Wankel rotary engine

Crap, I didn't realize they charge to read. I don't think the entire mag costs that much. Well, the Feb edition is still in the racks at the B&N bookstore I went to.

BTW: the Wankels I have sat behind (automotive use) sipped fuel.

Recalling from memory some specifics from the article: .47 BSFC @ 6000 RPM produces 550 SHP in the engine used for testing.

WRT to 'solveable problems', the article addressed fatigue. The author started with the position that the fillets at the crank journals are especially problematic. That plus cylinder spacing in an engine block (automotive engine conversion to aircraft) significantly contribute to catastrophic failure. The Wankel has no crank fillets or moving parts in exhaust valves.
 
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I'm pretty sure the wankel does have crank fillets, 2 for each rotor. I'd have to agree with you on the exhaust valves though.
I know in my experience with one RX2 pickup and 2 RX7's fuel economy was not an outstanding feature. The RX7's did ok when you compared them to equivalent weight vehicles but were behind in the mpgs. As Henning noted the engines are not known for economy of fuel and the only real advantage I can see for them is horsepower per cubic foot of space occupied. I loved my RX7's but never expected them to be other than what they were. (It was cool to drive up the on-ramp at 65mph in second at 8500rpm though.....)

Frank
 
Not a subscriber and don't feel like paying $7.50 to read it. However in the intro that appears it claims that all the shortcomings are "solveable" but they aren't. The primary problem with them is they are fuel hogs, and nothing solves that.

The auther. Paul Lamar, is a self professed expert who needs to be taken in very light doses. All engines have their strong points and shortcomings. Henning can testify a piston engine in a top fueler can put out 8000+ hp without breaking the crank, At the fillet or anywhere else. Getting a reasonable BSFC is a real challange for a rotary simply because of the design of the way it breathes. Surpressing the exhaust noise is another setback and the exhaust heat you have to deal with is problematic and has lead to the downing of more then one aircraft.

Ben.
ps, Henning, PM me for the route into Kitplanes..
 
Crap, I didn't realize they charge to read. I don't think the entire mag costs that much. Well, the Feb edition is still in the racks at the B&N bookstore I went to.

BTW: the Wankels I have sat behind (automotive use) sipped fuel.

Recalling from memory some specifics from the article: .47 BSFC @ 6000 RPM produces 550 SHP in the engine used for testing.

WRT to 'solveable problems', the article addressed fatigue. The author started with the position that the fillets at the crank journals are especially problematic. That plus cylinder spacing in an engine block (automotive engine conversion to aircraft) significantly contribute to catastrophic failure. The Wankel has no crank fillets or moving parts in exhaust valves.

I've run a lot of different engines under very controlled conditions on a dyno, and for the hp Wankels have always been the worse than recips. Actually a Wankel's strong suit, the ability to turn high rpms, goes against what an airplane needs. I have yet to try one on nitromethane, although I suspect if I can make it hold together it may do very well on that because of the long burn time of the fuel. My first Wankel was in an RX3 which was smaller, lighter and less powerful than a 72 Chevy Nova with a 250ci 6 cylinder, yet it got 17 miles to the gallon in comparison to the Nova's 27.
 
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BTW, I've never broken a forged or billet crankshaft regardless the HP I put to them. Usually a crankshaft gets ruined when a rod lets go
 
Getting a reasonable BSFC is a real challange for a rotary simply because of the design of the way it breathes. Surpressing the exhaust noise is another setback and the exhaust heat you have to deal with is problematic and has lead to the downing of more then one aircraft.

Ben.

I used to have shop access at Mazda's factory race team. The list ben provided gives the hurdles they always fought to overcome. Reliability was the one issue they never worried about. They always finished. OK, there was the one time someone dropped a bolt into the intake manifold...

Lack of engine braking was another issue, but that isn't particularly relevant in aircraft.
 
In all applications, the fuel consumption with a given engine is based on the speed, vehicle's drag (both aerodynamic and internal friction), and efficiency of the engine at the required horsepower (the required horsepower being determiend from the first two).

