What Am I Getting Into?

Andrew said:
Well I just thought I could get my training, hours and education in the ANG. I've flown many times as a passenger but never been in the controls. This career field seems harder than I thought to be successful in. Am I up against too much competition?
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You have a lot of competition, passionate competition willing to pay for a flying job even. They just changed the rules to assure that airline pilot training will not happen properly with the 1500 hr to right seat rule. They should start in the right seat, get one of the DA-20 Falcons with the panel on the right and be right seat 121/135 at 250 with a CPL and a 7500 hr min TT Capt for a year or two then pair him with a junior captain for a year or two then bump them to JR captain status. I think that's 4-7years to make capt. these days at most regionals. 7-10 to get a good bid...if your airline makes it, because your seniority number doesn't transfer from contractor to contractor like most unions, each airline has its own union, way dumb for everyone. One union, one hiring hall.
 
Andrew said:
I just sometimes think, is it all worth in the end? I don't want to give it my all and still come out without a job. I also just want to know what I'm up against and if I can handle it.
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As far as worth goes, a cubicle at 35,000' has a better view than one at ground level. ;).

The answer to that question is deeply personal, and no one can answer it but you. Do you want to look out a cockpit window for a living and be responsible for all the lives on board, which includes checkrides every six months for the rest of your life, medicals on a similar schedule, and many years to get there? That's up to you. No one here has your personal answer. :)

The risk of not having a job after years of education is high in almost all careers these days. Choose schools carefully. None will guarantee you a job, last I checked. They'll make sure you leave believing your "education" was worth whatever you paid them. Their job is to graduate people, not get them jobs.

You (or anyone) can handle anything you have the stamina and determination to handle. Our grandparents and maybe in your case, great-grandparents were able to handle a World War or two. We've got it easy. Only you know how well you react when it's time to dig down and keep going.

We humans mostly convince ourselves that something is too hard, rather than it actually being that hard.

The root of the word business ... is busy. If you know something will get you moving even after four hours of sleep and walking toward the airplane to launch it back into the hub for the five passengers in back, in the dead of winter or the heat of summer, knowing you're at the bottom of the pay scale and totem pole, and yet still expected to fly as professionally and as well as the guy picking his trips and sitting on the #1 seniority spot in the company... then go for it. He did what you're doing to get there, once.
 
have you checked into civil air patrol? good opportunities there with experience and scholarships for the cadets.
 
I second having the degree in a non-aviation related field.

With that said, it's a tough world out there no matter what degree you have. I graduated with two (albeit very vague) degrees and it took me almost eight months to find an actual, so-called "real" job. From there, it took another four to be salaried. It was completely unrelated to what I studied and I didn't utilize anything but the grammar skills from English classes and the organizational skills from my fraternity.

I ended up ditching that job and moving 300 miles away to pursue a job where I actually use a skill from one of my degrees (speaking German). It wasn't until sitting at a cubicle for about a year and a half did I realize that aviation is what I need to do. My friends were tired of hearing me talk about flying all the time and seeing me play the sim, so my girlfriend gave me a good, confidence-boosting nudge to pursue it. Heck, I'm happy that I am at least trying to make a career out of flying rather than turn 50 mumbling "If only I had tried..." over a beer. On the other hand, I know it might eat away at my girlfriend some - but hey, she's still super supportive and that's why I love her. She knows I love flying and is willing to watch me risk it all. In the end, if I just end up CFI-ing on the weekends while working an office job, I'll still be happy. I love flying that much.

It should be noted that I'm just flying on the weekends when I can and am going through a community college (with appropriate funding). Probably not the smartest way, but I know I could support myself financially if poop should hit the fan. Student loans stink, but I've still spent less than someone who went to Embry-Riddle or even just a college around my area.





Also, don't let faceless blokes on the interwebz tell you what to do. It's your life!
 
If you want to fly, fly. However, have a back up career to actually make some money.......so you can afford to fly anyway.
 
