We gotta train better than this....

bbchien

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Bruce C
Report: 3,400 Air Violations Since 9/11
Jul 20, 10:02 PM EDT
By LESLIE MILLER - Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Pilots flew into restricted airspace 3,400 times across the country in the three years following the Sept. 11 attacks, according to a congressional report that says the government needs to better coordinate its response to such violations.

One agency should be in charge of steering planes away from restricted zones, according to the Government Accountability Office report, obtained by The Associated Press ahead of Thursday's hearing on the subject by the House Government Reform Committee.

Committee Chairman Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, said it's essential for agencies that oversee the skies to work together.

"A quick, coordinated response is absolutely vital if we are faced with a pilot or a plane with hostile intent," Davis said in a statement.

The Federal Aviation Administration, the North American Aerospace Defence Command and the Transportation Security Administration are responsible for making sure pilots don't fly where they shouldn't.

Jets have been scrambled more than 2,000 times since the terrorist attack on Sept. 11, 2001, including several well-publicized incidents during which private planes strayed into the restricted zone over Washington, causing the evacuation of the White House, the Capitol and other government buildings.

The GAO said there is no single leader of the airspace security effort.

"Without central leadership, the potential exists for a somewhat slower response to a violation as the agencies decide who is in charge while the violating aircraft continues to operate in restricted airspace," the report said.

The report also said the agencies don't always share information about airspace violations and don't define an airspace violation the same way.

All three agencies took strong exception to the report, saying the current system works well.

"It's been a success," said Master Sgt. John Tomassi of NORAD. "Although these things do happen, we can't prevent everything."

"The FAA takes all incursions very seriously," said agency spokesman Greg Martin. "We'll continue to work with the GAO, other federal agencies and Congress to strengthen airspace security even more through better coordination, clarification and information sharing."

TSA spokesman Mark Hatfield said the agency is getting more efficient at responding to airspace violations.

Since the terrorist attacks, the government has vastly expanded the amount of airspace it restricts. Aircraft aren't allowed to fly over nuclear power plants, chemical storage areas, military facilities, the nation's capital or any area where the president is traveling, or events such as the Super Bowl.

On Wednesday, the FAA restricted airspace above wildfires in the West to ensure the safety of airborne firefighting efforts.

The report noted that airspace violations are almost all inadvertent, because a pilot is trying to avoid bad weather or doesn't check for notices of the restrictions, as they're required to do.

Pilots flying private planes are responsible for 88 percent of the violations, and most occur in the eastern United States, where air traffic is heavy and there's a lot of restricted airspace.

Almost half the violations occur around Washington, where pilots aren't allowed to fly in an area of about 2,000 square miles unless they have a special identifying signal and maintain radio contact with the FAA.
 
I agree, Bruce. Half in the DC area.

I'd be interested to know the statistics for how many violations there were in the three years prior to 9/11.

I'd also be interested in knowing how many of those were the result of crappy NOTAMs early on in the process and whether we're getting better.
 
I still cling to hope that they will realize that its like telling a bunch of car drivers to not drive on roads that criss-cross a part of the nation and which have always been open. An impossible task, and a huge loss of freedom for questionable gain in safety. I know I am dreaming.
 
It seems several solutions are in process: Of course the Laser warning system is up in D.C.
Graphic Notams of the R and P areas at least would help. This so many miles from such and such for these hours to these altitudes, etc. can get pretty confusing. The graphics currently on AOPA and the FAA site can be very difficult to enlarge and to view in detail. They are on VFR charts with no overall reference point--just a point and the features around there are sometimes indistinguishable. If one doesn't know the immediate area, it can be confusing.

These are now being transmitted on some of the satelite weather sytems so you can receive them in flight. Something like this which is available to all aircraft at a reasonable price would be an tremendous help.

Getting the stable ones on GPS updates should already be done. Now, we need to get those in cockpits and to make sure they are shown on current charts. The TFRs are more problematic. I just don't understand flight into the more permanent areas. People aren't doing their homework or calling and asking for assistance before flying in these areas.

