Watch out for the crazies

[jpower]

As I mentioned in my other thread from yesterday (aircraft checkouts), we had a very interesting experience with a total wacko pilot. I first picked him out as we were heading back to do landing practice during my Remos checkout and pointed him out to my instructor. We both kept our eyes on him as we were cruising back to the airport at about 2000 ft, and as we were watching him, we realized that he was really really low, and that he was following the creeks just inland from the Chesapeake. We both thought he was a seaplane at first.

My instructor wanted to take a closer look, because we have some NIMBYs that can be pretty vicious, and he knows who a lot of the local pilots and planes are. We don't want NIMBYs calling Bay Bridge Airport and complaining about something we didn't do.

So we go down to take a closer look, and it's a Cessna of some sort, a 172 or a 182, red and white, but we couldn't get close enough to get an N number. By the time we turn around to go shoot landings, he's heading towards the area about a mile off the departure end of Runway 11, the active runway, at a few hundred feet. Not exactly a good place for a plane to be. My instructor calls out on Bay Bridge's CTAF that there's a guy there, and getting no response from him, tries the old CTAF to see if he's perhaps on that frequency. Nope, no response. So fuming we went back and shot landings. First two were bouncers, my first landings in the type. On our base to final turn for the third landing, our Cessna friend cruises right across the final approach path. It doesn't sound very dramatic when I write out out, but it was a midair waiting to happen. My instructor broke off and wanted to go get an N number, which we did. Those 12" numbers are pretty easy to read from far away! He gave the Cessna a vigorous wing wag in case he was looking our direction, and we headed back to shoot more landings.

When I was at the hold short line looking up on final, there he was, cruising at a few hundred feet off the approach end of Runway 11, still the active. I jumped on flight following at my first opportunity, and never heard from him again.

SOOO, feel free to discuss, fume, bicker, sympathize--do what you will. But this was definitely a good training moment for me. Though my instructor told me this many times, this really drove it home for me. Even though if there's nobody on the radio, KEEP LOOKING OUTSIDE. And keep a lookout for the loonies. Just because it would be stupid to do something doesn't mean someone isn't doing it right now.

 

[Old Geek]

Sounds like your average crop duster where I live...

 

[Sac Arrow]

Could you be more specific about what he was doing that was whacko?

 

[RussT]

Seriously? What a douche!

I almost 'became one' with a banner tower in the pattern at Santa Monica. He just flew at pattern altitude across the field, I dived to the right to avoid him. What an ass. What's worse is the tower never called him out. I said to the tower "Piper 2L had a REAL good view of the traffic to my right"

Another incident when I was departing from Santa Monica; I was climbing and you turn right at the shore line, and I notice on TCAS there is something below me -500 feet moving in the same direction and speed I was, I deviated left a bit, looked down and there was a helicopter climbing right below me. Again, not a word from the tower.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Yeah, there are many no radio planes around where I am so you just have to keep an eye out. Possibly it was an aerial photographer or someone unfamiliar with the area. If your airport has multiple runways perhaps they assumed another one was active. As long as they didn't bust airspace or altitude minimums it seems like a case of see & avoid to me.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

What's worse is the tower never called him out. I said to the tower "Piper 2L had a REAL good view of the traffic to my right"

Another incident when I was departing from Santa Monica; I was climbing and you turn right at the shore line, and I notice on TCAS there is something below me -500 feet moving in the same direction and speed I was, I deviated left a bit, looked down and there was a helicopter climbing right below me. Again, not a word from the tower.

Pointing out traffic to you is not towers job. As PIC it is your job to see & avoid. Tower did nothing wrong and neither did that helicopter but you took appropriate action.

I also wouldn't consider than an "incident"

 

[RussT]

Pointing out traffic to you is not towers job.

I understand they are supposed to give traffic advisories. So I'm not sure if this is correct.

As PIC it is your job to see & avoid

Correct, but that does not mean that the tower does not give traffic advisories.

I also wouldn't consider than an "incident"

OK forum police. Got it.

 

[Shepherd]

I had a Maule on floats fly under me last summer when I was at 2000' and inbound to DXR.
Got to keep the head moving and the eyes engaged at all times.

Glenn

 

[Apache123]

Could you be more specific about what he was doing that was whacko?

I'd consider cutting off someone turning base to final whacko; isn't that where we typically see the stall-spin occur? Add in the distraction of someone crossing your flightpath, and that could get ugly I imagine.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I understand they are supposed to give traffic advisories. So I'm not sure if this is correct.

Correct, but that does not mean that the tower does not give traffic advisories.


OK forum police. Got it.

"AIM 4-4-11:
...VFR conditions clearance. Under these conditions, ATC may issue traffic advisories, but it is the sole responsibility of the pilot to be vigilant so as to see and avoid other aircraft."

heh forum police? no there are plenty others for that

 

[jpower]

Could you be more specific about what he was doing that was whacko?