Wankels are typically efficient in the RX-7 because the RX-7 is a very small, light, aerodynamic car that doesn't need much power even at highway speed. But even then, they're still pretty inefficient. This is the same problem that a lot of these wonder engines have - you can't get the best economy BSFCs that the traditional aircraft engines do, and people don't want extra fuel consumption.

Haven't read the article, but the Wankels are known for pretty low efficiency. I can't imagine them being particularly viable in an aircraft application. Perhaps when compared to a turbine, but not a piston.
 
Ok, read the article.

They make a lot of good theoretical points on the Wankel, but their doom-and-gloom view of the piston engine ignores the fact that overall, the reliability is fairly robust vs. the Wankel, which needs much more R&D work to get to the theoretical levels they profess. There's a reason why you don't see many in cars these days and see lots of piston engines. The article also incorrectly states endurance requirements per 14 CFR Part 33.49, see:

http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulato...A443CD7A269CB0A9852565C5005FAD2F?OpenDocument

14 CFR 33.49 said:
(b) Unsupercharged engines and engines incorporating a gear-driven single-speed supercharger. For engines not incorporating a supercharger and for engines incorporating a gear-driven single-speed supercharger the applicant must conduct the following runs:
(1) A 30-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 5 minutes at rated takeoff power with takeoff speed, and 5 minutes at maximum best economy cruising power or maximum recommended cruising power.
(2) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 1 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 1/2 hour at 75 percent rated maximum continuous power and 91 percent maximum continuous speed.
(3) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 1 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 1/2 hour at 70 percent rated maximum continuous power and 89 percent maximum continuous speed.
(4) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 1 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 1/2 hour at 65 percent rated maximum continuous power and 87 percent maximum continuous speed.
(5) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 1 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 1/2 hour at 60 percent rated maximum continuous power and 84.5 percent maximum continuous speed.
(6) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 1 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 1/2 hour at 50 percent rated maximum continuous power and 79.5 percent maximum continuous speed.
(7) A 20-hour run consisting of alternate periods of 2 1/2 hours at rated maximum continuous power with maximum continuous speed, and 2 1/2 hours at maximum best economy cruising power or at maximum recommended cruising power.

Note that this testing involves pushing the engine beyond how they're normally run, both in terms of RPM and power output, not at all what they say:

KitPlanes said:
The FAA engine certification test requires full power at sea level for only 5 minutes at a time.

Buyer beware...
 
Quiz time...
What factory built aircraft has been in production since before 1997 (IIRC). More than 230 have been built and I believe they are still in production and they use a Wankel engine?
 
Quiz time...
What factory built aircraft has been in production since before 1997 (IIRC). More than 230 have been built and I believe they are still in production and they use a Wankel engine?

Are you talking about the military UAV thing? BTW, did you know Wankel designed the engine with the intent that it go in an aircraft? It was meant to go in a Heinkel IIRC. Do you know that the US Navy has Wankel powerheads on their outboards burning JP-5 or what ever the "One Fuel" fuel is, and that it is still a spark plug engine?
 
Ted, I don't remember if they had a supercharger on their test engine in the article.

Anyway, I appreciate how this thread has evolved. I am not satisfied with a "because" response without the supporting explanation.
 
Ted, I don't remember if they had a supercharger on their test engine in the article.

Well, the quote I did was for naturally aspirated and single gear-speed superchargers. Two-speed superchargers (which to my knowledge have been out of production for decades) are another section. Turbosuperchargers (i.e. turbochargers) are run to pretty much the same test, but some form of simulated altitude must be used and a few other requirements (see the link to 33.49). However the power output is still required.

Anyway, I appreciate how this thread has evolved. I am not satisfied with a "because" response without the supporting explanation.

Definitely, me too.
 
There were Mazda 3 rotor wankels raced in IMSA some years back with great success. They were producing about 1000hp from very small displacement engines and cleaned up the circuit for the first year. The next year fuel and weight restrictions were imposed and the wankels died a slow and painful death. The two things that killed them were efficiency and horsepower. The made a lot of power but that power took fuel. The efficiency of the engines was lower than that of the piston rivals so they were unable to make the power and get the fuel economy too. I love the engines because they are neat but have no illusions about them taking over the aircraft world. I've been hearing that since the 70's and still haven't seen it happen.

