Was it Frost?

H

HerrGruyere

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Middle River, MD
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Pistol Pete
Quick question:

I was at the airport a while ago and it was a cold night. I was going for a flight. I noticed what looked like a frozen substance on the wing above the fuel tank area. A quick wipe of my hand seemed to get a little bit of it off, and a small scrape with my nail got the rest. It was only slightly moist to the touch. I got what I could get off. It didn't look like frost to me. Just like a slightly frozen concentration - like when you pull a beer glass out of the freezer and it gets all frosty* on the outside. Sort of like that. Was that frost? The plane didn't fly much differently, and there wasn't any on the plane when I got back.

I ask because this weekend I would like to go flying. The weather calls for a bit of snow the night before. I just wanted to know what to look for after I brush the plane off (if I need to).

I also know to ask about runway conditions and braking and stuff. Granted, this is a well-maintained airport so I'm not too worried. I just didn't fly a whole lot in winter. I started training in the middle of February and we flew through a little bit of snow just once.

Any insight is appreciated.

Best,
Pete


*I realize I said "frosty" here. I just want to make sure of the difference between frost and frozen condensation/dew.
 
Slightly frozen concentration = Frost!

Yea sounds like it. If its not water, try and get it off as much as possible.
 
When it doubt, play it safe and brush it off. No harm in removing it, the only harm exists if it stays.
 
flyingmoose said:
Slightly frozen concentration = Frost!

Yea sounds like it. If its not water, try and get it off as much as possible.
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There is no established safe minimum of frost permissible. Remove all of it!

Post a write-up after your flight!
Enjoy.
 
Jaybird180 said:
There is no established safe minimum of frost permissible. Remove all of it!

Post a write-up after your flight!
Enjoy.
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Amen. The FAA has even retreated from their "polish it smooth" alternative.
 
get a garden sprayer, fill it with RV pink antifreeze and keep it at indoor room temperature.
 
Jaybird180 said:
There is no established safe minimum of frost permissible. Remove all of it!

Post a write-up after your flight!
Enjoy.
Click to expand...
:rofl: OK! You are right Jaybird.

On second thought, just cancel your flight. No sense in being unsafe.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Quick question:

I was at the airport a while ago and it was a cold night. I was going for a flight. I noticed what looked like a frozen substance on the wing above the fuel tank area. A quick wipe of my hand seemed to get a little bit of it off, and a small scrape with my nail got the rest. It was only slightly moist to the touch. I got what I could get off. It didn't look like frost to me. Just like a slightly frozen concentration - like when you pull a beer glass out of the freezer and it gets all frosty* on the outside. Sort of like that. Was that frost? The plane didn't fly much differently, and there wasn't any on the plane when I got back.

I ask because this weekend I would like to go flying. The weather calls for a bit of snow the night before. I just wanted to know what to look for after I brush the plane off (if I need to).

I also know to ask about runway conditions and braking and stuff. Granted, this is a well-maintained airport so I'm not too worried. I just didn't fly a whole lot in winter. I started training in the middle of February and we flew through a little bit of snow just once.

Any insight is appreciated.

Best,
Pete


*I realize I said "frosty" here. I just want to make sure of the difference between frost and frozen condensation/dew.
Click to expand...


Speaking for every pilot who lives north of the Mason-Dixon line:
DON'T make me come down there and hurt you!

:nono:

ASIS will tell you about runway and braking conditions. Go slow, test your brakes, and be ready to throttle back in a big hurry if the plane slides during mag test.

Most important, have fun.

Glenn
 
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I wouldn't do what I did again that fateful night. But, I'll keep an eye out on the weather and see what the rental place has to offer in terms of de-ice/frost equipment.

It's supposed to snow the night before, so I'll likely need a broom to get everything off. The airport is fairly large and quite popular, so surfaces should be in good condition.

This is one of those times where I wish I owned a plane or had access to a plane that is kept in a hangar.
 
A rolling stone gathers no moss and a dry wing gathers no frost.
 
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GMascelli said:
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Agreed with the mix, but a suggestion to do a 50/50 mix of the pink stuff and some really good quality blue winter windshield defrost mix, the stuff that's good to 20 or 30 below F. The pink stuff is a bit more viscous, and sticks, the blue has a greater immediate impact on melting capability..and yeah, keep the stuff stored inside, preferable in a warm room. Oh, and try not to get too much/or any if you can, on the plexiglass....
 
