Weird Annual Billing

Mooney Fan

Mooney Fan

Cleared for Takeoff
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Joined
Sep 17, 2017
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1,184
Location
Indian Mound, TN
Display Name
Mooney Fan
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KHVC
My fault. Didn't ask enough questions. Called a shop to take my C-140 for its 2nd annual under my ownership. I ask the cost for annual inspection and he said X. At other shops its always X+ parts. Sounds good

So I get the invoice and X+parts had more. X+parts+ labor for AD inspections?

I said whhaaaaat?. I have 6 recurring AD's.

Anyone experience shops that break it down this way? Wouldn't have changed my mind but would have been nice to know, but I didn't ask.

Lesson learned. Not every shop includes the labor to conduct AD inspections
 
Mooney Fan said:
My fault. Didn't ask enough questions. Called a shop to take my C-140 for its 2nd annual under my ownership. I ask the cost for annual inspection and he said X. At other shops its always X+ parts. Sounds good

So I get the invoice and X+parts had more. X+parts+ labor for AD inspections?

I said whhaaaaat?. I have 6 recurring AD's.

Anyone experience shops that break it down this way? Wouldn't have changed my mind but would have been nice to know, but I didn't ask.

Lesson learned. Not every shop includes the labor to conduct AD inspections
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So if you have an AD that requires a full gear teardown and inspection every 1000 hours, or a prop AD every 500 hours that's extensive, or any other AD requiring 5,10,15 hours of work that isn't just looking at the logbooks to see if it's been complied with in the past you expect that to be included in the price of the annual whether it's due at the time or not?
 
EdFred said:
So if you have an AD that requires a full gear teardown and inspection every 1000 hours, or a prop AD every 500 hours that's extensive, or anything else that isn't just looking at the logbooks to see if it's been complied with in the past you expect that to be included in the price of the annual whether it's due at the time or not?
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My expectations are built off past experiences. Never have been charged additional for AD inspections on previous planes. I'm just curious if its more common than not. I get it though.
 
I'm not surprised that a shop might have a separate charge for some extensive recurring AD.

But, I would expect the shop to review your logs at the start of the annual and call you up and say, "Mr. Mooney Fan? Just so you're aware, you've reached NNNN hours and AD number ZZZZ is due. That requires a complete teardown of your gonkulator and since we didn't know about it prior to reviewing your logs, it wasn't included in our original estimate. How would you like to proceed?"

More importantly, you might want to review your own ADs prior to the annual and go over them with the shop prior to agreeing to the work.
 
Mooney Fan said:
My expectations are built off past experiences. Never have been charged additional for AD inspections on previous planes. I'm just curious if its more common than not. I get it though.
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Well, if an extensive AD only comes due every 5 years, why would that be included in the price of the annual for the other 4 years as well?
 
bradg33 said:
I'd expect AD research and compliance determination to be included in the annual price. I'd expect time/work spent actually complying with an AD to be a separate line-item.
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Which is what I've had between multiple planes and shops.
 
Seems normal to me however I don't like the system. Annual should be done by the hour just like other jobs IMO.
I paid a flat rate + AD Time on my last one and I feel like I got fleeced because I know that had it been billed by the hour it would have been 2/3 the cost or less.
 
Justin Brady said:
Seems normal to me however I don't like the system. Annual should be done by the hour just like other jobs IMO.
I paid a flat rate + AD Time on my last one and I feel like I got fleeced because I know that had it been billed by the hour it would have been 2/3 the cost or less.
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Be careful what you wish for. At the flat rate rates most shops in my area charge for the typical annual inspection and servicing of an aircraft I can't compete when I charge a reasonable hourly rate and charge the actual number of hours I actively work on the aircraft or its documentation. In other words, they're either giving a lot of shop time away or they're not doing an adequate job. Probably a little of both.
 
bradg33 said:
I'd expect AD research and compliance determination to be included in the annual price. I'd expect time/work spent actually complying with an AD to be a separate line-item.
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For some more anecdata, this has been my experience too. I've used some type-specialty shops, where they could very easily "bake in" the predictable 100-hour ADs that are customarily done every annual, but none did so, they were always an added line-item. Even the super innocuous "uplock roller AD" on beechcraft usually merited its own 0.25, even though it certainly was done while hitting all the other lubrication items at the annual.

