"We don't serve your type"

Ken Ibold

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
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Ken Ibold
A guy my wife knows ordered a new car from an Infiniti dealership. It arrived, and he went to go pick it up. The salesman showed him the car, and they sat down to do paperwork. The general manager walked in and said, "we don't do business with fags" and refused to sell him the car. The salesman walked out. The GM threatened to fine the salesman $1000 for ordering a car that couldn't be delivered. The salesman has been fired.
 
My response would be "that's right, you don't. And you don't sell cars to any of my friends either. Or any of their friends. Or anyone I can reach on my favorite brand of social media. Or anyone who reads the full page ad I'm going to take out in the paper. Pretty soon, you wont' be selling cars to anyone."
 
I wonder if the customer and the salesman are going to like owning the Infiniti dealership when the lawyers get done with them. If indeed this is true, it is wrong on a bunch of levels.
 
Pa28-140 said:
I wonder if the customer and the salesman are going to like owning the Infiniti dealership when the lawyers get done with them. If indeed this is true, it is wrong on a bunch of levels.
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How would the salesman have any standing in a lawsuit? If I said something similar to a customer I would expect to be fired immediately, and rightly so. But then Colorado is an employment at will state. I wonder if Florida is.
 
Everskyward said:
How would the salesman have any standing in a lawsuit? If I said something similar to a customer I would expect to be fired immediately, and rightly so. But then Colorado is an employment at will state. I wonder if Florida is.
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The salesman sided with the customer. But you are right, Florida is employment at will.
 
If I'm Infiniti (are they owned by a bigger fish?), I can the GM and consider suing him for any business loss I can prove, rehire the salesman with a handsome bonus in the form of "please don't sue us and keep your mouth shut," and unconditionally give the car to the prospective purchaser for free and pay whatever taxes might be owed and tell him that he'll get new cars for life every two years for cost at the expense of that dealership (and if the dealership doesn't like it, it doesn't have to sell Infinitis anymore).

Just. Wow.
 
Ken Ibold said:
The salesman sided with the customer. But you are right, Florida is employment at will.
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I would also give the salesman the option of kicking the GM in the jimmy after delivering the notice of termination.
 
Ken Ibold said:
The salesman sided with the customer. But you are right, Florida is employment at will.
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OK, I read the post wrong to begin with. :redface:

In that case, if I was the owner of the dealership I would fire the GM, and reinstate the salesman.
 
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Interesting. Not that I condone it, but to what extent is a car dealership required to sell to anyone who is not part of one of the groups already listed (womensfolk, skin color, national origin etc.) in specific civil rights / equal rights legislation ?


Unless the particular state protects (perceived) sexual orientation specifically, there may not be much of a case here.
 
Everskyward said:
How would the salesman have any standing in a lawsuit? If I said something similar to a customer I would expect to be fired immediately, and rightly so. But then Colorado is an employment at will state. I wonder if Florida is.
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Yes, Florida is an employment at will state.
 
I'm with Obi -- assuming the facts are as stated, I think when Nissan regional or national hears about this, the GM (and probably the dealer owner who tolerated him) will be in deep corporate trouble, the salesman will be rehired (with back pay), and the customer will have a free car.

And even if Florida is an "employment at will" state, the GM can't fire the salesman for the grounds stated (ordering an undeliverable car) unless there was some sort of written policy against selling to homosexuals so the salesman would know it was "undeliverable" (and I kinda doubt there was). See http://www.expertlaw.com/library/employment/at_will.html, especially the "Contractual Protections" section, which may apply even if there is no contract of employment, because I strongly suspect that every Nissan/Infiniti dealer has personnel and policy manuals which the described firing probably violated.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And even if Florida is an "employment at will" state, the GM can't fire the salesman for the grounds stated (ordering an undeliverable car) unless there was some sort of written policy against selling to homosexuals so the salesman would know it was "undeliverable" (and I kinda doubt there was).
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Oh boy... :rolleyes2:

Sorry, various "Right to Work states" (such as PA, WV, and IIRC, FL) don't require "cause" -- e.g, the salesman can be fired for whatever whim comes to mind, period.
 