Andrew if you are totally commited to being a pilot then go after it. But have a backup in case the pilot thing doesn't work out. You seem interested in the ANG. If you have good grades in high school you can qualify for ROTC and your degree is paid for by which ever service accepts you. Realize though for active duty there is not pilot guarantee when you sign the dotted line. Guard works differently though and they have guaranteed slots for positions. Not sure how competitive those are. As others have said as well the whole process is compettive even in the military. With draw downs they are taking less and less people. A lot of guys in the Air Force have been forced into flying UAVs.

Have you thought about air traffic control? That's one field that's short of people. I did it for 8 yrs and loved it. There are even certain aviation schools out there that you can get a degree in it. They have tower simulators and everything. Also the FAA is big on hiring those people over military people (which I disagree with). For awhile they were only taking internal transfers or people with aviation degrees with a major in ATC.

Finally, since I served in the Army I'll bring up the "high school to flight school" thing. If you're squared away and you get good letters of recommendation you can go fly in the Army as a warrant officer. No college degree requirement and everything is paid for including a GI Bill (if you qualify)that pays for 100 percent of civilian flight training. Sounds great but there are always draw backs. First, once again you would be competing with others who have either college degrees or are enlisted personnel that have already proven themselves. Second, well you have to put up with intensive training (survival school), always moving and being sent to the worst places on earth to get shot at. Also, obviously you'd have to want to fly helicopters. Odds of getting airplanes outta flight school is extremely slim. What you will have when you get done though is 1 million dollars worth of flight training/certificates that will allow you to go out and fly civilian after your 6 yr obligation.

Determination Andrew. As with a lot of pilots we had the door shut on us more than once. I was denied my first time applying for the Army but I didn't give up. I got more college credits,got my PPL, became a non comissioned officer, then reapplied in 5 yrs and got accepted. But as I said, give yourself a backup if your primary goal doesn't go through.
 
Andrew said:
Would joining the ANG be a good idea? I hear they provide education & a part-time job as well. Could I get what is required of me in the military? Pursuing this seems harder than I thought...
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Andrew,
I spent 22 years in the Guard flying F-16's and A-7's and loved every minute of it. You can join as enlisted go into the avionics shop and have them pay for your college. There are big bonuses for doing certain specialties that are hard to fill like weapons load. Get your pilots liscense while there and start applying for pilot slots and eventually you may get one...(we gave preference to people already in the unit).

Good luck,
Brent
 
Andrew,
I have zero experience with this suggestion, but there are some here on PoA that can add information: Have you considered Air Traffic Control? You can also learn to fly while working and it's aviation and technology related.
 
Andrew said:
Well I just thought I could get my training, hours and education in the ANG. I've flown many times as a passenger but never been in the controls. This career field seems harder than I thought to be successful in. Am I up against too much competition?
Click to expand...


Andrew,

I am 63 years old so when I was in High School the draft was VERY MUCH in force. I was not ready for college out of high school, so the draft was breathing down my neck when I was 19. Long story short, I ended up at a Navy Recruiters office who asked me if I wanted to fly. It turned out that I didn't have the eyesight necessary and ended up as a Missile and Radar Repairman in the Army.

In that day and time, had I been able to fly in the military my future might have been much different. I've had a great life, but I often wonder what it would have been like had I been able to learn to fly in the military at that young age.

Today, there are not as many opportunities to fly for a living as there were in the past, but this doesn't mean that you can't build a career around aviation.

The Air National Guard might be the greatest thing that could ever happen to you and it doesn't cost anything to go check it out. I can almost guarantee that if you go talk to them, they will treat you like an adult and tell you what it would take to do this.

You just never know how something like that might turn out. You might end up flying or learning avionics, or learning something else about aviation. In the course of that, the military, even the National Guard can teach you things that will speed your career along just due to your gaining good work habits and carrying lots of responsibility. When I was 21 years old in the Army, I was responsible for millions of dollars worth of radar and fire control equipment. You would rarely if ever carry such responsibility in civilian life. This is career enhancing experience.

