WGA, Windows, and you

mikea

mikea

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iWin
You might want to turn off Autoupdates in Windows XP.

Now with Windows Update, Microsoft is sending out WGA, Windows Genuine Advantage which sends you a collection of programs to harrass you if it thiks your licenses is not legit. It delays the Windows startup and pops a banner repeatedly to tell you to click to go to Microsoft and drop $149 to stop the messages.

It also will not allow you to check for Windows updates.

My laptop which I bought used came with XP pre-installed and evidently the seller used a much stolen license.

I've heard that some people with legit and OEM copies of Windows are getting the message in error.

I got sick of the messages. I did some quick googlng and went in and deleted all the WGA stuff. The result is at the next boot I get a message that ntkernal.exe is missing. Nice, move, Microsoft. I imagine the message is bogus or the WGA stuff actually deletes the kernal.

Since victims are prevented from getting updates, the world is wide open for a future Windows exploit that they can't get the fix for. That could make everybody suffer.

In my case, I'm able to recover with enough hours of my time which I don't got. BTW, I found a way around the WGA check, which I got working on a copy of XP I installed in the VM on the Mac.

I have to check the license on my other copy of XP to see if I'm allowed to reinstall it. The depressing thought to me is if I wanted use it both in Virtual Machine and native on my Mac I would have to buy two copies when I wouldn't use either except in rare circumstances.

I gotta figure that Microsoft is p-ing off a few million people with this. A prediction from me: Look for the story to go mainstream in places like the Wall Street Journal and Time.

It occurred to me that Office is actually MS's cash cow Users can't run Office if Windows stops working. Owell. Maybe some mere civilians will discover Macs and Open Source.
 
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MIke,

It looks like it "phones home" with every boot. I wonder what other information is being sent back to M$.
 
wsuffa said:
MIke,

It looks like it "phones home" with every boot. I wonder what other information is being sent back to M$.
Click to expand...

Nah. It does the WGA check as a condition of proceeding with your Windows Update request. If you don't check out as legit then the WGA* stuff gets installed* and goes into harrassment mode from that point forward.

The good news is they must have a way to retro apply a legit license. I have to look into that. Otherwise even if you bought a $400 full copy you'd lose your stuff when you installed it. It may be that they have a "get genuine" license that is the only one that works. There are MANY different kinds of XP licenses.

* It may be that EVERY Windows user gets the WGA stuff and it runs, even for those that check out.
 
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Wiki's version of what happens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage

Personally, I don't see what the issue is. In your case, you didn't buy from a legitimate seller, Mike. It's hardly your fault and you should be able to go back to the seller and complain. Or route your complaint to Microsoft.

I've been on the selling end of the Microsoft Office 97 Professional OEM scam. Turns out there was NO OEM version of 97 Pro. Everything MY distributor had been selling me had been illegitimate. It had been so widespread, Microsoft was actually doing PR campaigns to tell resellers that the version wasn't legit.

I'm curious how Apple handles illegitimate OS copies out there. Of course, they control the hardware, too, as it's not strictly apples to apples. (Pun intended) ;)
 
My problem is that Yes, I do have a pirated version of Windows XP. I didn't have the cash to buy it when it came time to upgrade the OS (from Windows ME... bleh.) so I used the corp version. Each time they've tried to cut me off, I've managed to get around it. Anyway, I now have a valid product key through the school's NetAcademy partnership, but apparently must use the ISO that I can download off their site in order for the key to work. So now I have 200GB of data that I will lose if I try to reinstall windows, and have no CLUE how this "special version" of XP will work if I try to install it over my current installation.

EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently in order to get around the Service Pack 1 and 2 mess, the MS Activation program was edited in the process and now won't accept any key other than the VLK I used at the time I ran the "crack". Guess I'll just have to backup all this data at some point. Oh well.
 
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When Windows first came out, there was a problem where legit keys were being compromised by people trying to brute force a key.

I wonder how many people are being screwed by M$ who actually have a legit copy becase of this.