I also am an advocate of radios automatically monitoring 121.5 in the background. Right now, calls often go unanswered because an aircraft can't be contacted on a universal frequency. I am aware eveyone doesn't have to have a radio, but if one does, IMO, 121.5 should be monitored in the background just like on military aircraft. You should be able to manually adjust volume or disable, but it should be on by default. There is a current Notam requiring this, but I find many folks aren't talking to Center or monitoring 121.5.

As our airspace gets more congested and restricted, it's going to take more training, be more expensive and take more equipment to be able to traverse it. The local flights are easier, but if you're making frequent long distance flights, the above items should be seriously considered. Of course, filing IFR also helps and the need for an instrument rating will increase.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS
 
It seems to me what we're doing now isn't effective enough for the media and Congress. Perhaps we need a different restricted airspace designator for truly critical and always hot areas. Then have these areas clearly depicted on all charts. Maybe establish buffer zones between these restricted areas that happen to coincide in depth with the postional accuracy of the instruments (VOR & etc). Perhaps lower the ceiling on these places or establish corridors so there's *a way* to fly without having to circum navigate the whole area.

What else could be done ? I think we would have to analyze the "failures" and find fixable causes. Even though ultimately this will always be pilot-error, there are things between the pilots, ATC, FAA and the other agencies that could fixed to reduce the number. We'll never get to zero, but we can get closer. Other than the well-publicized errors of late, I believe we have gotten better.
 
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I think it goes beyond training. I have been mulling this for some time. The people who populate these boards are not, I would bet, the ones that we need to worry most about. The ones who DON'T go on these boards are the ones that we need to look to. They get their basic BFRs, maybe. And nothing else. I bet many of them don't even know HOW to get Notams, or to check even the AOPA home page for the scroll of TFRs.

I think that those of us who are out there flying regularly have a duty to try to dispel these problems. Everyone knows the guy in the hangar next door who never goes up, maybe once per year? You know, as Dr. Bruce would say, comes out, "kicks the tires and lights the fires" and goes. I think we need to be sticking our head in the hangar and talking to this guy about the TFR that popped up last week when Waldo decided to see some orphans at CXY. Remind him that there is airspace out there that cannot be entered by just "plowing on". Maybe ask if his VFR chart (you do have one right) is from this century.

I think if each of us on these boards, who spend the time to keep current, tried to spend a few minutes apiece with some of the "less frequent fliers" out there, we just might be able to make a difference.

Before you suggest that I put my $ where I'm flapping my gums, I have done this. You all know I am a denizen of S37. The guys from EAA 540 were at the core of the incident that happened in the FRZ a couple of months ago. You all probably remember my post about the effect at S37. It has been noteworthy to me that many of the pilots who hang around there a lot have said that these guys need education, but no one has approached them. (apologies to Bryan and Ed, but you guys don't "hang around there" much, so I don't count you).

I will probably never build an airplane, but I am an EAA member to do Young Eagles as soon as I get 300 hours in. So I took the plunge and have joined the group. Another regular at the airport has also done so. Between us, we fly a fair amount, and we are fairly well connected to the airport "politics". Already, I have been able to explain to these guys how the ADIZ works, and just how restricted the FRZ is. We have been also able to help explain to these guys what the bad PR did for the airport. They are working on both of these issues right now. I hope to be around the next time 26G is going out on another grand tour, so that I can put my two cents in.

This is my offering to help the situation with these incursions. I DON'T want to see another one from S37, that I might have been able to have some part in discouraging. I would feel that I bore some responsibility if I could have done something to educate and chose not to.

This piece is long. Sorry. I have been thinking about this for a while. I may post some sort of proposal when I get a few minutes to really think about it.


Again, I don't think we can count on the CFIs and the FAA to train away this problem. They work hard, and I appreciate all that they have done. But I see the need for a grass roots solution.

Jim G
 
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bbchien said:
Report: 3,400 Air Violations Since 9/11
Jul 20, 10:02 PM EDT
By LESLIE MILLER - Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON (AP) -- ...Pilots flying private planes are responsible for 88 percent of the violations, and most occur in the eastern United States, where air traffic is heavy and there's a lot of restricted airspace.

Obvious statistical question: What % of operations in the eastern US (or in and around Washington DC ADIZ) are GA flights?

