not flying. The insurance for the club has been the big bite so far. Unlike a partnership where just two people are flying, we have to try to keep insurance happy for 11 members. That proves to not be particularly easy.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
Sorry, Ken, thought I put it in my original post. 120 per hour wet for the plane. $100 per member per month for hangar and insurance. I think those are the costs you were looking for. We pay for those separately, every month, flying or not flying. The insurance for the club has been the big bite so far. Unlike a partnership where just two people are flying, we have to try to keep insurance happy for 11 members. That proves to not be particularly easy.

Jim G
OK, we're in the same ballpark. We're looking at 100/hr wet plus ~250 fixed per person per month (times 4). But we're not actually going to do a wet rate. We'll do $55 dry to the partnership fund and each person buys their own gas. Want to go faster? Pay more. Plus, gas at my base field is still $5.25, but 10 miles away it's $3.50
 
Bill,

You can run numbers six ways to Sunday, but there's always a possibility of the big GOTCHA. If you can handle that, no problem. While I keep a spreadsheet on all the costs, it does not see the lightof day much, especially around my wife. :(
 
Anthony said:
You can run numbers six ways to Sunday, but there's always a possibility of the big GOTCHA. If you can handle that, no problem. While I keep a spreadsheet on all the costs, it does not see the lightof day much, especially around my wife. :(

My wife WILL want to see the #'s, and that is the scary part.

But the funny thing, when all is said and done, for every 10hrs flown it will only be about 0.5 AMU higher than renting the club 182, and I'll be owning my own.

It will happen. Just a matter of finding the right bird.
 
James_Dean said:
If you have an engine monitor, it will not.


James Dean

What I mean by "fly" it, is do lots of maneuvers for fun and practice with lots of power changes plus, I don't think I've ever 'voluntarily' cruised at 65% power in ANY bird!
 
I put together a paper on ownership costs of a typical, simple 4-seater. I will send it to anyone who sends a request VIA EMAIL (NOT PM OR POST HERE).
 
Bill Jennings said:
My wife WILL want to see the #'s, and that is the scary part.


Oh, I like to kid. My wife knows exactly what it costs to own, operate and maintain the plane. She's fine with it, but rolls her eyes on occasion when we get some of the bigger bills.
 
If your first two anuals are anything like mine...you forgot vasoline.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We're already in contact with a lawyer to put together an LLC to own the aircraft, and each partner will bring cash to the deal so the corp owns the A/C outright. How each partner gets his cash is his business.

I'd then make sure it's contractually clear that NOBODY gets to secure their loan (if that's how they get the cash) with a lien on the aircraft, along with specified penalties if they do lien the aircraft and default on their loan. The money they bring to the table has to be totally unconnected with the airplane. That way, if they default, the bank goes after their truck (or house, or whatever other security they used) rather than the airplane.
 
Troy Whistman said:
I'd then make sure it's contractually clear that NOBODY gets to secure their loan (if that's how they get the cash) with a lien on the aircraft, along with specified penalties if they do lien the aircraft and default on their loan. The money they bring to the table has to be totally unconnected with the airplane. That way, if they default, the bank goes after their truck (or house, or whatever other security they used) rather than the airplane.

EXACTLY!!!
 
Ken Ibold said:
OK, we're in the same ballpark. We're looking at 100/hr wet plus ~250 fixed per person per month (times 4). But we're not actually going to do a wet rate. We'll do $55 dry to the partnership fund and each person buys their own gas. Want to go faster? Pay more. Plus, gas at my base field is still $5.25, but 10 miles away it's $3.50


Despite it being a wet rate, we're all still pretty motivated to find cheap gas. It does, in the end, all come out of our pockets, one way or the other.

Jim G
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tragedy_of_the_Commons
If the rate is "wet" the tendency will be for members to purchase more expensive fuel when it is more convenient to do so. It begins when one member is too busy to go get the cheap fuel. Another member, realizing he is paying for the first member's choice, opts for convenience knowing the original perpetrator will share the extra cost...
- Aunt Peggy
 
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