And for what its worth, there are a few companies that I have vowed to never buy from. Sony is one because of that scummy rootkit they were installing, Microsoft is the other because...well, I can't even remember why anymore. Something that happened about 9 years ago. So I'll admit, the first legit copy of windows I will be buying will be Windows Vista. The last one was Windows 98, and thats only because it came on my computer when I bought it.
 
wbarnhill said:
EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently in order to get around the Service Pack 1 and 2 mess, the MS Activation program was edited in the process and now won't accept any key other than the VLK I used at the time I ran the "crack". Guess I'll just have to backup all this data at some point. Oh well.
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There are two different XP installation CDs: one for single license use and one for Volume License use. To use a VL key, you must have the VL version. Doesn't matter where it came from because the key determines the licensing. The CD will specifically say on it: "Volume License Code Required" or some such. If it doesn't say that, it's the single license version.

Other than the key, there is no difference in functionality.
 
Brian Austin said:
Wiki's version of what happens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage

Personally, I don't see what the issue is. In your case, you didn't buy from a legitimate seller, Mike. It's hardly your fault and you should be able to go back to the seller and complain. Or route your complaint to Microsoft.

I've been on the selling end of the Microsoft Office 97 Professional OEM scam. Turns out there was NO OEM version of 97 Pro. Everything MY distributor had been selling me had been illegitimate. It had been so widespread, Microsoft was actually doing PR campaigns to tell resellers that the version wasn't legit.

I'm curious how Apple handles illegitimate OS copies out there. Of course, they control the hardware, too, as it's not strictly apples to apples. (Pun intended) ;)
Click to expand...

Actaully we just talked about that. On one hand Mac owners have no qualms about forking over $129 every year for the new version of OS X. On the other hand Apple has no activation or DRM in OS X whatsoever. The DVD will install anywhere. They sell family licenses for a decent price and people buy those. I guess the honor system works.

The only OS X issue that Apple is chasing is with those that managed to get the Intel version to install on non-Apple hardware. There's a string in the binary that says "Dont Steal OS X."

The issue here is Microsoft is forcing users to install a license enforcement tool that in my case made Windows unusable when I tried to remove it. That may be fully allowable in the EULA - as if illegit users agreed to anything - but it's pretty scummy. Where is the line between a criminal virus author disabling your computer and Microsoft doing it with their own "virus?"
 
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mikea said:
I guess the honor system works.
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But you don't really know that, do you? Are there any statistics that show 100% (or even 90%) of users are installing legitimate software? With no activation, how is Apple supposed to really know those numbers? They can't. My opinion is that they don't have the market penetration to really care at the moment.

mikea said:
The issue here is Microsoft is forcing users to install a license enforcement tool that in my case made Windows unusable when I tried to remove it. That may be fully allowable in the EULA - as if illegit users agreed to anything - but it's pretty scummy. Where is the line between a criminal virus author disabling your computer and Microsoft doing it with their own "virus?"
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First, your situation is a little different if everything you're saying is true. Your beef isn't with Microsoft, it's with your laptop vendor. It's hardly Microsoft's fault that you have pirated software installed.

Second, you don't get WGA without doing updates. Updates cost money for the software vendor. Microsoft has gotten MUCH better about releasing updates in a timely manner and testing them before they are released. That stuff costs MONEY. We don't get it for free because it's part of the deal we made with Microsoft when we bought the software.

You constantly have a beef with companies making money off of their software or continued support. I simply don't get it. What if you walked in to your employer tomorrow and they said, "Sorry, Mike, but since the customer didn't pay us for your time last week, you're not getting paid for two days." Hardly fair, don't you think? Or if you wrote a software package yourself, decided to sell it, and found that almost HALF your installations weren't legitimate copies? Sure, you made money...but someone just stole from you. No different than if someone walked into your house and cleaned out half the money in your safe. They just circumvented the process. Now add in the fact that, since your software package is so successful, you have to provide updates to keep it feature rich and bug free so you hire some programmers to help...but half of the downloads are going to people who never paid for it in the first place. How can you continue affording to pay these people, plus the office, the utilities, the network infrastructure, etc.?

The ironic thing is that your beloved Apple has iTunes and the iPod hardware locked down so tight that it cranks the cost of accessories up due to licensing costs. Moving music from one player to another is possible but often requires a third party package to do the translations (or extensive file transferring and reconfiguring). Even their Mac hardware is strictly Apple only, with strict licensing on any third party accessories. Where is your outrage here?

I love my iPod and gladly paid the price for one, along with iTunes (free but I keep buying more music). I understand it's proprietary and I'm okay with that. Just like I understand that Microsoft has made a significant investment of time, money and effort into their applications and operating systems and they want to protect that.

Put yourself in their shoes. How would YOU have done it?
 