Frank
 
There were Mazda 3 rotor wankels raced in IMSA some years back with great success. They were producing about 1000hp from very small displacement engines and cleaned up the circuit for the first year. The next year fuel and weight restrictions were imposed and the wankels died a slow and painful death. The two things that killed them were efficiency and horsepower. The made a lot of power but that power took fuel. The efficiency of the engines was lower than that of the piston rivals so they were unable to make the power and get the fuel economy too. I love the engines because they are neat but have no illusions about them taking over the aircraft world. I've been hearing that since the 70's and still haven't seen it happen.

Frank


Over the years, Jim Downing's teams ran 2, 3, and 4 rotor engines in categories from GTU, through GTP light, GTO, etc. Here's an interview where he talks about a bunch of information, including the fact that their 2 rotor engines were about 330 HP, tuned for distance races..

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/downing.htm

Jim is also the person who designed, patented, and sells the HANS device, which is mandated as neck protection in many classes of racing. He developed it because he was getting neck strain driving his own cars.
 
IIRC there were some experiments to solve the high BSFC issues by using ceramic rotors, engine blocks or both.

The main cause of it's poor efficiency is a high surface area to volume ratio of the combustion chamber.

Rotary engines loose a lot of power through the cooling system.
 
Crap, I didn't realize they charge to read. I don't think the entire mag costs that much. Well, the Feb edition is still in the racks at the B&N bookstore I went to.

BTW: the Wankels I have sat behind (automotive use) sipped fuel.

Recalling from memory some specifics from the article: .47 BSFC @ 6000 RPM produces 550 SHP in the engine used for testing.

If a BSFC of .47 is "sipping" fuel, the sub .40 BSFCs of most high compression fuel injected 1940's technology IO aircraft engines must be downright super-efficient.
 
If a BSFC of .47 is "sipping" fuel, the sub .40 BSFCs of most high compression fuel injected 1940's technology IO aircraft engines must be downright super-efficient.

Most of the naturally aspirated 1940s technology engines I run do in the .38-.44 range at best economy. Turbocharged engines .42-.48 or so. .47 from a Wankel at 550 HP? I call BS.
 
Automotive wankles The Mazda's put out incredible heat. Nothing in any v-8 comes close... I quickly learned that hot rod Mazda's got the 30/30 warranty. 30 feet or 30 seconds, which ever comes first. they can bake steel pipe into carbon chunks in a hurry. Dave
 
Over the years, Jim Downing's teams ran 2, 3, and 4 rotor engines in categories from GTU, through GTP light, GTO, etc. Here's an interview where he talks about a bunch of information, including the fact that their 2 rotor engines were about 330 HP, tuned for distance races..

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/downing.htm

Jim is also the person who designed, patented, and sells the HANS device, which is mandated as neck protection in many classes of racing. He developed it because he was getting neck strain driving his own cars.

Kyle I worked on an E-Production Speedster here in Atlanta for a number of years as well as a D-Prod 911 and SSGT 944 Turbo. Do you recall a guy with a Formula Atlantic car with a racing RX-7 engine purpose built for the Chimney Rock, N.C. Hillclimb?
That thing was a rocket on wheels that cornered like it was on rails.
 
If a BSFC of .47 is "sipping" fuel, the sub .40 BSFCs of most high compression fuel injected 1940's technology IO aircraft engines must be downright super-efficient.
I see what you did there. You melded my comment about engines used in automotive with the .47 regarding the test engine from the article.
 
Country Air.....you just have to be old to remember the 70's.... I had a subscription to Kitplanes when they came out and had copies of the popular mechanics that had the Jeenies Teenie when they were new. I think Ken Rands KR2 was in a build article in PM too....I didn't get my license til 89 but that was due to money and time.

Kyle,
I started out working on Formula Continental and did the SCCA runoffs at Road Atlanta in 1990. I ended up working for the indycar team belonging to the drivers father. We occasionally ran across the IMSA guys at various tracks. GTO and GTU were frequently with us at races like Long Beach and Cleveland. Downings Mazda's did pretty well and I had a few friends working for him at times. The biggest problem I remember those guys talking about was fuel.....where to put it and how to get more in the car.