Maybe it was a religious issue?

Maybe the purchaser attended the First Assembly of God?







(BTW, years ago I played against a softball team in our church league. They had to re-order hats after thiers came in with the prominent initals on the cap: F. A. G.)
 
dmccormack said:
Oh boy... :rolleyes2:

Sorry, various "Right to Work states" (such as PA, WV, and IIRC, FL) don't require "cause" -- e.g, the salesman can be fired for whatever whim comes to mind, period.
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Not so. See what I was adding while you were replying.
 
Ken Ibold said:
A guy my wife knows ordered a new car from an Infiniti dealership. It arrived, and he went to go pick it up. The salesman showed him the car, and they sat down to do paperwork. The general manager walked in and said, "we don't do business with fags" and refused to sell him the car. The salesman walked out. The GM threatened to fine the salesman $1000 for ordering a car that couldn't be delivered. The salesman has been fired.
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How did the sales manager know this guy was a "fag"?
 
weilke said:
Interesting. Not that I condone it, but to what extent is a car dealership required to sell to anyone who is not part of one of the groups already listed (womensfolk, skin color, national origin etc.) in specific civil rights / equal rights legislation ?
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Assuming the original account was true, the word "fag" was used, which is a slang for male homosexual in certain locales. Homosexuals form a legally protected group. It is already listed. A nice racket if you can get one. Nobody can be upset with you for any reason, you can behave youself in any way you please in any place of business and they have to eat it up - as long as you can present the case in a favourable way. Since we only heard one side of the story, likely as not the customer pushed someone's buttons too well, and his interlocutor broke under pressure. Some of the protected individuals really enjoy it.

The right way to handle these cases is to establish policies that discriminate on unprotected basis, enforce them consistently, pay your legal liability premiums on time, and most importantly, keep your mouth shut! You do not evict a raging homosexual from the premises for being a homosexual, you evict him for raging. There are many companies and freelancers that provide the necessary training for the customer-facing personnell.
 
zaitcev said:
You do not evict a raging homosexual from the premises for being a homosexual, you evict him for raging.
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So let me get this straight (pun intended), by your logic you could evict a black man, not for being black, but for ACTING black?

Sorry but bigotry by another name (or tactic) is still bigotry!
 
I should point out that this happened in Alabama, not Florida. Homosexuals were listed as a protected class in hate crime legislation in Alabama last year.
 
zaitcev said:
Homosexuals form a legally protected group. It is already listed.
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Where ?

Certainly not on the federal level. A number of states have laws that provide protection on that basis, but this is far from universal.


Also, there is no law prohibiting a bully or idiot from calling people 'bad names'.
 
stagecoachco said:
So let me get this straight (pun intended), by your logic you could evict a black man, not for being black, but for ACTING black?

Sorry but bigotry by another name (or tactic) is still bigotry!
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No, you evict him for being an a-hole. I didn't interpret the term raging as him being a Freddie Mercury look alike wearing ass-less chaps.
 
zaitcev said:
A nice racket if you can get one. Nobody can be upset with you for any reason, you can behave youself in any way you please in any place of business and they have to eat it up - as long as you can present the case in a favourable way. Since we only heard one side of the story, likely as not the customer pushed someone's buttons too well, and his interlocutor broke under pressure. Some of the protected individuals really enjoy it.
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I can appreciate this notion. I have known several "millitant" members of various protected classes who are more than willing to play this card. However, the guy in question is very soft spoken, very quiet. He ain't raised no rabble.
 
I find this hard to believe. There have been several stories of abuse that were later proved to have been invented by the "victim" to generate sympathy. If the story is true the GM is a moron and will undoubtedly loose his job. I can't believe that somebody in sales would pass up profit as the result of a personal bias, especially an Infinity dealership. Jaguar actively marketed it's cars to the gay community and I would not be surprised if other high end companies did as well.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/beware_hate_crime_hoaxes.html
http://www.discriminations.us/2004/03/hate_crime_hoax_at_claremont_c.html
 
stagecoachco said:
So let me get this straight (pun intended), by your logic you could evict a black man, not for being black, but for ACTING black?
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What's your definition of "acting black"?