Obvious news reporting question: Why didn't the reporter include that vital number (or atleast a good faith estimate)?

Obvious rhetorical question: Assuming the percentage of incidents roughly parallels the percentage of operations (which I believe is probably close to the case), once the GA flights are all grounded and 100% of the incursions are airliners, will the press call for grounding all airliners?
 
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Even more telling would be the percentage of VFR flights. Most airline operations are IFR, and are therefore VERY unlikely to run afoul of a restricted area or TFR.
 
MSmith said:
Even more telling would be the percentage of VFR flights. Most airline operations are IFR, and are therefore VERY unlikely to run afoul of a restricted area or TFR.

I believe the missing 12% are airliners...most of them on IFR flight plans.
 
wsuffa said:
I'd be interested to know the statistics for how many violations there were in the three years prior to 9/11.
Way, WAY more than were reported. B-space violations were a constant, but controllers almost always settled for chewing out the pilot rather than the headache of filling out the PD report. I heard it again, and again, and again. Only if the pilot blew all the way across the B-space, or really screwed up the controller's day, or was a real jerk about it with the controller, did anyone write the guy up. Now, every little nick is seen, tracked, and acted on. As a result, the numbers are not comparable. I suspect that the actual number of ADIZ violations per day now is way lower than the rate of B-space violations before 9/11, but without a review of the long-erased tapes to identify every one that occurred, there's no real way to tell.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
I believe the missing 12% are airliners...most of them on IFR flight plans.

1% was attributed to commercial airlines.
7% went to the military.
The remainder was "unknown".

Looks like we're about to have mandatory "training" crammed down our throats, and we will be required to carry a certificate of completion every time we fly near the National Capital Region. No credit given to the folks who have abided by the rules and flown successfully in that area many times.

Wonder if the "certificate" program will work as well as the TSA certificate generator?
 
wsuffa said:
1% was attributed to commercial airlines.
7% went to the military.
The remainder was "unknown".
Well, heck, THERE's the real story! 4% of airspace incursions are by UFOs!!!
 
I believe training is a big part of it.

Last Thursday My wife and I are headed to LVN Lakeville MN.

Going VFR called at 6am 2.5 to3 miles Vis. BR and FG will burn off later morning.

Went to the airport at 7:30 Preflight and packed while preflighting a young man pulls the FBO trainer out preflights begins to crawl in. I holler at him and asked were he was going. Going to go to DE's airport to practice for his PP exam the next day. I asked if he got a breifing, he said last night????

Called FSS and Vis was beginning to get better decided to wait another 45 min and call back. While talking to FSS I asked for the Stud. Pilots route of flight It was worse. I told him he needed to wait. and why.

He waited, We visited with him about the importants of the breifing.

His instructor had never had him Call the FSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bone head of a CFI.
 
grattonja said:
I think it goes beyond training. I have been mulling this for some time. The people who populate these boards are not, I would bet, the ones that we need to worry most about. The ones who DON'T go on these boards are the ones that we need to look to. They get their basic BFRs, maybe. And nothing else. I bet many of them don't even know HOW to get Notams, or to check even the AOPA home page for the scroll of TFRs.

I think that those of us who are out there flying regularly have a duty to try to dispel these problems. Everyone knows the guy in the hangar next door who never goes up, maybe once per year? You know, as Dr. Bruce would say, comes out, "kicks the tires and lights the fires" and goes. I think we need to be sticking our head in the hangar and talking to this guy about the TFR that popped up last week when Waldo decided to see some orphans at CXY. Remind him that there is airspace out there that cannot be entered by just "plowing on". Maybe ask if his VFR chart (you do have one right) is from this century.

I think if each of us on these boards, who spend the time to keep current, tried to spend a few minutes apiece with some of the "less frequent fliers" out there, we just might be able to make a difference.

Before you suggest that I put my $ where I'm flapping my gums, I have done this. You all know I am a denizen of S37. The guys from EAA 540 were at the core of the incident that happened in the FRZ a couple of months ago. You all probably remember my post about the effect at S37. It has been noteworthy to me that many of the pilots who hang around there a lot have said that these guys need education, but no one has approached them. (apologies to Bryan and Ed, but you guys don't "hang around there" much, so I don't count you).