Frank
 
I see what you did there. You melded my comment about engines used in automotive with the .47 regarding the test engine from the article.
Guilty as charged but not by deliberate intent.
 
On Page 28 of that same issue of Kitplanes magazine is a better article on auto engine conversions... The story even leads off with a picture of some idiot who put a V-8 in one. :hairraise::goofy::D

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com
Was that the Orenda V-8? IIRC that was a big block Chevy.

At the 2007 AOPA Expo at Palm Springs, there was a C-182 with a V-8. Of course there were promises of performance!
 
Was that the Orenda V-8? IIRC that was a big block Chevy.

At the 2007 AOPA Expo at Palm Springs, there was a C-182 with a V-8. Of course there were promises of performance!

IIRC Orenda's business plan was to convince King Air owners that they'd be better off with piston power than their expensive and thirsty turbines. For some reason nobody with turboprops wanted to switch to reciprocating engines, even if they were high tech but unproven V8s.:idea:
 
IIRC Orenda's business plan was to convince King Air owners that they'd be better off with piston power than their expensive and thirsty turbines. For some reason nobody with turboprops wanted to switch to reciprocating engines, even if they were high tech but unproven V8s.:idea:

It'd be a much easier sell on a Duke, P-Navajo, or 421 owner I'd think, because you could get a performance improvement and have an engine that will likely have an equal if not higher TBO.

With a King Air, you've got at best equal power, and you'll have a hard time meeting the TBO of a PT-6, even if your overhaul costs are significantly lower.
 
Kyle I worked on an E-Production Speedster here in Atlanta for a number of years as well as a D-Prod 911 and SSGT 944 Turbo. Do you recall a guy with a Formula Atlantic car with a racing RX-7 engine purpose built for the Chimney Rock, N.C. Hillclimb?
That thing was a rocket on wheels that cornered like it was on rails.

Don't remember that one, but if they were running a Mazda, I bet they came through Jim's shop at some point.
 
IIRC Orenda's business plan was to convince King Air owners that they'd be better off with piston power than their expensive and thirsty turbines. For some reason nobody with turboprops wanted to switch to reciprocating engines, even if they were high tech but unproven V8s.:idea:
I know there's still a Twin Commander flying with them...
 
Was that the Orenda V-8? IIRC that was a big block Chevy.

At the 2007 AOPA Expo at Palm Springs, there was a C-182 with a V-8. Of course there were promises of performance!


I think he's referring to his own Windsor Ford installation....
 
It'd be a much easier sell on a Duke, P-Navajo, or 421 owner I'd think, because you could get a performance improvement and have an engine that will likely have an equal if not higher TBO.

With a King Air, you've got at best equal power, and you'll have a hard time meeting the TBO of a PT-6, even if your overhaul costs are significantly lower.


I think at this point it'll be a hard sell as people wishing to convert will hold out for a set of diesels.
 
There was an article a couple of months ago (not sure exactly which month, I'll check tomorrow) in the EAA magazine about Mazda Wankel's. It was really good (IMO) and focused on how you can make them work in certain airplanes. It also focused on the fact that while they do work for airplane engines, it takes a lot to keep them cool.

Someday, I'd like to build a BD-4 powered by a Mazda of some sort. Could make it work for sure with a 13B or 13B with a Turbo. Not sure exactly how much power a BD-4 can handle.
 
Ted, I don't remember if they had a supercharger on their test engine in the article.

Anyway, I appreciate how this thread has evolved. I am not satisfied with a "because" response without the supporting explanation.
'

Without reading the article, if it was 550 hp from a 2 rotor 13B rotary engine, I can assure you it was blown/charged (and probably peripherally ported). (EDIT - It also probably needed a rebuild after the dyno test.. such an engine would not be very practical - imagine the cooling needed to dissipate the heat from 550 hp and the heat from its intake charge)

A "mazda" 13B rotary engine will put out about 160-180 hp with relatively stock plumbing and close to 200 if heavily modified to breath easier.

