waco

[Let'sgoflying!]

I might need to go there, what is the deal.
Impossible if the boss is in town or??

 

[SCCutler]

No problem at all. Airspace is not closed (except the P49 circle, and that up to 18000), just restricted. Read the NOTAM.

I fly through it when it is active frequently (can't fly to Austin from Dallas w/o doing so, or significant deviation).

By far best to file IFR, but you can go VFR with VFR flight plan, squawking and talking (meaning, on Flight Following). The controllers there are very cordial and very helpful, at least to pilots who pay attention and cooperate.

If you file IFR, it is business as usual; only issue is if he is actually in transit, but even that disruption is minimal.

By the way, AF1 actually lands at TSTC (KCNW).

I have actually been in the expanded P49 space at the same time as AF1 was landing, controllers just practice good separation.

Be sure, though, that you monitor 121.5 and maintain good psotional awareness; hopefully, they won't call you, but if you hear them calling someone else, you'll know the sound of a 90-day suspension starting for someone.

Have fun!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Thanks Spike, might go to McGregor field.

 

[wsuffa]

I might need to go there, what is the deal.
Impossible if the boss is in town or??

Outer ring, yes, you can go. Just read up on the rules very carefully. If you're IFR, the process is transparent.

The inner ring, no-fly. Keep your wits about you so that you don't bust the inner ring even if ATC is allowing you in the outer ring.

I'd guess coming from the west, IFR would take you north of Austin and up V17.

I strongly recommend IFR. And don't squawk 1200, at all.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

ok, I'll check the notam
any other info resources gladly accepted. such as diagrams.

 

[wsuffa]

ok, I'll check the notam
any other info resources gladly accepted. such as diagrams.

It works about like (and about as well as) the Washington, DC ADIZ.

San Angelo & Ft. Worth FSS are pretty well versed on it, and they're good answering questions (do it now before LM terminates or moves people).

If you go IFR, file with FSS (not DUATS), avoid the no-fly zone in your route, and pick up your squawk like normal. I believe you have to stay on the squawk until you're on the ground. When departing, you must get clearance/squawk before leaving the ground, and you have to head outward, talking to ATC. You also should monitor 121.5 at all times.

That's the essentials of operating IFR - but read the NOTAM and ask FSS. I refuse to operate VFR anywhere near that TFR or the ADIZ. Too much chance of a problem.

 

[SCCutler]

I refuse to operate VFR anywhere near that TFR or the ADIZ. Too much chance of a problem.

Amen, podnuh. And Celia makes fun of me for filing IFR on clear days when headed that way while POTUS is in residence.

Meanwhile, I have a friend, a 135 ATP whose living is made completely in the cockpit, who got an unpaid 90-day vacation because he clipped the very edge of the expanded P49 while flying some hunters home from the lease, VFR.

Why even take the chance? File IFR.

By the way, if McGregor's the destination, fine, but KACT is a great field, very nice folks.

*edit*

I have listened (monitoring 121.5) while a hapless, clueless pilot blundered around in the P-space. The sound of a 709 ride happening, I think. A sad sound. An expensive sound (and those USAF AWACS folks have strong radios).

 

[gismo]

It works about like (and about as well as) the Washington, DC ADIZ.

San Angelo & Ft. Worth FSS are pretty well versed on it, and they're good answering questions (do it now before LM terminates or moves people).

If you go IFR, file with FSS (not DUATS), avoid the no-fly zone in your route, and pick up your squawk like normal. I believe you have to stay on the squawk until you're on the ground. When departing, you must get clearance/squawk before leaving the ground, and you have to head outward, talking to ATC. You also should monitor 121.5 at all times.

That's the essentials of operating IFR - but read the NOTAM and ask FSS. I refuse to operate VFR anywhere near that TFR or the ADIZ. Too much chance of a problem.

Is DUAT filing allowed if you are transiting from well outside the restricted area? Is this in the NOTAM?

 

[SCCutler]

Is DUAT filing allowed if you are transiting from well outside the restricted area? Is this in the NOTAM?

Lance, although I have not dragged the NOTAM out, I am confident that a DUATS-filed IFR plan will be just fine. Key is, be in the system. It is nothing like the Luftstalag that is the ADIZ in DC.

In point of fact, I have been specifically cleared to fly through the expanded P49 R-space without a flight plan on file at all; I was on flight following, and the Waco Approach controller asked me to confirm I was headed for Austin (I was deviating east of the big circle I had drawn on the sectional, this being before they finally started printing the circle in white); when I did so, he said I was authorized to proceed direct, which definitely took me through the restricted airspace. I asked him about that, pointing out that I had no flight plan on file, and he told me that he never knew nuttin' about VFR flight plans, but that the people who identify suspicious aircraft are them anyway, and I was by-golly OK. Wuss that I am I still demurred- what if I'd gone NORDO or whatever.

