Weird thought on 360 deg. turns

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by LongRoadBob, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    This thread is making my head spin.... This is a joke right?
     
  2. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    this is one of those that drifts and takes on a life of its own... could go on for days... take some Dramamine, if you plan on staying...
     
  3. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Agree, my brain hurts.
    It’s not that complicated.
     
  4. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    The wake will be less noticeable if you are flying on-step.

    That should help with the thread drift and everyone’s dizziness. :)
     
  5. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    is that some kind of new street drug?
     
  6. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    No. It's an old enough OWT that it is suggested as true in the Bellanca Cruisemaster POH.
     
  7. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Where did I even hint that I thought you said any such thing?? You'll naturally want to glance at it as you approach what you know already from looking out the window is the end of your turn, but even with just a landmark in the distance you should be within a few degrees.
     
  8. Hippike

    Hippike Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It took me a long time to figure out what your problem is, but I think I got it: ;)

    I think your problem is that you incorrectly assume that the circle starts when you turned to the right (when your right shoulder is facing the fridge).
    Wrong! Your circle starts when you are facing the fridge! That's your starting point. Your circle (360) is complete when you face the fridge again.

    In your flying example, if the nose is pointing to 180° and you want to make a turn to the left, you are right, you need to turn the plane's nose toward 90° but you think (mistakenly) that you will complete a full 360°circle when the nose reaches the 90° again. Nope!

    The beginning of your 360° circle starts at where the nose points to 180°.
    Look at your analog watch. You're facing 6 o'clock. Start the turn to the left (facing 5, 4 and 3 o'clock). When you reach 3 o'clock, you completed 1/4 of the circle and the nose is starting to point toward the north (or 12 o'clock) as you pass by 3 o'clock.
    Continue the travel and when you pass by 12 o'clock (or the letter N on your DG), you are already starting turning towards 9 o'clock. When you pass 12 o'clock, you are halfway thru. When you pass by 9 o'clock you are 3/4 of the way.
    You will have completed the full circle when the DG reaches 180° again, but you need to start to come out of the turn before that, because if you wait for the DG to hit 180° and you try to level off then, you overshoot.
    You level out of the turn in such a way that when you are straight and level, the DG shows 180° again. Even though the nose of the plane traveled a slightly different track, as shown on the attached image, if you tracked your progress on a GPS app, you would see a full circle drawn on the map.

    I hope this makes sense:p
     

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  9. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    There are 360 degrees in a circle, and in a compass rose. If you roll into a turn on a heading of 180 and roll out on a heading of 180 you have turned 360 degrees. Where is this 3/4 turn and 15 degree business coming from?
     
  10. DanWilkins

    DanWilkins Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you ain't feeling the wake now and then on a calm day, some work needs to be done. If you have a fine flying airplane just set the turn and it'll find the wake. And then there is the wake one feels when doing a nice loop...
     
  11. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude

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    I have never felt a bump in a 360 when doing a standard rate turn.
    With a steep turn, I have felt it many times.

    The OP never said step turn, and he is a new student pilot. As such they should be working on the basics of a standard rate turn first.

    Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
     
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    :skeptical: :rolleyes2: I'm feeling the wake now...so I'm

    IMG_4123.JPG
     
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  13. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    FTFY
     
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  14. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

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    I think this is more philosophical. If you turn around 360 degrees or did the universe turn around you.??
     
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  15. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

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    Saw that guy on Tosh show. Hilarious.
     
  16. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think someone is overthinking this. Look at something on the horizon at your 12 o'clock. Look at the compass or DG. Turn left (or right) until both things are about to end up in the same position as when you started, roll out. And you might want to push and pull on the throttle and rudder pedals to make your instructor think you know what you are doing.
     
  17. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is where you're getting confused I think. The start of your turn is from 180 to 179. After that, you're 'in the turn.' You should be able to go from wings level to an established standard rate turn in way less than 90 degrees of travel. But even if your're not yet at banking enough to produce a standard rate, if the nose is changing heading, you're still 'in the turn.'
     
  18. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    deleteme4.jpg
     
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  19. DanWilkins

    DanWilkins Pre-takeoff checklist

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    We would hope that in a student's first 5ish hours of flight he would be doing some time in calm air and the instructor would show him the wake.
     
  20. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pre-takeoff checklist

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    is this what you mean?