When I was your age I didn't have the foresight to check into such things. If it weren't for the draft leading me to a really good electronics school in the Army instead of being drafted, I would probably have never developed a love for electronics. After the Army I went to school and learned MUCH more about electronics that led to a good career.

Andrew, the guys on this site mean well and there are TONS of aviation experience here. Learn from them, but don't EVER let ANYONE pour cold water on your dreams. If you think you would enjoy being around aviation, then check it out, learn about it. Aviation is not the only industry that is suffering and changing. Planes are here to stay. SOMEONE has to fly them, build them and take care of them.

Be positive, be aggressive and keep asking questions.

My Grandfather told me when I was about your age, that if I could find a job that I loved I would never have to work again the rest of my life. it was good advice. Ask questions and don't be happy with one answer from one person. Talk to LOTS of people so that you hear the good AND the bad.

Very best of luck and keep asking those questions!:yesnod:
 
MBDiagMan said:
Andrew,

I am 63 years old so when I was in High School the draft was VERY MUCH in force. I was not ready for college out of high school, so the draft was breathing down my neck when I was 19. Long story short, I ended up at a Navy Recruiters office who asked me if I wanted to fly. It turned out that I didn't have the eyesight necessary and ended up as a Missile and Radar Repairman in the Army.

In that day and time, had I been able to fly in the military my future might have been much different. I've had a great life, but I often wonder what it would have been like had I been able to learn to fly in the military at that young age.

Today, there are not as many opportunities to fly for a living as there were in the past, but this doesn't mean that you can't build a career around aviation.

The Air National Guard might be the greatest thing that could ever happen to you and it doesn't cost anything to go check it out. I can almost guarantee that if you go talk to them, they will treat you like an adult and tell you what it would take to do this.

You just never know how something like that might turn out. You might end up flying or learning avionics, or learning something else about aviation. In the course of that, the military, even the National Guard can teach you things that will speed your career along just due to your gaining good work habits and carrying lots of responsibility. When I was 21 years old in the Army, I was responsible for millions of dollars worth of radar and fire control equipment. You would rarely if ever carry such responsibility in civilian life. This is career enhancing experience.

When I was your age I didn't have the foresight to check into such things. If it weren't for the draft leading me to a really good electronics school in the Army instead of being drafted, I would probably have never developed a love for electronics. After the Army I went to school and learned MUCH more about electronics that led to a good career.

Andrew, the guys on this site mean well and there are TONS of aviation experience here. Learn from them, but don't EVER let ANYONE pour cold water on your dreams. If you think you would enjoy being around aviation, then check it out, learn about it. Aviation is not the only industry that is suffering and changing. Planes are here to stay. SOMEONE has to fly them, build them and take care of them.

Be positive, be aggressive and keep asking questions.

My Grandfather told me when I was about your age, that if I could find a job that I loved I would never have to work again the rest of my life. it was good advice. Ask questions and don't be happy with one answer from one person. Talk to LOTS of people so that you hear the good AND the bad.

Very best of luck and keep asking those questions!:yesnod:
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Andrew, I'm not a pilot - I'm a 44 year old guy who wishes he was. So I've been following this thread as if wishing I could go back in time. I must say that I think this is the best advice I've seen yet.

I was also in the Navy, and was a nuclear power plant operator. I don't have any idea what the nuke plant cost, but I was running the power plant for a submarine that cost something like $93 million dollars in 1967.

Going into the military can definitely be a good way to get the rest of us to pay for your training (and we'd be the ones getting the bargain - you'd be giving us your service), but make sure you research it and go in with your eyes wide open. Don't take the word of just a recruiter. Recruiters aren't known for their honesty, and for good reason sometimes. Talk to others that are in as well. If you want to go ANG, go talk with people who are IN the ANG. Go to air shows and talk with every military member you see. Make sure you know what you're getting into. On the third day of boot camp, you can't change your mind and decide you don't want to stay.

