We gonna talk about BitCoin?

DJTorrente said:
Not if you consider money merely as a store of value; a medium of exchange. In the barter world 3 deer pelts may be worth a side of pig among two people, and among two others a side of pig worth a jar of honey. But the guy with the pelts and the guy with the honey may have no interest in each other. If we assign those things a unit of value set according to millions of exemplary trades, its called money, and lots of different people can trade lots of different things.

So the core "belief" I have to have in the dollar, or a (real) pound sterling, is that someone else will accept it in exchange for something I want.
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Well said. If everyone can produce it without producing some value then it becomes worthless.
 
Captain said:
Even if money is backed by a real thing (gold, hydrogen, silver or salt) it's value is STILL arbitrary and requires peoples belief that those things have value. All of those do have value to some but only because they want it. It's the belief by the masses that those 'some' are going to keep wanting it that gives it value.

In fact, at it's root 'value' is a belief held by one, a few, many or all. Point is, all currency requires a certain degree of belief to work.
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There is not a problem with a root value as long as the root value is a real one. The root value of hydrogen is life itself. As long as the commodity is sufficiently simple to produce, there is no great ability to manipulate the supply. That is why the decentralization of production is a systemic requirement. This creates stability in supply and demand rather than drive volatility. Since hydrogen will be a ubiquitous commodity of consumption to provide the essential needs of life, it is the perfect unit of barter because comparative value is easy to establish by anyone directly. You can simply base a currency directly on quantity of product. Now you have a representative system of barter that is constrained in ability to be corrupted by decentralized production of both energy and currency. The Founders fully allowed, and the US used to have, multiple currencies, for this intent. The problem is that the currencies were all required to be backed in a commodity, to have real value behind them, and we had the Gold and Silver standards as have been used through history.

The problem with this is the limitations on the commodity supply constrain the growth of an economy. That is why we had to finally dump them. With an unlimited commodity that can be created and harvested in a plethora of ways from a multitude of source on earth and in space, we adopt a currency that can operate without limitation and a supply that will naturally grow alongside population and economic growth.

Right now our money is only what we believe it is worth right now. By dinner time it could be worth whatever heat you get out of it by burning it.
 
PaulS said:
Well said. If everyone can produce it without producing some value then it becomes worthless.
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But if everyone can produce it by producing a kilogram of hydrogen, it becomes a currency that has the same value regardless who produces it or how much it costs them. You now have a true Free Market the way it's supposed to work. You create competition and stability in the energy, currency, and food, markets. You take away the ability for those who have inherited by "Divine Right" to govern us. We took away their political control at the beginning of the last century, lets take away their economic control this one.

There was a threat at the beginning of the Obama administration and he faced down the Fed. He threatened to mint billion dollar coins and pay off the Fed with them. It would be just as simple to make the current currency irrelevant by cooperative decree and make a voluntary conversion completely painless. you can choose to maintain use of the current system if you want. You can even use both systems wherever they produce the result you want. No problem having competition. Remember, our current money has nothing behind besides what we assign it. It is created from human imagination.
 
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But if I can produce hydrogen cheaply and easily, why would I trade anything of value for your hydrogen? I'd just use mine.

I get the "backed by real commodity" part, and I get the "not centrally controlled" to avoid manipulation part. What I don't get is the "ubiquitous brings value" part. :confused:

John
 
docmirror said:
Took another hammering today.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-keeps-falling-worries-keep-150458399.html

I was trying to find an exchange that would let me short it as an investment, but I gave up too soon. I really wanted to bet short on it last time there was a halt to trading. Meh - if only.
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Can you borrow bitcoins? Seems like the play would be to borrow bitcoin and convert it to $. Then eventually convert back and repay. Basically same as shorting.
 
jsstevens said:
But if I can produce hydrogen cheaply and easily, why would I trade anything of value for your hydrogen? I'd just use mine.