The ruggedized tablet PC I use in the plane gave an odd message when WGA initially ran: "The PC vendor for this computer is not listed in the database, so we cannot determine the authenticity..." Yet the computer has a genuine, Microsoft, holographic CoA stuck to the bottom of it. The serial number was valid.

Upon running WGA a second time, after getting that same message on startup, I got a similar message that ended "since the serial number appears valid, your software appears valid and WGA will be authorized".

Yeah, the vendor is legit - they sell a bunch of these computers to institutional entities, like Police, Fire, military, GIS companies, etc.

A legit license should be a legit license. And if I replace my computer (making the old one into a BSD box or something), I should be able to easily transfer the license to the new box. Not only for the OS, but also for the software. No longer is it as simple as swapping the hard drive into a new box.
 
wsuffa said:
A legit license should be a legit license. And if I replace my computer (making the old one into a BSD box or something), I should be able to easily transfer the license to the new box. Not only for the OS, but also for the software. No longer is it as simple as swapping the hard drive into a new box.
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I'm not a big fan of OEM licensing and don't agree with Microsoft's approach on this. I agree that, once purchased (whatever the avenue), the license should be yours to do with as you please, provided it doesn't violate the license agreement (ie multiple copies, etc.). Microsoft's take on this is that you get it for a significant discount when purchasing a computer and the OEM license STAYS with the computer, regardless of what you do with it later (or even if it dies). I'm not sure what their reasoning is for this other than additional revenue. I still have a copy of WinXP Pro purchased as a standalone with a laptop (company wasn't authorized to sell OEM) that I've moved to different computers over the years. The only bad thing about it is that if I move it more than twice a year, I have to call in to get it activated...and even that isn't that bad of a process, all things considered.
 
Brian Austin said:
There are two different XP installation CDs: one for single license use and one for Volume License use. To use a VL key, you must have the VL version. Doesn't matter where it came from because the key determines the licensing. The CD will specifically say on it: "Volume License Code Required" or some such. If it doesn't say that, it's the single license version.

Other than the key, there is no difference in functionality.
Click to expand...

Tried the VLK from my work laptop, just to see, and still no joy. So I'll just have to reinstall at some point :D
 
Even the Microsoft apologists are calling WGA "the stupid button." Ed Bott thinks they're planning to shut down Windows installs that don't pass the WGA check come Fall. :hairraise:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84

That'll do it.

I think the latest version fo the EULA - at least the Windows Media Player EULA - says they have the right to disable the software and delete media files.
 
I think the latest version fo the EULA - at least the Windows Media Player EULA - says they have the right to disable the software and delete media files.
Click to expand...
Thats to prevent Intellectual Property theft. For example, if you have a napster subscription and let it expire, you no longer have a licence to listen to the music you downloaded but didn't buy, so the software can remove it.

But WGA does sound kinda stupid...and I think I'm learning about it too late...otoh, my software is all legit, so...
 
Greebo said:
Thats to prevent Intellectual Property theft. For example, if you have a napster subscription and let it expire, you no longer have a licence to listen to the music you downloaded but didn't buy, so the software can remove it.

But WGA does sound kinda stupid...and I think I'm learning about it too late...otoh, my software is all legit, so...
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Read the "Stupid button" post. A lot of people who sent in their PC or laptop for service are getting told the installs aren't legit. PC support never involves changing hardware or reinstalling Windows, right?

They might squeeze by because corporate key licenses are not affected.

If come September a lot of people march into Best Buy to get working computers, in spite of what BB wants, they'll see Macs. Some of them aren't going to be too happy with buying Windows again.
 
mikea said:
If come September a lot of people march into Best Buy to get working computers, in spite of what BB wants, they'll see Macs.
Click to expand...

Is Best Buy selling Macs now? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Is Best Buy selling Macs now? :dunno:
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Well, Best Buy is thinking about selling Macs. They're seeing how much the iPod glow will transfer over to Macs. Whether Best Buy want to sell them is another mattter. Apple is talking about staffing the counters at the stores with Apple employees.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/06/21/best.buy.considers.macs

There may be some concern on how fairly BB will advise customers. The word is that Best Buy is pushing BluRay HD DVD players because the margins are better. They have told employees not to connect the Toshiba HD DVD players so customers can't compare them. One helpful blue shirt said the Tosh's aren't compatible with LCDs. They don't even talk about the Tosh's when they don't have any BluRays in stock to sell.