I will probably never build an airplane, but I am an EAA member to do Young Eagles as soon as I get 300 hours in. So I took the plunge and have joined the group. Another regular at the airport has also done so. Between us, we fly a fair amount, and we are fairly well connected to the airport "politics". Already, I have been able to explain to these guys how the ADIZ works, and just how restricted the FRZ is. We have been also able to help explain to these guys what the bad PR did for the airport. They are working on both of these issues right now. I hope to be around the next time 26G is going out on another grand tour, so that I can put my two cents in.

This is my offering to help the situation with these incursions. I DON'T want to see another one from S37, that I might have been able to have some part in discouraging. I would feel that I bore some responsibility if I could have done something to educate and chose not to.

This piece is long. Sorry. I have been thinking about this for a while. I may post some sort of proposal when I get a few minutes to really think about it.


Again, I don't think we can count on the CFIs and the FAA to train away this problem. They work hard, and I appreciate all that they have done. But I see the need for a grass roots solution.

Jim G

What HawkDriver said...

It takes a village to raise some pilots.
 
Steve said:
Rant ON.

I guess the one ? I have is what does this report prove? One could say that these statistics only prove the point that GA is not a security threat since despite all these "violations" there was no adverse degradation of national security, only non-productive time spent scrambling jets and congresspeople.

One could say it's a big waste of time, money, and manpower on eliminating a non-problem. Or, the military is getting a lot of gratis training from GA on their intercept practice and equipment checkout. The idea of a sterile environment overhead does nothing to preclude evil intent. Al Kyeduhhuh and his minions could care less for "prohibited airspace" and security protocols, it just one more opportunity for them to show their impudence.

Eliminating GA from the airspace will not eliminate the ignorance that fuels the paranoia. Spend all the money for "pilot training" on "public elightenment" and get the monkey off joe/jane q. pilot for all this nonsense.

Rant OFF.


What Steve said.
 
bbchien said:
Not gonna happen. Just look at JayWalk of the Stars....whimper....

What Bruce said.

Once everyone has taken the training that the FAA is going to mandate, there will still be incursions. And once they continue to happen, we will find our flying more and more restricted. And expensive.
 
dogman said:
I believe training is a big part of it.

Last Thursday My wife and I are headed to LVN Lakeville MN.

Going VFR called at 6am 2.5 to3 miles Vis. BR and FG will burn off later morning.

Went to the airport at 7:30 Preflight and packed while preflighting a young man pulls the FBO trainer out preflights begins to crawl in. I holler at him and asked were he was going. Going to go to DE's airport to practice for his PP exam the next day. I asked if he got a breifing, he said last night????

Called FSS and Vis was beginning to get better decided to wait another 45 min and call back. While talking to FSS I asked for the Stud. Pilots route of flight It was worse. I told him he needed to wait. and why.

He waited, We visited with him about the importants of the breifing.

His instructor had never had him Call the FSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bone head of a CFI.

THIS is what I am talking about and proposing! Help the guy next door. It is all well and good to complain about training, and this or that policy, and lament that the airspace is going to go away from us. OR... We can do what this man did and make a positive difference. There is the very real possibility that the guidance provided here saved this student from a bad situation, or worse, a lethal accident. If you know the CFI, a word in his ear about what you saw (just the facts) might help too.

We can make a difference in what our fellow pilots are doing with just a few words of encouragement or guidance here and there.

I know I appreciate the guidance that senior folks, and those who know better than me ( plenty of them still) give me. Pass it on.

Jim G
 
From this morning's ePilot:
The proposal will require pilots to complete an FRZ/ADIZ and security TFR awareness training program, such as the AOPA Air Safety Foundation's "Know Before You Go" online course or an FAA safety seminar. Pilots would need to make a logbook endorsement and would receive a completion certificate that they'd be required to carry with them during flights into the national capital region. Pilots living within 100 miles of the ADIZ would have 30 days to comply, while pilots elsewhere would be given 120 days.

Not a bad compromise...
 
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jdwatson said:
From this morning's ePilot:


Not a bad compromise...


Not sure I completely agree. Logistically, 30 days/120 days is a challenge, depending on who and how the certificates of completion are issued. Will it be imposed as an interim final rule without comment?