I'm a firm believer in the 13B as an aircraft engine substitute, and I was originally a skeptic. I also will readily state that the author of the article is very knowledgeable about THEORETICAL issues involving this engine to the exclusion of PRACTICAL knowledge. Unless things have changed he has not built an engine and placed it in a plane and flown it. I unsubscribed from his online editied/censored missive he calls a "newsletter" many years ago.

The rotary guys will hype the "only three moving parts" as an oversimplistic compare/contrast to piston engines with their cams, valves, rods and the sort. If you lose oil pressure, the engine is theorized to be able to limp home rather than seize outright (something about aluminum housings expanding more than iron rotors, so the engine loosens up as it heats...) I think one of our early rotorheads disproved that theory with his loss of oil and off airport landing, but it sounded good. (the loss of oil was related to the use of an A/C condenser coil as an oil cooler, not the engine itself)

The engine does appear to have good limp-home characteristics. Lose a jug on a conventional engine and it may flail itself to death or it may just toss itself overboad. Lose a rotor seal and you lose compression somewhat, but the engine still turns. It might not restart, but it will keep running.

While the core engine IS that simple (3 moving parts), and the intake and exhaust cycles are a matter of covering or uncovering ports in the housing as the rotor passes, the homebrew autoconversion crowd suffers the lack of a bolt-on package using this concept. So each is left to brew their own, with varying degrees of knowledge, workmanship and materials used to accessorize the core block. We have several forums for open flow of information, and those who are building and flying both participate in discussions of issues. Engineers, docs, lawyers, cops, airline guys, joe six packs..a good mix.

I've been drinking the rotary cool-aid for 8 years. I've seen quite a few start, build, then trade off for a lycosaurus. Primary reason is that they want to fly, not experiment, and deal with the troubleshooting involved with a truly custom engine.

One of the forum members died in a power loss, and while the NTSB glossed over the investigation, and closed the case based on the mistaken assumptions of the local mazda mechanic, who presumed that one specific modification of omission caused the engine failure. I can expand on why we collectively dismissed the "expert" as being wrong in a separate post if desired.

Our own group bought the wreck from the widow, and went over the engine and found that a faulty fuel injector (one of two used for this install) may have caused the partial loss of power that led to an off airport landing into obstructions. The power failure had been intermittent - one close call had already happened, and unfortunately Paul (not the author Paul) continued to flight test instead of immediately switch to bench testing to find the culprit.

I separated myself from the velocity/rotary project I was involved in due to concerns that I could not resolve with the other builder, that were beyond my control, just walked away. But I feel the engine concept is a good one - its smooth, compact, easily amenable to turbo/supercharging.. runs on plain auto gas..

Mistral in France was making good headway on a FWF package for 2 and 3 rotor engines that included the gearbox AND had accessory pads for governors and such.. we even bought a cast intake manifold from them a few years back when they did such a thing. I've not heard much of them lately, but it seems that everyone who does try to commercialize an auto-conversion seems to price it just as expensive as a lycoming and amortize the development over the first 200 units.. Which leaves joe six pack rolling his own in garages across the country.

As for fuel economy, that 0.47 BSFC from the article is a real number. 0.47 lbs of fuel per horsepower per hour. A turbo rotary running rich might be as high as 0.55 lbs/hp/hr. Your typical lycosaurus can get 0.40-0.47 depending on which variant, how well tuned it is, and how lean/rich you run it. GAMI's can get you down there.

So yea, the rotary is SLIGHTLY less fuel efficient than the air cooled piston engines, and I concede that.

But here's the difference. Lycoming is burning blue stuff. Rotary is burning car gas. You do the COST per horsepower per hour... annualized over the amount of hours you do a year..

And when its time to overhaul the rotary, 2-3000 hrs later, the cost of an overhaul if you do it yourself, is less than the cost of ONE jug on a lycoming. Amortize that cost over the life of your engine.. 50 cents an hour engine reserve.

If you have the money and want to get flying quickly I recommend you buy a FWF air cooled 4 banger installation, strap it up and go flight test and get it on.

If you want to try something different and have the patience and aptitude for it, I'd advocate the rotary over other auto conversions.
 
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