Also - regarding boot camp - I hated it. It stunk. But a few weeks after it was all over, I realized that it was just a mind game that lasted 8 weeks, and transformed me into a sailor. I ran into one of my company commanders at the local mall, and realized he was a human being, and that he did what he did because he cared about each and every one of us, and wanted to see us succeed. I ended up playing the liaison and getting a number of us together with our old CCs a couple times before we were done with Nuke school. Even went back to the RTC (Recruit Training Command - boot camp) side of the base a few times to teach things to one of the CCs' next company. Basically, boot camp stinks - just until you're through it. After that, for the rest of your life, you'll look back at it and realize that it was a very important phase of your training, and it helped you to make that shift from high school kid, to man.

If you think you want to go military, go talk to a recruiter. Then talk to others in the branch you want to go into. Do NOT sign a contract the first time you talk to the recruiter. Or even the third. Maybe not even the fifth. I joined the Delayed Entry Program (DEP) the summer between my Jr and Sr years, and was in DEP 363 days. I ended up winning three scolarships at the end of my Sr year, and my recruiter told me that since (the biggest one) was for an Associate degree and not a Bachelor's, I could not get out of the Navy for it. I didn't find out until about midway through boot camp (too late) that he lied. Keep things like this in mind.

Also, if you think you want to be an officer, and your grades are good, check into ROTC as previously suggested, but also check with your Congressmen about getting a nomination to the military academy of your choice. You can only be considered to these academies if you are nominated - you cannot apply without a nomination. Congressmen, Vice-President, and President can all nominate people (not sure of any others who may).

Above all, don't let ANYONE tell you what you can't do. You CAN do whatever you set your mind to.
 
I know the Army NG used to have a program where you could go to a drill weekend to check it out prior to signing on the dotted line.

The only problem with that was it was never the weekend you spend on the range in the October rain, PT test weekend or prior to an IG inspection. And it was sort of staged.


I had a buddy in HS that went into the Guard, signed up for Hydraulics and Pneumatics, being told he would be working on choppers, got assigned to an aviation maintenance unit and NEVER touched an aircraft for his 6 years of enlistment. ( The full time ARG technicians did all the work) .

The Military has some perks , but it doesn't always mean you are going to do what you signed up to do.
 
Andrew,

The military has a nice retirement program too...you're not going to get rich but after 20 years, 1/2 pay and medical for life ain't bad. Then you can do something else or just fish & golf and stay on bases when visiting places....you can't count on an airline for retirement benefits, I've got too many friends that have seen their airline go bankrupt and their stocks go to sh*t....Go ANG...What kind of planes do the ANG have near you?

Brent
 
Andrew, I bailed also. It had to do with hosing out a cargo deck one 7AM after a late night arrival with a load of sheep who had all taken a dump.

You have got to want is so badly that even being broke, running tramp aircraft across the Carribean to cold, 11,000 MSL ports in Winter, and being covered with sheep s__t, doesn't faze you.

Well, it did me. So I went back to school.

AME
 
bbchien said:
Andrew, I bailed also. It had to do with hosing out a cargo deck one 7AM after a late night arrival with a load of sheep who had all taken a dump.

You have got to want is so badly that even being broke, running tramp aircraft across the Carribean to cold, 11,000 MSL ports in Winter, and being covered with sheep s__t, doesn't faze you.

Well, it did me. So I went back to school.

AME
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Yeah, but who took them so high that they did that? LOL

(Yeah, you had justifiable reasons, I know! :))
 
bbchien said:
Andrew, I bailed also. It had to do with hosing out a cargo deck one 7AM after a late night arrival with a load of sheep who had all taken a dump.