So, basically, outside the small P49 prohibited area, the only thing that changes when the president is in residence is that you have to be squawking a unique code, on a flight plan and talking to controllers. They do not even restrict operations at affected airports; I have a good friend who has a nice strip at his ranch which is quite near; he simply calls the tower at KACT (where Waco app is colocated), gets a code and up he goes.

Nothing like DC, thank God.

 

[wsuffa]

Is DUAT filing allowed if you are transiting from well outside the restricted area? Is this in the NOTAM?

DUAT filing is allowed. The NOTAM doesn't mention it.

I do call & file with FSS, though, to make sure I avoid any unpleasant surprises. And I pull the DUAT briefing, too. Seen too many folks get burned (I know a couple of folks that got dinged on P-49 a couple of years ago.)

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Guys:

It's not an issue if IFR no matter how you filed.

If VFR, you should contact approach well before you get to the restricted area if you aren't flight following already. They can assign a squawk just like when you flight follow. As Spike said, it's not the folks talkin and squawkin that are the problem--it's those that aren't.

If you want some real entertainment and what is better than any on line air safety course about TFRs; monitor 121.5 anywhere from Abilene to Austin. Coming back from San Diego last trip I heard Gray Approach (military controller for the restricted area) call several planes on this frequency. It's a real wake up call.

Best,

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

The NOTAM requires an active VFR flight plan if you want to enter VFR. Technically you're in violation, even if ATC says it's OK.

It's like the Potomac controllers that tell you that you can cancel IFR in the air but stay on squawk until the ground. The NOTAM doesn't allow that. You must cancel on the ground.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

aaahhhhh!
maybe I'll just sign on for the aopa legal representation first

 

[wsuffa]

aaahhhhh!
maybe I'll just sign on for the aopa legal representation first

If you're going into Waco, you won't get LZZ.....

Up the east side.

 

[wsuffa]

Just a minor comment, Bill. The DC FRZ allows you to cancel IFR in the air, in fact Potomac encourages it, if conditions permit. The authorization to enter the FRZ requires you to call Leesburg FSS on the ground to confirm you have landed. They'll send the search party if you don't make the second call on the ground if you were inbound IFR originally. VFR pilots are only required make the phone call on the ground since obviously they aren't cancelling IFR.

PART 4 OF 7 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON, DC. PART IV. FLIGHT PLAN PROCEDURES: A) EACH PILOT SHALL CALL LEESBURG AFSS AND PRIOR TO FILING FLIGHT PLAN SHALL IDENTIFY HIM/HER-SELF AND USE THE CONFIDENTIAL PILOT IDENTIFICATION CODE ASSIGNED TO THEM. B) LEESBURG AFSS WILL ACCEPT FLIGHT PLAN AFTER VERIFYING CODE. C) LEESBURG AFSS WILL FORWARD PILOT''S FLIGHT PLAN TO THE UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE. D) PILOTS SHALL CLOSE VFR FLIGHT PLANS WITH LESSBURG AFSS ONLY AFTER THEY ARE ON THE GROUND. E) PILOTS MAY REQUEST AND ATC MAY ACCEPT CANCELLATION OF IFR WHILE IN THE AIR. HOWEVER, PILOTS ARE REQUIRED TO REMAIN ON THEIR ASSIGNED BEACON CODE UNTIL ON THE GROUND AND REQUIRED TO CONTACT LEESBURG AFSS AFTER THEY ARE ON THE GROUND. END PART 4 OF 7 WIE UNTIL UFN

Steve, that may be true for the FRZ. However, it is not true for the governing NOTAM for the ADIZ. I know Potomac approach encourages cancellation, and that they'll tell you it's OK, but the NOTAM specifically requires cancellation on the ground. Flyer beware:

3/2126 PART 1 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON DC. THIS IS A MODIFICATION OF INFORMATION PREVIOUSLY ISSUED IN FDC NOTAM 3/1850. EFFECTIVE 0303182000 UTC (MARCH 18 AT 1500 LOCAL) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS; AND 91.139, EMERGENCY AIR TRAFFIC RULES; THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE IN EFFECT. PART I. DEFINITIONS. A. THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN AREA AIR DEFENSE IDENTIFICATION ZONE (DC ADIZ) FOR PURPOSES OF THIS NOTAM ONLY, IS THAT AREA OF AIRSPACE OVER THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH WHERE THE READY IDENTIFICATION, LOCATION, AND CONTROL OF AIRCRAFT IS REQUIRED IN THE INTERESTS OF NATIONAL SECURITY. SPECIFICALLY, THE DC ADIZ IS THAT AIRSPACE, FROM THE SURFACE TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL180, WITHIN THE OUTER BOUNDARY OF THE WASHINGTON DC TRI-AREA CLASS B AIRSPACE AREA; AND THAT ADDITIONAL AIRSPACE CONTAINED WITHIN AN AREA BOUNDED BY A LINE BEGINNING AT 383712N/0773600W; THENCE COUNTER CLOCKWISE ALONG THE 30-MILE ARC OF THE DCA VOR/DME TO 384124N/0762548W; THENCE WEST ALONG THE SOUTHERN BOUNDARY OF THE WASHINGTON DC TRI-AREA CLASS B AIRSPACE AREA TO THE POINT OF BEGINNING. END PART 1 OF 4 WIE UNTIL UFN

