What are the regs w/ Canadian built experimental a/c...

[BonanzaDriver]

Just curious if, under Canadian flight rules, the Epic Victory http://www.epicaircraft.com/Victory.html can be built by the company and sold to the consumer in the states. I love the victory, but absolutely do not want to build it myself. I guess I could buy it used in 10 years

 

[Ken Ibold]

Just curious if, under Canadian flight rules, the Epic Victory http://www.epicaircraft.com/Victory.html can be built by the company and sold to the consumer in the states. I love the victory, but absolutely do not want to build it myself. I guess I could buy it used in 10 years

Epic will certify a similar design, just as they are turnin the LT into the Dynasty. Be patient.

And then in 10 years buy a used one.

But the answer to your question is, no, Epic cannot build the airplane for you and then sell it to you as an experimental, even under Canadian rules.

 

[BonanzaDriver]

Epic will certify a similar design, just as they are turnin the LT into the Dynasty. Be patient.

And then in 10 years buy a used one.

But the answer to your question is, no, Epic cannot build the airplane for you and then sell it to you as an experimental, even under Canadian rules.

I have always wondered why a company like Epic or Lancair could not "sell" the kit to an independent contracted builder, have him construct the airplane, title it to an LLC, then "sell" it back to lancair to sell as a used experimental.

Looking at the epic site, it appears as if the victory has no plans of certification, only the twin engine "elite", which I imagine will carry a price tag of near 2m$.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I have always wondered why a company like Epic or Lancair could not "sell" the kit to an independent contracted builder, have him construct the airplane, title it to an LLC, then "sell" it back to lancair to sell as a used experimental.

Looking at the epic site, it appears as if the victory has no plans of certification, only the twin engine "elite", which I imagine will carry a price tag of near 2m$.

It does happen that "serial builders" build airframe after airframe and sell them as completed experimentals. The FAA is none too happy about it, either. It's possible the FAA could refuse to issue an airworthiness certificate to the builder, but I'm not sure it's ever happened. This would be an issue between the builder and the FAA, rather than the company and the FAA.

And after talking to Rick Schramek at SNF, I am convinced he has the same plans for Victory as the LT/Dynasty.

 

[Tom-D]

It does happen that "serial builders" build airframe after airframe and sell them as completed experimentals. The FAA is none too happy about it, either. It's possible the FAA could refuse to issue an airworthiness certificate to the builder, but I'm not sure it's ever happened. This would be an issue between the builder and the FAA, rather than the company and the FAA.

And after talking to Rick Schramek at SNF, I am convinced he has the same plans for Victory as the LT/Dynasty.

Anyone can complete an EXP aircraft, and sell it to anyone. It doesn't matter what country the builder or buyer lives.

The only thing that bothers the FAA is who gets the Repairmans certificate. Then you must prove how much you built.

All you must do to gain the repairmans certificate is suypervise the build there is no requirement to touch the aircraft. otherwise when a EXP aircraft is built by a group such as a highschool class the teacher can have the repairmans crtificate without building a thing on the aircraft.

Same with the owner of the kit supervising a professional builder, not a problem with the FAA.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Anyone can complete an EXP aircraft, and sell it to anyone. It doesn't matter what country the builder or buyer lives.

OK, that's true. I was assuming the OP was referring to getting the A/W certificate as experimental/amateur-built. Of course you can get one with a more restricted A/W certificate such as "exhibition," but that's pretty limiting for most people.

 

[Tom-D]

OK, that's true. I was assuming the OP was referring to getting the A/W certificate as experimental/amateur-built. Of course you can get one with a more restricted A/W certificate such as "exhibition," but that's pretty limiting for most people.

Importing a EXP aircraft you still must request a FAA or DAR to inspect the aircraft and issue an airworthiness certificate, after the N number is applied. There is nothing in the FAA rules saying where or who must built the aircraft, or any restriction as to importation of that aircraft.

The paper work is the same as if it were the first time issuance of the type certificate of any EXP aircraft.

 

[BonanzaDriver]

I just received an email from Epic in regards to this whole issue. Here is the response...

I understand you call yourself “not mechanically inclined” and you do not have the time to build an airplane, but there are ways to complete the aircraft. Our sister company offers a Canadian completion program for a supplementary fee of $125,000. Upon completion and positive evaluation by an FAA representative, an Epic test pilot flies the aircraft for 40 test hours.

Interesting. Any thoughts?

 

[Ken Ibold]

I just received an email from Epic in regards to this whole issue. Here is the response...

I understand you call yourself “not mechanically inclined” and you do not have the time to build an airplane, but there are ways to complete the aircraft. Our sister company offers a Canadian completion program for a supplementary fee of $125,000. Upon completion and positive evaluation by an FAA representative, an Epic test pilot flies the aircraft for 40 test hours.

Interesting. Any thoughts?

Yeah, what kind of an airworthiness certificate does it get?

 

[Sticky1]

At that point, it should be a normal exp cert. Only think is that you have to have an annual each year by an IA or AP since you are not the repairman.

 

[Ken Ibold]

At that point, it should be a normal exp cert. Only think is that you have to have an annual each year by an IA or AP since you are not the repairman.

OK, define "normal." Here's the danger, what most people consider "experimental" is actually "experimental amateur built". When you get into clearly professional builds -- like what Zivko did with the Edge 540 -- the FAA will not license them as amateur built, and what you're left with is Experimental - exhibition, which has restrictions as to how the airplane can be used.

There are a lot of pseudo professional builders who are getting away with amateur built status these days, but the FAA has been looking more intently at this issue ESPECIALLY with respect to the Epic (specifically), because of its level of sophistication.

So while you might have an airplane that gets an amateur built A/W certificate, you may also be unlucky and get an exhibition cert. Heckuva gamble with $2 million.

 

[Tom-D]

At that point, it should be a normal exp cert. Only think is that you have to have an annual each year by an IA or AP since you are not the repairman.

The correct term is "conditional inspection" to see if it is still in the condition as certified.

 

[tonycondon]

There are a lot of pseudo professional builders who are getting away with amateur built status these days, but the FAA has been looking more intently at this issue ESPECIALLY with respect to the Epic (specifically), because of its level of sophistication.

today i was talking with one of the companies that was displaying outside hangar D (I think) They had a single engine turboprop and 2 or 3 mockups there. Same business plan as Epic with "home"built aircraft being used to fund certification. I asked him about staying true to the intent of being built for "education and recreation" and we had quite a conversation. He told me that the "builder" spends enough time to qualify for 51% with their plan, mostly on the fuselage and wings. and then the company puts the interior, avionics and engine on. but of course "most homebuilders farm that stuff out anyway" After a little more back and forth he walked away from me and started paying attention to some kids building an airplane model. Sure wish I could remember the name of that company...

 

[N621j]

Same with the owner of the kit supervising a professional builder, not a problem with the FAA.

The only way this is legal is if the professional builder isn't getting paid to do the work. This is the kind of stuff that is going to ruin the experimental category for those of us who really abide by and enjoy the freedom of the current rules. I know it's going on all over the place, but I hear from a DAR that new rules further clarifying the "51% rule" and clamping down on abuses is forthcoming.