Ok stupid question from one of us desert flyers that has never seen frost (unless you count on the grass only once a year never on a vehicle). Will the "pink" stuff stain or harm white AC paint? Do you just squirt it on and fly or does it have to be wiped/rinsed?
 
HerrGruyere said:
I agree. No sense in canceling if I can get (and keep) the frost off.
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Mr. Pistol Pete...There was a truck load of sarcasm included in that comment.:wink2: It was directed at Jay as he scolded me for saying "most" and not "all!":rolleyes: With experience comes wisdom, go up there scrape it off and go fly. Done! :thumbsup:
 
The first FAA safety meeting I attended was on frost. It was very interesting, they had a scale wing section in a little wind tunnel with a smoke stream then introduced cold into the wing section to create frost on the surface. The effect on the airflow was quite substantial even with just a thin layer.
 
Jaybird180 said:
A rolling stone gathers no moss and a dry wing gathers no frost.
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Frost is not frozen dew. Frost sublimates onto the surface directly from water vapor in the air, as the surface cools faster than the surrounding air via radiation of its heat into space. It happens on clear or mostly clear nights and can even happen on a clear subfreezing morning morning when you pull the airplane out of the hangar into outside air that has temp and dewpoint very close.

The best fluid is a commercial aircraft deicing fluid. I had to buy a 45-gallon drum of it to get any at all, but you might be able to bum some off an airline shop. It's sticky stuff that stays in place for awhile and discourages further frost. Mixing RV antifreeze with water might result in the antifreeze evaporating (I think it's just alcohol) and the water remains and forms ice. Even windshield washer fluid will do that.

http://www.aircraftdeicinginc.com/dilearnmore.html

Dan
 
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Dan Thomas said:
Frost is not frozen dew. Frost sublimates onto the surface directly from water vapor in the air, as the surface cools faster than the surrounding air via radiation of its heat into space. It happens on clear or mostly clear nights and can even happen on a clear subfreezing morning morning when you pull the airplane out of the hangar into outside air that has temp and dewpoint very close.

The best fluid is a commercial aircraft deicing fluid. I had to buy a 45-gallon drum of it to get any at all, but you might be able to bum some off an airline shop. It's sticky stuff that stays in place for awhile and discourages further frost. Mixing RV antifreeze with water might result in the antifreeze evaporating (I think it's just alcohol) and the water remains and forms ice. Even windshield washer fluid will do that.

http://www.aircraftdeicinginc.com/dilearnmore.html

Dan
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The pink RV/Boat antifreeze for water systems is IIRC a food grade polyethylene glycol. Mixing 50/50 with water gives it the lowest freezing temp.
 
Henning said:
The first FAA safety meeting I attended was on frost. It was very interesting, they had a scale wing section in a little wind tunnel with a smoke stream then introduced cold into the wing section to create frost on the surface. The effect on the airflow was quite substantial even with just a thin layer.
Click to expand...

Some topics REALLY need a video posted on You Tube that clearly show obvious facts.. This is one of the critical topics...:yes:.

For instance.. I stumbled on this one a year or so ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE


It is 60 years old and after I spent 6 minutes watching it I promptly ordered some streamline fairings for my struts and picked up 16 mph..:):):)
 
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danhagan said:
Ok stupid question from one of us desert flyers that has never seen frost (unless you count on the grass only once a year never on a vehicle). Will the "pink" stuff stain or harm white AC paint? Do you just squirt it on and fly or does it have to be wiped/rinsed?
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paint and plexiglass windows, no problem. There are rumors of white fiberglass planes taking on a faint pink tone if you do it regularly. I've seen one and I swear I could see it, but others disagreed.
 
HerrGruyere said:
I was at the airport a while ago and it was a cold night. I was going for a flight. I noticed what looked like a frozen substance on the wing above the fuel tank area. A quick wipe of my hand seemed to get a little bit of it off, and a small scrape with my nail got the rest. It was only slightly moist to the touch. I got what I could get off. It didn't look like frost to me. Just like a slightly frozen concentration - like when you pull a beer glass out of the freezer and it gets all frosty* on the outside. Sort of like that. Was that frost? The plane didn't fly much differently, and there wasn't any on the plane when I got back.
Click to expand...

Yup, that right there is textbook frost. You'll often see either condensation (clearly liquid) or frost (not liquid) on the fuel tanks when parked outside on a clear night.