Look at the debacle over CFI security training & certificate issuance. As of yet, I know of no courses for the required annual recurrent training.

What happens if somebody misses the deadline?

Will there be recurring requirements? After all, what is not used is easily forgotton.

Any credit for those based in the ADIZ or that are approved for flight into the FRZ? Why not?

Carry the completion certificate with you on every flight in the DC area? If a substitute wallet-sized card is acceptable, that's fine.

If this is done by SFAR, who sets the curriculum? And the endorsements? If you get training once, what happens at recurrent?

Sorry, I don't think this will be completely effective as the congresscritters want. If it fails, we can expect draconian restrictions.

Why don't I think it will be completely effective? Look at runway incursions. The FAA has had special training emphasis on these for several years. Yet they still occur with unacceptable regularity.

I can guarantee you that few, if any, of the CFIs down my way could train one iota about the ADIZ/FRZ. One of the most-used DE's down here had never flown up that way, and is not completely familiar with it. "I" could teach ADIZ procedures better than most of the local instructors because I fly up to the DC area several times a year... and even with that, I won't fly into the ADIZ as a VFR aircraft.

Further, even with this training, it won't stop the incursions by folks that are trying to skirt the edge using their GPS units... that is, unless it's telling them to keep a 5-mile berth.

No, I'm not really very positive on the way this is being proposed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more training. What I really would like to see is training tailored for the student and the student's type of flying, including focus on getting briefings, reading NOTAMs, conservative flying around these areas, etc - with recurrency/frequency of use to drive the point home. Somehow, I suspect that codified curriculum isn't going to achieve that.
 
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Great post, Bill. "Good compromise" in my mind was in reference to the huge fines that were proposed. I'm not sure the problem can be fixed. I'd like to see some realism replace the paranoia & drama. Unless the Govt is using GA as a distraction, so the more likely threats can be addressed I don't see much changing. How about effective threat analysis before they scamper all the pampered into the hots streets and shelters. The middle-east for decades has effectively been using cars instead of planes to terrorize. If I were an elected official in DC, I would fear minivans a whole lot more than a Cessna 172. But it makes great video footage on TV when they lead a pilot away in cuffs.

I suspect Hollywood will come up with a reality (sic) show that will address this soon. The news media cannot continue to reap the advertising dollars alone.
 
One other thing....

the more and more different regulations we put in, in more and more places, the harder it is for the average pilot to comply. Take a look sometime at the procedures that corporate flyers will have to undertake to fly into DCA. Then see how many times you have to read it, and how many questions you have to ask, to understand it and do it perfectly correctly *the first time*. There simply are no scenario-based training programs for the ADIZ out there.

The other problem I have with making this an SFAR is that the ADIZ is still just a NOTAM. It doesn't bode well for the training to be codified where the underlying airspace is merely restricted by NOTAM....
 
I was thinking about this thread last night on the way home, because I don't see any obvious answers. The real problem doesn't seem to be the pilots that are "aware", it's either a) those that bumble in due to avoiding weather/having equipment problems or b) those that are just CLUELESS and haven't even heard of the concept of a TFR because they take no training.

Situation "a" is harder to address. I think in documented cases of an airframe or powerplant emergency, really bad weather, pilot incapacitation or what-have-you, that these cases need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Situation "b" could be handled to some extent by requiring pilots to complete an AOPA Safety Foundation or FAA Wings seminar on TFRs, the ADIZ, how to check for them, and practical aspects, such as how to determine if you're within a TFR's boundaries (or approaching one!) using the typical nav aids and services we have available (radar flight following, VOR, DME, GPS, etc.). Successful completion of such a course, and presentation of the certificate, would be MANDATORY for the issuance of your next BFR and Medical certificate.

This would at least insure that all pilots know the procedures... there will always be some boneheads that don't follow the procedures, regardless. But since they KNOW the procedures, and that's been documented, the penalties can be more severe (revocation of license, etc.).
 
Troy Whistman said:
I was thinking about this thread last night on the way home, because I don't see any obvious answers. The real problem doesn't seem to be the pilots that are "aware", it's either a) those that bumble in due to avoiding weather/having equipment problems or b) those that are just CLUELESS and haven't even heard of the concept of a TFR because they take no training.