To me, maneuvering through the traffic pattern at a very busy untowered airport when you're not talking on the radio is a no-no. I understand that airplanes fly with no radios all the time, and that it used to be that every single airplane used to be like that. Though see and avoid works, as it did in this case, it's not perfect. There ARE midair collisions. And intentionally flying across the traffic pattern strikes me as a midair waiting to happen.

Busting across the final approach path (he was on the glideslope northbound, active runway was roughly eastbound) of one of the busiest untowered airports around (Easton and Salisbury, both with towers (and Salibury with commercial service), are less busy than Bay Bridge according to Airnav) does not strike me as an intelligent and safe or courteous thing to do, even if you are talking on the radio. Being off the radio, it seems purely idiotic. There's a difference between what's legal and what's safe and what's courteous. What he did was not safe, even given see and avoid, nor was it courteous.

The flying low over the creeks I understand. Fine by me, except that the NIMBYs will be sending nastygrams. I bet it's a real hoot. It's the flying across the upwind leg and the final approach path without being on the radio that's the problem in my book.

 

[RussT]

Well is there any guidance for pilots transitioning across fields? Any time I do it, I would go mid field well above pattern altitude. Anyone crossing final/departure at altitudes that there is traffic on approach or at pattern altitude is waiting for something to happen.

 

[Sac Arrow]

To me, maneuvering through the traffic pattern at a very busy untowered airport when you're not talking on the radio is a no-no. I understand that airplanes fly with no radios all the time, and that it used to be that every single airplane used to be like that. Though see and avoid works, as it did in this case, it's not perfect. There ARE midair collisions. And intentionally flying across the traffic pattern strikes me as a midair waiting to happen.

Busting across the final approach path (he was on the glideslope northbound, active runway was roughly eastbound) of one of the busiest untowered airports around (Easton and Salisbury, both with towers (and Salibury with commercial service), are less busy than Bay Bridge according to Airnav) does not strike me as an intelligent and safe or courteous thing to do, even if you are talking on the radio. Being off the radio, it seems purely idiotic. There's a difference between what's legal and what's safe and what's courteous. What he did was not safe, even given see and avoid, nor was it courteous.

The flying low over the creeks I understand. Fine by me, except that the NIMBYs will be sending nastygrams. I bet it's a real hoot. It's the flying across the upwind leg and the final approach path without being on the radio that's the problem in my book.

Got the picture. Sounds like a real deutzch bag.

 

[jtheune]

To me, maneuvering through the traffic pattern at a very busy untowered airport when you're not talking on the radio is a no-no. I understand that airplanes fly with no radios all the time, and that it used to be that every single airplane used to be like that. Though see and avoid works, as it did in this case, it's not perfect. There ARE midair collisions. And intentionally flying across the traffic pattern strikes me as a midair waiting to happen.

Busting across the final approach path (he was on the glideslope northbound, active runway was roughly eastbound) of one of the busiest untowered airports around (Easton and Salisbury, both with towers (and Salibury with commercial service), are less busy than Bay Bridge according to Airnav) does not strike me as an intelligent and safe or courteous thing to do, even if you are talking on the radio. Being off the radio, it seems purely idiotic. There's a difference between what's legal and what's safe and what's courteous. What he did was not safe, even given see and avoid, nor was it courteous.

The flying low over the creeks I understand. Fine by me, except that the NIMBYs will be sending nastygrams. I bet it's a real hoot. It's the flying across the upwind leg and the final approach path without being on the radio that's the problem in my book.

From your description of his location it sounds like he was in the SFRA. Did you try asking Potomac is they were talking to him? Also if he really was at 200 feet a mile off the arrival end of the runway then he should not have had a conflict with you as you should have been higher at that point. Now I know I would prefer for him not to be there if I'm landing but I think is is a lot more going on there then has been said so far.

 

[jpower]

From your description of his location it sounds like he was in the SFRA. Did you try asking Potomac is they were talking to him? Also if he really was at 200 feet a mile off the arrival end of the runway then he should not have had a conflict with you as you should have been higher at that point. Now I know I would prefer for him not to be there if I'm landing but I think is is a lot more going on there then has been said so far.

He wasn't quite in the SFRA. It starts right about where the bridge meets the Western Shore. He was flying a little bit offshore (the Eastern Shore, that is), but not by much. We weren't on with Potomac at the time, and didn't think about it.

In terms of where he was when we were landing, I'm not sure of his exact altitude. He was right on the glidepath though--if our timing had been just right and we hadn't seen him, there could easily have been a midair.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

He was right on the glidepath though--if our timing had been just right and we hadn't seen him, there could easily have been a midair.

Heh, well if I was at the wrong place at the wrong time there could have easily been a midair every single day I fly! Thus we see and avoid.