I noticed the Apple section at CompUSA is a lonely place...until you tell them you're buying an iPod at whioh they fight over ganging up on you to sell you the extended warranty.

I can't go to those joints anymore. It depresses the heck outta me. I want to grab the poor, innocent people wandering around and scream at them to put both hands on their wallets and run while they can. My god, some of them have shopping carts filled with the crap they were told to buy. The humanity!
 
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mikea said:
Even the Microsoft apologists are calling WGA "the stupid button." Ed Bott thinks they're planning to shut down Windows installs that don't pass the WGA check come Fall. :hairraise:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84

That'll do it.

I think the latest version fo the EULA - at least the Windows Media Player EULA - says they have the right to disable the software and delete media files.
Click to expand...

"Self-help" was permitted in a handful of states after being pushed by the software lobby. In a number of others, it is illegal.

This is one case where I am supportive of having tort lawyers - if Microsoft disables software erroneously, they should be held accountable. Laws cannot keep up.
 
WGA was definitely a "kill switch" on my laptop but that was because, being a curmudgeon, I attempted to yank it out by its roots. I can recover.

A really great article on dumping Windows Update and avoiding WGA from another Windows guru, Brian Livingston: http://windowssecrets.com/comp/060629/ As he says Microsoft posted an "easy" 12 step process to removing WGA. His suggested an alternative to Windows Update, Shavlik's NetChkPro is $125 for 5 copies. We should share a purchase.

BTW. I just bought a copy of Windows XP Home Edition to install in the Parallels VM. I checked the feature comparison and decided I didn't need XP Pro.
 
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wsuffa said:
Someone has just filed a class-action lawsuit against MS over WGA.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9001540&source=NLT_PM&nlid=8

There won't be any money in it for the users, I don't guess, but I'm sure the law firms will get something out of the deal.
Click to expand...


By the time it goes through the courts, WGA will be old news anyway.

Haven't had a single problem with it myself, on any of my six machines at home, or any of the couple thousand at work..
 
SJP said:
By the time it goes through the courts, WGA will be old news anyway.

Haven't had a single problem with it myself, on any of my six machines at home, or any of the couple thousand at work..
Click to expand...

After installing it on one system, I started getting BSODs that never existed before.
 
This doesn't happen to legit users.....:rolleyes:

SO, HERE I AM, sitting in a jet at 34,000 feet someplace above God-only-knows-where, using my computer and minding my own business when Microsoft threatens to essentially shut down my copy of Office. And at the very start of a week-long business trip, too.

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-6033_16-4206106.html
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The writer is another Microsoft products guru.
 
I will do my best to never install WGA on my systems and do whatever I must to get around whatever MS trys to do.

Screw them and their "anti-piracy" efforts (and that is said with a BIG dollop of sarcasm, this is NOT about major anti-piracy, but just another way to boost sales).
 
tdager said:
I will do my best to never install WGA on my systems and do whatever I must to get around whatever MS trys to do.

Screw them and their "anti-piracy" efforts (and that is said with a BIG dollop of sarcasm, this is NOT about major anti-piracy, but just another way to boost sales).
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Yeah and as the geek community and some pundits are saying this is a move specifically to harass ma and pa consumers. The professional pirates will always find a way to get around it. MS hopes that enough mere mortals will head off to Office Depot to buy a full version of XP home at $299 to make it worthwhile.

A lot of small business people may start looking at alternatives like Macs and Linux just because this made 'em mad.
 
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mikea said:
Yeah and as the geek community and some pundits are saying this is a move specifically to harass ma and pa consumers. The profesional pirates will laways find a way to get around it. MS hopes that enough mere mortals will head off to Office Depot to buy a full version of XP home at $299 to make it worthwhile.

A lot of small business people may start looking at alternatives like Macs and Linux just because this made 'em mad.
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Seriously, all I've been doing is telling Windows to not download it and not notify me again. Have had to do that twice now in a span of about a month. Not a big deal to me.
 
mikea said:
MS hopes that enough mere mortals will head off to Office Depot to buy a full version of XP home at $299 to make it worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Until they see the ad and find that Office Depot has falsly advertised a "sale" or "rebate" and will have exactly zero copies in stock until the sale is over.