Any insight is appreciated.
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How it affects you depends on where it forms, how much of it, what plane you're flying, etc. The FAA's recommendations to get rid of ALL frost came after a jet was unable to take off, overran the runway and crashed. If you're flying a light 182 on a 5000-plus foot runway, no worries whatsoever.

*I realize I said "frosty" here. I just want to make sure of the difference between frost and frozen condensation/dew.
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There is no difference - that's one type of frost. If the wing gets below the dewpoint of the surrounding air, you get condensation. If the wing gets below the dewpoint of the surrounding air AND less than freezing, you get frost.

Jaybird180 said:
A rolling stone gathers no moss and a dry wing gathers no frost.
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Not so. All it needs is to be below the dewpoint of the surrounding air. I most frequently see frost on the wings after I've gone out for a $100 hamburger on a clear night. Heat radiates from the wings out into space, eventually it hits the dewpoint, and often in the dry winter air that'll be below freezing. Presto, frost on a formerly dry wing.
 
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Get a roll of visqueen and a roll of scotch tape, tape a layer of visqueen to the top surfaces of the aircraft the night before. when it snows or gets frosty, simply remove the visqueen and go fly.
 
That's smart. I wish I lived closer to the airport so I could do this. I'm going to call them today and see what kind of stuff they have available for de-icing.

And iASCIIart/flyingcheesehead, thanks for your response! That was precisely what I wanted to know.
 
N801BH said:
Some topics REALLY need a video posted on You Tube that clearly show obvious facts.. This is one of the critical topics...:yes:.

For instance.. I stumbled on this one a year or so ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE


It is 60 years old and after I spent 6 minutes watching it I promptly ordered some streamline fairings for my struts and picked up 16 mph..:):):)
Click to expand...
Thanks
 
flyingmoose said:
Mr. Pistol Pete...There was a truck load of sarcasm included in that comment.:wink2: It was directed at Jay as he scolded me for saying "most" and not "all!":rolleyes: With experience comes wisdom, go up there scrape it off and go fly. Done! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
No scold intended.
 
We have on occasion, even in the desert, what appears as dew on the glider canopy. Wipe it with a rage and it turns to ice. Temperature is above 32F, normally around 40F. Now we wait for the sun to melt it.
 
N801BH said:
Some topics REALLY need a video posted on You Tube that clearly show obvious facts.. This is one of the critical topics...:yes:.

For instance.. I stumbled on this one a year or so ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE


It is 60 years old and after I spent 6 minutes watching it I promptly ordered some streamline fairings for my struts and picked up 16 mph..:):):)
Click to expand...

It always amazes me how a 60 year old 6 minute video can explain everything so clear vs. taking a semester long class from a "modern" educator and never understand what they're trying to teach.

Straight forward, simple, I love it.

Thanks for the link.
 
Back when I was doing a lot of flying up in Canada, they guys up there showed me a little trick to remove frost that worked very well and was very cheap. Just go to the auto parts store and buy a few cans of aerosol windshield deicer. The cost is about a buck a can and 1 can will be more than enough to knock back even the heaviest layer of frost. You'll want to check the ingredients on the can, but most everything I've seen is harmless to paint and plexiglass. It's a whole lot easier dealing with a couple of cans of windshield deicer in your trunk than having to screw around with a garden sprayer and a gallon jug or two of stuff that you'd use to blend your own fluid.
 
Best thing to do is to taste it. If your tongue freezes to the wing it was frost.

This is also the safest way to test since you will not be able to fly until it warms up enough for your tongue to separate from the wing. Ever see Christmas Story???
 
tmyers said:
Best thing to do is to taste it. If your tongue freezes to the wing it was frost.

This is also the safest way to test since you will not be able to fly until it warms up enough for your tongue to separate from the wing. Ever see Christmas Story???
Click to expand...

Hahahahahah nice methods.
 
Alexb2000 said:
It always amazes me how a 60 year old 6 minute video can explain everything so clear vs. taking a semester long class from a "modern" educator and never understand what they're trying to teach.

Straight forward, simple, I love it.

Thanks for the link.
Click to expand...

Sally: Ever wonder how they had youtube 60 years ago?
John: That's stupid. But hmmmm.....I did notice that it was in Black and White
 
Turns out the flight center has plenty of de-ice equipment.

Still, I won't go flying tomorrow. It's supposed to be kinda gusty. I'll go Sunday morning, though.
 
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