Situation "a" is harder to address. I think in documented cases of an airframe or powerplant emergency, really bad weather, pilot incapacitation or what-have-you, that these cases need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Situation "b" could be handled to some extent by requiring pilots to complete an AOPA Safety Foundation or FAA Wings seminar on TFRs, the ADIZ, how to check for them, and practical aspects, such as how to determine if you're within a TFR's boundaries (or approaching one!) using the typical nav aids and services we have available (radar flight following, VOR, DME, GPS, etc.). Successful completion of such a course, and presentation of the certificate, would be MANDATORY for the issuance of your next BFR and Medical certificate.

This would at least insure that all pilots know the procedures... there will always be some boneheads that don't follow the procedures, regardless. But since they KNOW the procedures, and that's been documented, the penalties can be more severe (revocation of license, etc.).

c) anti-authority. No law is gonna keep me from doing what I want to do. Maybe I won't get caught, it's a chance I'm willing to take. 'Course, if I do get caught I'll just plead ignorance.

Part of the problem is the execution of upholding the law. So far there has been this sabre rattling about next time. It's political death for one who so much is perceived as being on board with a shoot down. Heck, even the most egregious FRZ violation only got a 10 month slap on the hands. Until they enforce the penalities to the max extent no one will give much consideration to a violation. That you or I stay out of the zone is due more to our conscience of right and wrong and less to do with avoidance of the consequences of the vilolation.

Hit 'em in the pockets? Get real, we're pilots, we can afford it. A deepening of financial penalities always fails to attain the desired results. It may wake up some but the across the board result is just not there.

Face it, the govt is in a corner on this one. It's a bad law--there is a minimum of credible evidence the law does what it is supposed to do and it is unpalatable to carry out the punishement.
 
When I read the story about all of these incursions I head to read it twice for it is so hard to believe but then again anything is possible. I wonder if these incursions are flown by pilots who have the same attitude of a pilot that flies "continued VFR" when the weather runs down hill or the pilot that looks at his/her fuel state and feels they can make home on fumes. Or like the post before about the pilot who wanted to fly without getting a weather briefing. We do have to work to help our fellow pilots get refresher training and as Troy's post of getting specific mandatory training on flying near TFR's and ADIZ's.
About 8 years ago I met one of these pilots almost head on on landing. I and 5 other planes were in the pattern doing T & L. We were announcing our positions carefully. I was following the plane ahead of me and just after he called he was clearing the active. He then yelled out that there was a plane coming in on the opposite runway. I saw it land at the other end as I poured on the coal to go around. Two planes behind me did the same. We went around and landed. The airport manager was talking to the offending pilot and long story short the pilot did not even bother to check in on frequency for traffic. I asked why and he just said he just came off cancelling IFR and did not have time to check frequency. Yikes !!!

We need to work on training and as many others have suggested talking to our hanger and tiedown neighbors about the importance of being "Current" on TFR, ADIZ's weather and just good common sense flying habits. It would be great as Troy suggested AOPA or FAA Wings program could be the source of the training.

John J
 
John J said:
When I read the story about all of these incursions I head to read it twice for it is so hard to believe but then again anything is possible. I wonder if these incursions are flown by pilots who have the same attitude of a pilot that flies "continued VFR" when the weather runs down hill or the pilot that looks at his/her fuel state and feels they can make home on fumes. Or like the post before about the pilot who wanted to fly without getting a weather briefing. We do have to work to help our fellow pilots get refresher training and as Troy's post of getting specific mandatory training on flying near TFR's and ADIZ's.
About 8 years ago I met one of these pilots almost head on on landing. I and 5 other planes were in the pattern doing T & L. We were announcing our positions carefully. I was following the plane ahead of me and just after he called he was clearing the active. He then yelled out that there was a plane coming in on the opposite runway. I saw it land at the other end as I poured on the coal to go around. Two planes behind me did the same. We went around and landed. The airport manager was talking to the offending pilot and long story short the pilot did not even bother to check in on frequency for traffic. I asked why and he just said he just came off cancelling IFR and did not have time to check frequency. Yikes !!!