 

[jpower]

Heh, well if I was at the wrong place at the wrong time there could have easily been a midair every single day I fly! Thus we see and avoid.

True. But why put yourself and others more at risk for a midair by flying right across the final approach path without telling anyone about it?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

True. But why put yourself and others more at risk for a midair by flying right across the final approach path without telling anyone about it?

Oh I fully agree. To me I'm guessing he/she had no idea where or that your airport existed he/she was which is just plain stupid especially around the SFRA. It also seems like they did not do the appropriate see and avoid action as you did.

 

[Alexb2000]

Low altitude near uncontrolled airports = Danger (always)

So what are you going to do with the N number?

What regulation was he busting and can you prove it?

These guys really do make you crazy with their disregard for safety and common sense, but there isn't anything you can do about it. I'm sure just like always someone will be along to cite chapter and verse about why that is the case.

 

[zaitcev]

Well is there any guidance for pilots transitioning across fields? Any time I do it, I would go mid field well above pattern altitude.

That's probably the best way. Towered fields clear to the same all the time, too, including our own Class C.

BTW, airplanes in the air often look strange, both look-up and look-down. Distances and altitudes are deceptive even to pilots who should know better. And finally, very many pilots are just not used to operation around other airplanes. Strange, but true.

When I started flying with an old CFI for my tailwheel, I found that he's entirely unperturbed by RVs in the pattern doing the RV thing: swarming all around, rolling on for takeoff while we're on final, and so on. If I were solo, I'd be freaked out more than the OP by that 172.

The other time I crossed the approach exactly like that OP's nemesis 172 did, because my mountain CFI told me so. It was part of the excercise to fly low near the ground, and we were on our way to another airport. We were on the radio, however, and it does not seem like anyone was disturbed.

 

[ClimbnSink]

There are a million ways to collide out there, most of them have nothing to do with whacko piloting. People on the ground, in other planes, and a panel full of electronics are no guarantee of separation. Some pilots are worse then smart phone zombie pedestrians. Look around man, look around.

 

[Jaybird180]

What's a NIMBY?

 

[Sac Arrow]

Not In My Back Yard. Cali is loaded with them.

 

[jtheune]

He wasn't quite in the SFRA. It starts right about where the bridge meets the Western Shore. He was flying a little bit offshore (the Eastern Shore, that is), but not by much. We weren't on with Potomac at the time, and didn't think about it.

In terms of where he was when we were landing, I'm not sure of his exact altitude. He was right on the glidepath though--if our timing had been just right and we hadn't seen him, there could easily have been a midair.

The SFRA is a circle and it touchs the western shore north of the airport. If he was coming up from the south then the circle actually is almost even with the edge of the airport.

 

[bobmrg]

Seriously? What a douche!

I almost 'became one' with a banner tower in the pattern at Santa Monica. He just flew at pattern altitude across the field, I dived to the right to avoid him. What an ass. What's worse is the tower never called him out. I said to the tower "Piper 2L had a REAL good view of the traffic to my right"

Another incident when I was departing from Santa Monica; I was climbing and you turn right at the shore line, and I notice on TCAS there is something below me -500 feet moving in the same direction and speed I was, I deviated left a bit, looked down and there was a helicopter climbing right below me. Again, not a word from the tower.

The tower does not provide separation services except as a courtesy.

Bob Gardner

 

[jpower]

The SFRA is a circle and it touchs the western shore north of the airport. If he was coming up from the south then the circle actually is almost even with the edge of the airport.

Hmm...not sure what you mean. He was paralleling the Eastern Shore when he cut me off on final.

I was just about due East of Kentmoor when I first saw him, and I was headed Northwest. He was off our right nose, playing around over some of that inland water. When I saw him again, we were turning base to final for Runway 11 at Bay Bridge, and he was northbound just off the arrival end of 11.

 

[jpower]

Low altitude near uncontrolled airports = Danger (always)

So what are you going to do with the N number?

What regulation was he busting and can you prove it?

These guys really do make you crazy with their disregard for safety and common sense, but there isn't anything you can do about it. I'm sure just like always someone will be along to cite chapter and verse about why that is the case.

I'm leaving it to the instructor I was flying with at the time. He's going to talk to our chief CFI to get her opinion. I think it's pretty clear that he was violating 91.13, but I don't know how it would be proven other than purely by what we saw.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I'm leaving it to the instructor I was flying with at the time. He's going to talk to our chief CFI to get her opinion. I think it's pretty clear that he was violating 91.13, but I don't know how it would be proven other than purely by what we saw.

You going and having a look at someone violating 91.13 violates 91.13 and 91.111(b). Go turn yourself in, I bet if you rat out your instructor you can get a plea deal for yourself.