$0.02
 
mondtster said:
Be careful what you wish for. At the flat rate rates most shops in my area charge for the typical annual inspection and servicing of an aircraft I can't compete when I charge a reasonable hourly rate and charge the actual number of hours I actively work on the aircraft or its documentation. In other words, they're either giving a lot of shop time away or they're not doing an adequate job. Probably a little of both.
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I think it depends on the shop, my last one charges 95/hr and annual was flat 2400 (retract beechcraft). He had it done in a day and a half, so I'm fairly certain he didn't work through the night to get 25 hours of labor.
Plane was in decent shape and he was able to breeze through it and I ended up footing the bill even though he was done in i'd say half the time billed.
 
Justin Brady said:
I think it depends on the shop, my last one charges 95/hr and annual was flat 2400 (retract beechcraft). He had it done in a day and a half, so I'm fairly certain he didn't work through the night to get 25 hours of labor.
Plane was in decent shape and he was able to breeze through it and I ended up footing the bill even though he was done in i'd say half the time billed.
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he probably had more than one person work on it. Three guys working 8 hours a day is twenty four billable hours
 
At 2 shops mine has gotten billed with a top line base annual expense ($$$$), but then some arrow/lycoming specific AD items are extra.

Here's one such example that pertains to the engine. The 69.93$ is in addition to the base annual cost.
upload_2022-7-14_16-42-32.png

Other items you'd expect are included in the base expense, and show up like this...
upload_2022-7-14_16-44-8.png

The only one that's recurring where I feel nickel-and-dimed every year is the wing spar calculation.
Since they do the calc every year they should be able to piggy back off the prior year's calc, instead I get billed for a half hour of work o_O
upload_2022-7-14_16-49-28.png
 
I must be one lucky SOB, I do owner assisted annuals and do all the work except for the compression check myself. I have a three ring binder with the annual checklist in it, I use AD logs that are printed out and in the binder. I document everything included items to check at next annuals. I know a lot more about my plane than my IA does. This year was a little different, I have just completed my home hangar, Three of us with the same plane did our annuals together, great learning experience as each owner checked out the others. We exchanged type knowledge. Always learning.
 
My plane is in annual right now.
I know I need a 500 hr mag check.....................
On the sunny side, the compressions were great.
 
Justin Brady said:
Seems normal to me however I don't like the system. Annual should be done by the hour just like other jobs IMO.
I paid a flat rate + AD Time on my last one and I feel like I got fleeced because I know that had it been billed by the hour it would have been 2/3 the cost or less.
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I worked at a shop that did exactly what you want. We were $15 less than most in the area on our rate but we were by far the most expensive out the door for an annual. When every man hour is tracked and billed it adds up quick.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I worked at a shop that did exactly what you want. We were $15 less than most in the area on our rate but we were by far the most expensive out the door for an annual. When every man hour is tracked and billed it adds up quick.
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I'm fine with that as long as its clearly tracked it's all peace of mind knowing everything was actually done
 
Half Fast said:
I'm not surprised that a shop might have a separate charge for some extensive recurring AD.

But, I would expect the shop to review your logs at the start of the annual and call you up and say, "Mr. Mooney Fan? Just so you're aware, you've reached NNNN hours and AD number ZZZZ is due. That requires a complete teardown of your gonkulator and since we didn't know about it prior to reviewing your logs, it wasn't included in our original estimate. How would you like to proceed?"

More importantly, you might want to review your own ADs prior to the annual and go over them with the shop prior to agreeing to the work.
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That’s ridiculous. Unless there is direct evidence of rabbit infestation why would they even look at the gonkulator?
That inspection must adhere to the Luntz diagram. Of course that is only if it is a seaplane...
 