We need to work on training and as many others have suggested talking to our hanger and tiedown neighbors about the importance of being "Current" on TFR, ADIZ's weather and just good common sense flying habits. It would be great as Troy suggested AOPA or FAA Wings program could be the source of the training.

John J

There's already an FAA proposal to require training within about 100 days and subsiquent logbook endorsement which AOPA/ASF supports. You can take the test right now online and get the certification out of the way in about 10 minutes.

It's the free "Know Before You Go" course and test on AOPA.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
There's already an FAA proposal to require training within about 100 days and subsiquent logbook endorsement which AOPA/ASF supports. You can take the test right now online and get the certification out of the way in about 10 minutes.

It's the free "Know Before You Go" course and test on AOPA.

Dave,

Do you really think the course will solve the problem? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

It's nice eye candy, but it's not going to eliminate incursions... I seriously doubt it would have resolved the issues with either of the high-profile incursions lately. For example, the course won't eliminate those folks who try and cut the corner too closely on their GPS and get nabbed by radar.

bill
 
wsuffa said:
Dave,

Do you really think the course will solve the problem? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

It's nice eye candy, but it's not going to eliminate incursions... I seriously doubt it would have resolved the issues with either of the high-profile incursions lately. For example, the course won't eliminate those folks who try and cut the corner too closely on their GPS and get nabbed by radar.

bill

Bill,

I don't even UN-REALLY think it will solve the problem much less really, but it will be REQUIRED, and so all pilots that follow the regs might as well get at it. It will also raise the conciousness of a few borderline pilots, in random fashion, temporarily, and MAY tip the scale enough to keep them clear of restricted airspace.

Should I hold my breath while I wait for the checks to clear on that bridge property ?

DJK
 
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Dave;

Thanks for the post I just saw the news about the "training" At least is a start and who knows maybe just maybe it will help out. It sure is better than nothing

Thanks again

John J
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Bill,

I don't even UN-REALLY think it will solve the problem much less really, but it will be REQUIRED, and so all pilots that follow the regs might as well get at it. It will also raise the conciousness of a few borderline pilots, in random fashion, temporarily, and MAY tip the scale enough to keep them clear of restricted airspace.


I suppose I can take the course again to print the certificate... but I'm not about to do that until the FAA enacts the rule. Why? Because in my experience these things morph over time and we might well find ourselves being required to take some other training program rather than this one. And yes, before you ask, I ran through this (and most of the ASF programs) long ago.

Frankly, if they're going to impose training, let's make it meaningful, focus on the real problem, and reinforce the need to check NOTAMs and brief weather before the flight. I think that's where the real problem is, because I think that pilots who fly into the ADIZ - even on an irregular basis - will study and know most of this information already.

Just my opinion.

Should I hold my breath while I wait for the checks to clear on that bridge property ?

DJK

No need, as you rightly observed there is no bridge for sale.
 
wsuffa said:
I suppose I can take the course again to print the certificate... but I'm not about to do that until the FAA enacts the rule. Why? Because in my experience these things morph over time and we might well find ourselves being required to take some other training program rather than this one. And yes, before you ask, I ran through this (and most of the ASF programs) long ago.

Frankly, if they're going to impose training, let's make it meaningful, focus on the real problem, and reinforce the need to check NOTAMs and brief weather before the flight. I think that's where the real problem is, because I think that pilots who fly into the ADIZ - even on an irregular basis - will study and know most of this information already.

Just my opinion.



No need, as you rightly observed there is no bridge for sale.

WHaaaa ?? No bridge ?
I really wanted that bridge so I could get over S... C...k !
 
Here's a good idea...

All airports near (say 100nm?) the ADIZ and/or a permanent TFR (P-56, Camp David, Crawford, etc.) should have these installed at the departure end of all runways (look at the sign at the far right, under the nose of the plane):
 
Troy Whistman said:
Here's a good idea...

All airports near (say 100nm?) the ADIZ and/or a permanent TFR (P-56, Camp David, Crawford, etc.) should have these installed at the departure end of all runways (look at the sign at the far right, under the nose of the plane):

Given the number of Part 91 folks that I've seen ignore those....

Never mind.
 
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