Office Depot is currently on my "avoid" list. I'll reserve further comment about their practices.
 
wbarnhill said:
Seriously, all I've been doing is telling Windows to not download it and not notify me again. Have had to do that twice now in a span of about a month. Not a big deal to me.
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What part of "don't notify me again" does Windoze not understand? :dunno: I guess M$ knows better than their users... :rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What part of "don't notify me again" does Windoze not understand? :dunno: I guess M$ knows better than their users... :rolleyes:
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Point taken, but at least I don't have to deal with it every day :) I'll end up reformatting soon enough, just gotta get around to backing up all ze data.
 
Brian Austin said:
There are two different XP installation CDs: one for single license use and one for Volume License use. To use a VL key, you must have the VL version. Doesn't matter where it came from because the key determines the licensing. The CD will specifically say on it: "Volume License Code Required" or some such. If it doesn't say that, it's the single license version.

Other than the key, there is no difference in functionality.
Click to expand...

Actually there are more than two. There are the retail full version and upgrade version CDs then there are the OEM versions, I believe there are two different types of OEM CDs one being a generic that is sold by small system builders when you buy either a complete PC or some qualifying components to biuild your own. The there are the OEM CDs provided with a PC from one of the larger manufacturers such as IBM, those are specific to the maunfacturer and key into some pice of proprietary hardware and do not require entering a c product key when reinstalling. Then there are the Open (Volume) License version often refered to as Corporate. I'm not sure about Windows XP but I know that 2000 had different CDs for different licensing levels, the CDs provided for open business licenses required a product key and the CDs that went to companies uner the select agreement did not require any key at all.

But one thing stands out and that the only constant in Microsoft's licensing rules is change. Constant change! In some cases even their own people don't have the correct answer.

I've heard that the most recent version of WGA phones home on a daily basis. I haven't confirmed this yet but I'll start looking at my firewall logs for this behavior.

Jeannie
 
Maverick said:
I've heard that the most recent version of WGA phones home on a daily basis. I haven't confirmed this yet but I'll start looking at my firewall logs for this behavior.

Jeannie
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It does.....
 
Maverick said:
Then there are the Open (Volume) License version often refered to as Corporate. I'm not sure about Windows XP but I know that 2000 had different CDs for different licensing levels, the CDs provided for open business licenses required a product key and the CDs that went to companies uner the select agreement did not require any key at all.
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Yeah, I have a few of those but mainly for server level stuff (Exchange, SQL, etc.)

Maverick said:
But one thing stands out and that the only constant in Microsoft's licensing rules is change. Constant change! In some cases even their own people don't have the correct answer.
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Ugh. No kidding. I don't even bother trying to figure it out anymore. I call my software licensing rep and tell her what I've got and what I need. And I get it in writing that I'm compliant. ;)

Maverick said:
I've heard that the most recent version of WGA phones home on a daily basis. I haven't confirmed this yet but I'll start looking at my firewall logs for this behavior.

Jeannie
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Is it different than the regular "check for updates"? Interesting. I've seen our workstations "phone home" to MS from the firewall logs but wrote it off to the update check (which I have staggered through the night until I get my Patch system installed). Might have to capture some packets and find out what is actually being transmitted.
 
Brian Austin said:
Yeah, I have a few of those but mainly for server level stuff (Exchange, SQL, etc.)


Ugh. No kidding. I don't even bother trying to figure it out anymore. I call my software licensing rep and tell her what I've got and what I need. And I get it in writing that I'm compliant. ;)


Is it different than the regular "check for updates"? Interesting. I've seen our workstations "phone home" to MS from the firewall logs but wrote it off to the update check (which I have staggered through the night until I get my Patch system installed). Might have to capture some packets and find out what is actually being transmitted.
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WGA apparently checks once a day with Microsoft on whether to still allow the license or not. Actually nobody knows what it's doing and why or what the plan for the future was. MS has given some conflicting hints, one is which was that something was going to be required come fall. Whether you had to be judged clean by WGA for XP to even work is what is suspected.

Now you can officially uninstall WGA.

Hey, according to Ed Bott Microsoft's PR firm says that only 20% of the licenses WGA flagged as bad were false alarms. http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=89
 
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mikea said:
WGA apparently checks once a day with Microsoft on whether to still allow the license or not. Actually nobody knows what it's doing and why or what the plan for the future was. MS has given some conflicting hints, one is which was that something was going to be required come fall. Whether you had to be judged clean by WGA for XP to even work is what is suspected.
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Wonder what happens if I just block it for a while...
 
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