Tom-Flying said:
That’s ridiculous. Unless there is direct evidence of rabbit infestation why would they even look at the gonkulator?
That inspection must adhere to the Luntz diagram. Of course that is only if it is a seaplane...
Click to expand...

You're supposed to measure the roentgen output of the capacitive reactance flux muster. If it is above 10 RGs, replace the unit. If it is below 10 RGs, you'll be directed to perform a series of tests that will effectively raise the billable hours of the service department, but will perform no other useful function.
 
flyingron said:
AD compliance and other maintenance are not part of the annual INSPECTION.
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The flat rate my shop charges is for AD research and inspection. It's just the initial base price. I've never had an annual that was only an inspection. There was always something to be done. I'll never complain though because they let me assist, which is apparently rare these days. I had some autopilot work done at a shop that would not even let me stand on the shop floor to observe.
 
Yep, my mechanic doesn't charge anything additional for my help.
 
Ahh yes...the old:
$100 an hour labor
$150 if you watch
$200 if you help
 
flyingron said:
Yep, my mechanic doesn't charge anything additional for my help.
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I get a big discount for my additional help.... This is what I gave my IA for my last annual...:rolleyes:
116-323-kit_300dpi_454x308mm_c_nr-15513-1500x1000.jpg

But... I open up and close for the inspection and do all the servicing. He does the inspection and AD search. Complying to the AD's is separate. My reoccurring AD's are not hard to complete after the initial AD is complied with.
 
Lon Stratton said:
The flat rate my shop charges is for AD research and inspection. It's just the initial base price. I've never had an annual that was only an inspection. There was always something to be done. I'll never complain though because they let me assist, which is apparently rare these days. I had some autopilot work done at a shop that would not even let me stand on the shop floor to observe.
Click to expand...
In the shops defense I absolutely hate when someone brings in a leaky pontoon and they want to watch me work, hover, and ask questions. They're probably staring at the bright light (despite me telling them not to) so that gives me solace. Pulling inspection covers for an annual is one thing. But watching someone try and diagnose a wonky autopilot is another.
 
I totally get it. I wasn't complaining about the autopilot shop (they don't know me), just pointing out the big difference in the two shops. I'm a service technician in a different industry and completely understand the hovering, which is why I "joked" about the labor rates. I'm so grateful my shop let's me assist in the annual, I do everything I can not to ruin the situation. I bring my own tools and try to be as invisible as possible. It's been over 20 years and we have a pretty good routine down now.

As for the original subject about annual billing, I'm not charged any less because of my help. They bill me the flat rate plus labor for everything else, even if it's mostly my labor. I don't care. The ability to participate in the annual is far too valuable to complain.
 
Lon Stratton said:
... I'm not charged any less because of my help. They bill me the flat rate plus labor for everything else, even if it's mostly my labor...
Click to expand...

Am I reading this right? You spend 8 hours opening and closing panels, removing and reinstalling seats and carpet and they CHARGE you for 8 hours of labor?
 
flyingron said:
You're supposed to measure the roentgen output of the capacitive reactance flux muster. If it is above 10 RGs, replace the unit. If it is below 10 RGs, you'll be directed to perform a series of tests that will effectively raise the billable hours of the service department, but will perform no other useful function.
Click to expand...
lol A classic episode.
 
Silvaire said:
Am I reading this right? You spend 8 hours opening and closing panels, removing and reinstalling seats and carpet and they CHARGE you for 8 hours of labor?
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Well, yes and no. The flat annual rate for my plane is $2400. AD research and inspection only. I pay that no matter what. So, yes, in that it doesn't matter who removes and reinstalls the panels, I pay the $2400. No, because, for example, when I replaced the wingtip landing light lenses, they only charged me the quarter hour for showing me how to do it properly, then inspect the final work.

My bigger point was how much I value being able to participate in my maintenance at a large shop with a lot of resources (parts department, engine shop, machine shop, etc.) Me being there doesn't change the price of the annual.
 
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