 

[jpower]

You going and having a look at someone violating 91.13 violates 91.13 and 91.111(b). Go turn yourself in, I bet if you rat out your instructor you can get a plea deal for yourself.

Haha, I figured someone would bring that up. Those 12" numbers are pretty easy to read from a ways away. Then again, I think that's the idea. But I'm leaving it to the instructor to figure it all out.

 

[kmead]

Watch out for crazies? Did you visit Kansas?

 

[MassPilot]

The tower does not provide separation services except as a courtesy.

Bob Gardner

Not all Class D towers have radar. ORH near me is one example. They have a a controller with a radio and binoculars and that's about it. They rely primarily on pilot position reports. You can tell that you're landing at a towered airport without radar when you've been getting VFR flight following and the approach controller tells you to squawk 1200 after telling you to contact tower.

 

[denverpilot]

So we go down to take a closer look, and it's a Cessna of some sort, a 172 or a 182, red and white, but we couldn't get close enough to get an N number.

Wasn't me or my airplane. Just sayin'.

 

[HerrGruyere]

Not to derail the thread too much, but what's with NIMBYs? I just don't get how a plane is SO NOISY when it flies by that far away. Especially if I'm inside or something.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Not to derail the thread too much, but what's with NIMBYs? I just don't get how a plane is SO NOISY when it flies by that far away. Especially if I'm inside or something.

They can't deal with anything out of the static norm, same as the OP.

 

[flyingmoose]

I'm leaving it to the instructor I was flying with at the time. He's going to talk to our chief CFI to get her opinion. I think it's pretty clear that he was violating 91.13, but I don't know how it would be proven other than purely by what we saw.

Its a small world out there and an even smaller community. I would be careful about going and "telling" on others. I would think your instructor would know that and might hurt his chances at getting that all elusive fourth bar. ha Nothing wrong with having a chat with the guy/gal who did the flying if you find it necessary. Not hard to find that info out.

 

[weilke]

Could this have been some aircraft flying a photo or survey mission ?

Unfamiliar operations often create anxiety in folks who dont have experience with them.

 

[flyingmoose]

Could this have been some aircraft flying a photo or survey mission ?

Unfamiliar operations often create anxiety in folks who dont have experience with them.

Sure could have been, but seems like some are fast to jump to conclusions before knowing what all is involved.

 

[weilke]

Sure could have been, but seems like some are fast to jump to conclusions before knowing what all is involved.

'red and white', for all we know this could have been a CAP aircraft on bay-patrol for the state, or some contractor counting moose for the DNR*.

I have been 'chased around' by a 'crazy guy' in a Skymaster at night, turns out he was doing mosquito control on a contract with the city.


* I know, there are no moose on the eastern shore, maybe he counts 'yellow dotted tern', loons or measures the lenght of boat docks.

 

[jpower]

Its a small world out there and an even smaller community. I would be careful about going and "telling" on others. I would think your instructor would know that and might hurt his chances at getting that all elusive fourth bar. ha Nothing wrong with having a chat with the guy/gal who did the flying if you find it necessary. Not hard to find that info out.

He knows the guys who own the plane, so he might talk with them directly. I'm not sure. I'm now more than 400 miles away at school, so I'm more or less out of it .

Sure could have been, but seems like some are fast to jump to conclusions before knowing what all is involved.

'red and white', for all we know this could have been a CAP aircraft on bay-patrol for the state, or some contractor counting moose for the DNR*.

I have been 'chased around' by a 'crazy guy' in a Skymaster at night, turns out he was doing mosquito control on a contract with the city.


* I know, there are no moose on the eastern shore, maybe he counts 'yellow dotted tern', loons or measures the lenght of boat docks.

It wasn't CAP red/white. More of a maroonish color, I think?

After I saw the thread come back, I decided to do a little poking into things to see what I could find, and it turns out that it was probably out counting waterfowl. But still, the instructor I flew with knows the guys who own the plane and fly it, and he doesn't think they would fly through the pattern of an airport they know is busy no matter what they're doing.

Regardless of the legitimacy of their mission, I still maintain that knowingly flying off the departure end of the active runway and buzzing right across final cutting planes off that are already on final, both at one of the busiest nontowered airports in the area (if not the busiest) while not being on the radio counts as crazy. And yes, assuming the owners were the ones flying, they would know about Bay Bridge Airport. They've been on the Eastern Shore forever, and so has Bay Bridge.

 

[weilke]

After I saw the thread come back, I decided to do a little poking into things to see what I could find, and it turns out that it was probably out counting waterfowl. But still, the instructor I flew with knows the guys who own the plane and fly it, and he doesn't think they would fly through the pattern of an airport they know is busy no matter what they're doing.

Ok, so we are getting somewhere. Looks like rather than a case of 'crazy' we have a case of 'obnoxious and arguably unsafe'.

If he was doing survey work, he should have announced on CTAF what he is doing and where.