    360.jpg
     
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  21. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    About that. If wake descends 500 ft per min, how come you come back to the same alt and starting point and hit tour own wake? Seriously, I have never understood this during training or now....
     
  22. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    Would that be at wings level?

    At a 45 degree bank would the wake of the upper wing go more outward (horizontal to the ground) and thus downward at a slower rate?
     
  23. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Possible, I honestly could never figure out the correlation or how it actually works while doing a 360
     
  24. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    I'm pretty sure the OP is making a 90 left turn away from the mast, and then beginning the 360 turn at that point ....
    Most of the post makes sense with that in mind.
     
  25. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    Me either... I'm asking hoping to get an answer (or twelve)
    It has to either get there or stay there somehow, or we would never hit it when we fly a good 360.
     
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  26. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    The wake turbulence descends relative to the wing, not the earth. So in a steep banked turn, the wake turbulence will remain pretty close to the same altitude.
     
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  27. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What bank angle are we talking here.

    lol

    π r2
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  28. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

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    @LongRoadBob we still love you! You should be waking up soon back in Norway to a flurry of posts confirming you have indeed went crazy...probably from too many 360's (shhhh....that were actually 360's) :)

    And if you don't hit your wake, maybe it's because you are so far north compared to us....yeah...that would explain that!
     
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  29. JonH

    JonH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My airplane is so fast I can do a 360 at 10 degrees bank angle and feel my wake turbulence every 30 seconds.
     
  30. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    If you are half way around the circle at the point where you've completed a quarter of the turn it's because you are flying an eight quarter circle. Try flying regular four quarter circles and you will have no problems.
     
  31. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    360_turn.jpg
    Thanks...this was what I was thinking of...

    I drew this from thinking about heading 000 North, instead of my original post.
     
  32. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Line Up and Wait

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    In that example, your starting point should be the airplane on the far right, not the airplane at the top. Top right quadrant would be 1/4, top left would be 2/4, etc. You can't have two airplanes facing the same direction in different quadrants. that is why you are confused. Your top airplane should be facing left with how you drew this.
     
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  33. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks!! That explains it.

    Sorry, guys. Pretty dumb of me. Still glad I embarrassed myself here, rather than ask my instructor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  34. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    When the thread title is "Weird thoughts on..." I think one loses the right to complain if it is....weird thoughts, and they still decide to go in. :)

    Or dumb thoughts...as in this case. But you can see where I went wrong, and as a student it was my inexperience. Thought a 360 began at the top of the "circle" and this explains all the misunderstandings. I wasn't being totally illogical, I think it is an understandable mistake in thinking for a student.

    I also was pretty sure the whole way I was wrong. Just couldn't figure out where.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  35. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    I enjoy this kind of post. I tried every way I could to guess what you were seeing. Then after seeing your drawing, I was confused. Funny.
     
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  36. Matt C

    Matt C Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi Bob. I just had a flight with a friend who's PTT was stuck the entire time we were out but we could hear other traffic and so didn't realize anything was wrong. He teases me about why my wife never joins us. On the way back, the entire listening area (including the jump school) got to hear about 14 years of my marriage. You shouldn't feel too embarrassed....

    Best luck with your geometry study ;)
     
  37. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Glad you figured it out Bob. A little advice for you though, don't ever be embarrassed to ask your instructor a question like this, ever. You are paying good money to learn and no matter how dumb you think a question is, ask, that's why he/she is there. I do it all the time, once in a while I think, damn, I should know this, but then ask anyway. I've resolved, especially now, in the middle of working on my IR listening to some pilots on the radio struggling in IMC, that if I have a question, or I find myself struggling with some phase of flight, I will seek out the help of an instructor, no matter how dumb I think the issue might be, until I find the answer. Every pilot should be this way IMHO.
     
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  38. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Move the pyramid/landmark 5 ticks to the right to correspond with the "N" and it will all work.
     
  39. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Great advice here Bob. I tell my students there are no dumb questions. I've been where you've been and know students sometimes are hesitant to ask, so I question them or have them explain something to me. I may not be able to answer all questions but I tell them I will get you an answer. And I do.

    Now go practice some 360s! :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  40. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Only 80 posts to explain turning 360 degrees. Way to go POA. What if I pull back on the stick? Won't I end up on the same heading I start out at after flying a complete circle? If I start out on a heading of North, I'll see south have way through the maneuver. I'm so confused....