I get the "backed by real commodity" part, and I get the "not centrally controlled" to avoid manipulation part. What I don't get is the "ubiquitous brings value" part. :confused:

John
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Well, it still costs to produce, and economies of scale are real regardless. Right now I don't need to buy electricity, I can fire up the genset and make all I want. However, for the quantities I need, I cannot produce it as economically as a large production facility, either monetarily or thermally.

However, I can invest in the neighborhood Urban Ag and Energy CooP. Now we are producing at the Forecourt scale, and one that can produce added value to the energy use.
 
Producing hydrogen consumes more energy than is produced when you go to use it. It wouldn't make it as a currency.
 
PaulS said:
Producing hydrogen consumes more energy than is produced when you go to use it. It wouldn't make it as a currency.
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When you use hydrogen in a fuel cell, you get electricity, heat, and water. Both the heat and water have value. The water has more value than the electricity.

You know it takes a ****load of energy to make and distribute gasoline and natural gas too right?
 
Henning said:
When you use hydrogen in a fuel cell, you get electricity, heat, and water. Both the heat and water have value. The water has more value than the electricity.
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Thermodynamics rests for no technology.

Energy out < energy in, regardless of what way you get it.

So, how long until you give up on this like your naval subs powering the world idea?
 
Henning said:
You know it takes a ****load of energy to make and distribute gasoline and natural gas too right?
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Yup, it sure does.

And it's still less than the energy contained in the fuel. If you had to make the gasoline from CO2 and water, it would be very different.

The basic problem is that you cannot mine hydrogen. Every last bit of it must be made, and it will contain less energy than was needed to make it. Fossil fuels are entirely different.
 
JeffDG said:
Thermodynamics rests for no technology.

Energy out < energy in, regardless of what way you get it.

So, how long until you give up on this like your naval subs powering the world idea?
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Never give up on what is right. Every advance in technology always had people like you proclaiming it impossible, people with way more credibility than you.
 
Henning said:
Never give up on what is right. Every advance in technology always had people like you proclaiming it impossible, people with way more credibility than you.
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Good God, Henning.

Everything is possible? Do you really believe that?

Some things really are impossible, no matter what kind of magical thinking you may endorse.

Perpetual motion machines have been known to be impossible for quite some time, and no one has EVER demonstrated a conclusive exception. Not for lack of trying.

Why not invent Quiddich equipment while you're at it?

Sorry, Henning. You're positively wrong on this. You will never succeed in creating perpetual motion. You can say I said so.
 
MAKG1 said:
Good God, Henning.

Everything is possible? Do you really believe that?

Some things really are impossible, no matter what kind of magical thinking you may endorse.

Perpetual motion machines have been known to be impossible for quite some time, and no one has EVER demonstrated a conclusive exception. Not for lack of trying.

Why not invent Quiddich equipment while you're at it?

Sorry, Henning. You're positively wrong on this. You will never succeed in creating perpetual motion. You can say I said so.
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Efficiency to double and triple our output from resource is possible without a doubt by injecting a biological product or two into the waste stream.
 
Thought I would revive this thread.
A former co-worker is telling me to get into "onecoin"

It is a crypto-currenty like bitcoin but tied to a MLM scheme.

It reeks of scam but if enough people buy into it, maybe it will become real.
So so so many red flags.

They claim 1.8 million members and when it hits 5 million, they are going to open the coins up to the forex.
Anyway, if somebody wanted to get into the next bitcoin on the ground floor this is what they are claiming onecoin is.

www.onecoin.com

I wouldn't give them any more money than you are comfortable putting into a shredder.
 
I'm busy setting up a PO Box for all of those defective Andrew Jackson $20 bills that people will be wanting to get rid of, once the Tubman version is out.

Just mail them all here, and I'll properly dispose of them. I promise.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm busy setting up a PO Box for all of those defective Andrew Jackson $20 bills that people will be wanting to get rid of, once the Tubman version is out.

Just mail them all here, and I'll properly dispose of them. I promise.
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I heard a comment on the radio that they scheduled the change to the twenty dollar bill for years in the future, so that they won't have to take political heat when it finally happens.
 
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