You have got to want is so badly that even being broke, running tramp aircraft across the Carribean to cold, 11,000 MSL ports in Winter, and being covered with sheep s__t, doesn't faze you.

Well, it did me. So I went back to school.

AME
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ROFL!

And here I thought throwing half-melted boxes of slimy frozen fish around the bays of the nightly 727 from the West coast to Stapleton for Continental was bad!

Your story trumps that one in a baaaaaad way, Doc. ;)
 
Andrew, have you considered any career paths with a higher demand, say, animal husbandry? Just kidding.

I am a working pilot and I love what I do for a living. Been at it since my first flying job in 1981. I fly airplanes with 150,000hp that cost 80 million each, all packed to the rafters with people who don't understand why caviar isn't served on their $139 flight from NYC-LAX. I commute 1800mi each way to work. The corporation I work for is in chapter 11 bankruptcy, for the ostensible reason of cutting labor costs. The pilots at my airline presently work for less than they made in 1993.

The gentleman who encouraged you to follow your own heart gave you sage advise. But, at the risk of throwing cold water...unless you have an absolute hormonal imbalance - caused by all things aeronautical, if you can't not look skyward with every passing airplane, I would encourage you to do something more sensible, like buy a wooden sailboat.
 
There you go and have to throw sensible into it...... Now that changes things. He should drill a hole in that wooden sailboat.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
have you considered Active Duty Navy or Air Force? I echo the wise advise to talk to folks in the branch of choice who are doing what you want to do. I do not advise enlisting with the thought of being accepted into an officer program and flight program. (the Army does have helo pilots as Warrants). You don't need a private pilots as a prereq to fly in the military. You do need to enter through an ROTC program or Academy. The Navy does not take pilots from other avenues other than the few slots allotted for enlisted Sailors.

Neither ROTC nor the Academy guarantees you the option of flying either. You need to excel to get your choice and even then that doesn't mean you get fighters. I would think odds of flying are higher in Air Force but both the Navy and Air Force are in downsizing mode. For what it's worth, an 0-1, less than 2, is going to make close to $50,000 starting salary counting $1,000/month housing allowance (based on Pensacola).

Just an option to consider.
 
Aviation will eat you up and spit you out if your not in it 110%. It is pricey to learn how to fly and then even more pricey to reach that 1500 hour mark that will get you into a regional airline. Co-pilots in the regional airlines dont make great money either. The stereotype of the 6-figure-a-year-airline-captain is disappearing because only guys who have been flying in the airlines for years or decades and have 10's of thousands of hours make that much money.

BUT if you love it you'll do whatever it takes to make it a reality.
 
From personal experience, and i think most professional pilots would agree. It all about how you present yourself, who you know and how you can get your foot in the door. Ive seen pilots that go from a Cirrus to a Lear in 3 months and ive seen pilots trying to get into a turbine for 3 years And still flying a Saratoga. Its alot of luck also. Be at the right place at the right time. Good luck!
 
Forgot to add that for the majors and nice corporate jobs, its all about that turbine multi time, which can be hard to get.
 
Henning said:
One union, one hiring hall.
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How bout no union, screw seniority and hire into positions based on combined experience, aptitude and attitude?

If the airlines were like that, i'd be interested. Fortunately there are some jobs in alternate aviation career paths that hire based on those attributes but its unfortunate that the airlines are all unionized and based on seniority
 
I completely agree, unions manage to mess everything up and they even make airlines go bankrupt. Classic example AA and recently Mexicana. Thats why I'm not interested in an airline job in the US. Plus how can a pilot accept a 21k before taxes, flying a jet. Thats why pay isn't what it used to be in the airlines. If pilots would stop accepting pennies for a job, salaries would eventually go up, airlines would have no option but to offer a competitive salary where we could live in a little comfort. A trash collector makes more money in the US than a airline new hire. Thats pretty sad considering you paid 50k for a pilot career and bachelors degree, just so you can maybe get hired.
 
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