Sorry but bigotry by another name (or tactic) is still bigotry!
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I would suggest that it is bigotry to assume that there is such a thing as "acting black."

That said, as regards Peter's earlier statement, "raging" suggests aggressive, disturbing behavior that creates rational fear or disrupts normal activities (e.g., "raging drunk"). If the aggressive behavior of a homosexual or black person were to create such rational fear in other tenants, the landlord could legally evict him just as he could evict a "raging" tenant who is not in a protected class, even if the evicted person claimed that this behavior was somehow characteristic of their protected class. So if a homosexual male tenant were to be making uninvited and undesired sexual advances on every male tenant in the building, and refused to stop, that person could be evicted for that behavior (not for his status) just as a heterosexual male could be evicted for making such advances on all female tenants.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I can appreciate this notion. I have known several "millitant" members of various protected classes who are more than willing to play this card. However, the guy in question is very soft spoken, very quiet. He ain't raised no rabble.
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In that case I hope he wins in the imminent litigation and the manager receives an object lesson.
-- Pete
 
That's a major problem. Hopefully the dealership will learn the hard way way this was a bad idea on their part.

I've said to dealerships before "Are you in the business of selling [whatever] or ****ing off customers? Because right now you're doing a lot of the latter, which isn't going to help you do any of the former."
 
Bottom line, this is a breach of K case. To order the car, there must have been a deposit, as well as a purchase and sale agreement. The car was deliverable. The dealer breached, doesn't really why, does it?
The PR is another matter.
 
Ron Levy said:
What's your definition of "acting black"?...
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Not reflecting visible light? :wink2:

Sorry, could not resist.

---

Back on point: What a stupid situation.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Bottom line, this is a breach of K case.
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Infiniti is selling K cars now?

1982.jpg


Slick!!!!


(Then the GM did the buyer a favor)
 
as a privately owned business, I can choose who I sell to and who I don't sell to.

Now, I am not going to tell the guy: Hey look man you're 5' 10", I only sell to people 6 foot and above, but I could just tell him I don't have what he is looking for or find some other way to not serve him.

Is it right to not sell to a specific group of people? Not to me, but it is what it is and racism is alive and well today all throughout the south, I've seen it first hand.

I've seen places who will not rent to black people in Columbia, SC. I've seen places who would not let black people eat in Alabama, I've even seen this type of behavior in North Florida (Jax and SW of there near Alachua co)

it's pretty despicable that in 2011 people are still racist...
 
dmccormack said:
Sorry, various "Right to Work states" (such as PA, WV, and IIRC, FL) don't require "cause" -- e.g, the salesman can be fired for whatever whim comes to mind, period.
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Not so. You can fire without cause, but you CANNOT fire for reasons that are prohibited by state or federal law.

You can fire me for wearing a brown shirt. You cannot fire me for being male, or Hispanic, or disabled.
The trick is, being able to determine WHY someone terminated. And that's why we have courts.
 
PilotAlan said:
Not so. You can fire without cause, but you CANNOT fire for reasons that are prohibited by state or federal law.

You can fire me for wearing a brown shirt. You cannot fire me for being male, or Hispanic, or disabled.
The trick is, being able to determine WHY someone terminated. And that's why we have courts.
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Sure is true -- *if* the employer isn't really stupid: "You're fired because you're [protected class here]"

All the boss has to say is "You're done."

No "why" required.

Only protected categories have access to the courts.
 
Has he tried contacting anyone from Nissan corporate? I dont know how it is in Alabama but here the newspapers would thrive on this story.
 
I think the guy clearly seeing the boss come in and say you can't sell to fags is pretty crazy... So this was in front of the allegedly gay man buying the car?

Looks like the gay man has a witness (the salesman) and the salesman has a witness as well (the gay dude)

the manager is an idiot.... This being in the jax area, though, I completely see this going in favor of the manager.
 
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