PART 2 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON DC. B. THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN AREA FLIGHT RESTRICTED ZONE (FRZ) IS DEFINED AS AN AREA BOUNDED BY A LINE BEGINNING AT THE WASHING- TON /DCA/ VOR/DME 300 DEGREE RADIAL AT 15 NM 385655N/0772008W THENCE CLOCKWISE ALONG THE DCA 15 NM ARC TO THE DCA 022 DEGREE RADIAL AT 15 NM 390611N/0765751W THENCE SOUTHEAST VIA A LINE DRAWN TO THE DCA 049 DEGREE RADIAL AT 14 NM 390218N/0765038W THENCE SOUTH VIA A LINE DRAWN TO THE DCA 064 DEGREE RADIAL AT 13 NM 385901N/0764832W THENCE CLOCKWISE ALONG THE DCA 13 NM ARC TO THE DCA 282 DEGREE RADIAL AT 13 NM 385214N/0771848W THENCE NORTH VIA A LINE DRAWN TO THE POINT OF BEGINNING; EXCLUDING THE AIR- SPACE WITHIN A 1 NM RADIUS OF FREEWAY AIRPORT /W00/ MITCHELLVILLE, MD, FROM THE SURFACE UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL180. THE FRZ IS WITHIN AND PART OF THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN ADIZ. PART II. THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES APPLY WITHIN THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN ADIZ: END PART 2 OF 4 WIE UNTIL UFN

PART 3 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON DC. A. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN PART II. B, BELOW, NO PERSON MAY OPERATE AN AIRCRAFT, INCLUDING ULTRALIGHT VEHICLES, CIVIL AIRCRAFT, AND PUBLIC AIRCRAFT, IN THIS ADIZ, UNLESS, IN ADDITION TO ALL OTHER APPLICABLE RULES OF 14 CFR, THE AIRCRAFT OPERATOR ENSURES THAT THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS ARE MET: 1. THE AIRCRAFT IS EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERABLE TWO-WAY RADIO CAPABLE OF COMMUNICATING WITH ATC ON APPROPRIATE RADIO FREQUENCIES; 2. THE FLIGHT CREW ESTABLISHES TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE APPROPRIATE ATC FACILITY BEFORE OPERATING IN THIS ADIZ AND THE FLIGHT CREW MAINTAINS THE CAPABILITY OF CONTINUING TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE APPROPRIATE ATC FACILITY WHILE OPERATING IN THIS ADIZ; AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN AN AIRPORT TRAFFIC PATTERN AT NON-TOWERED AIRPORTS ARE EXEMPT FROM THE ATC COMMUNICATION REQUIREMENT, PROVIDED THEY MONITOR THE AIRPORT CTAF. 3. THE FLIGHT CREW, PRIOR TO OPERATING WITHIN CLASS B, C, OR D AIRSPACE THAT IS WITHIN THIS ADIZ, RECEIVES A SEPARATE ATC CLEARANCE TO ENTER THE CLASS B, C, OR D AIRSPACE; 4. THE AIRCRAFT IS EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERATING TRANSPONDER WITH AUTOMATIC ALTITUDE REPORTING CAPABILITY AS SPECIFIED IN 14 CFR SECTION 91.215; END PART 3 OF 4 WIE UNTIL UFN

PART 4 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON DC. 5. PRIOR TO OPERATING THE AIRCRAFT IN THIS ADIZ, THE FLIGHT CREW OBTAINS A DISCRETE TRANSPONDER CODE FROM ATC; 6. THE AIRCRAFT'S TRANSPONDER CONTINUOUSLY TRANSMITS THE ATC ISSUED DISCRETE TRANSPONDER CODE WHILE THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATING IN THIS ADIZ; 7. PRIOR TO OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT IN THE DC ADIZ, PILOTS MUST FILE THEIR FLIGHT PLAN WITH AN AFSS; MUST ACTIVATE THEIR FLIGHT PLAN PRIOR TO DEPARTURE OR ENTERING THE DC ADIZ; AND CLOSE THEIR FLIGHT PLANS UPON LANDING OR LEAVING THE DC ADIZ. B. AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS BY THE U.S. MILITARY, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND AEROMEDICAL FLIGHTS ARE EXEMPT FROM THE REQUIREMENTS OF PART II A. PARAGRAPH 7. PART III. THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES APPLY WITHIN THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN FRZ. A. UNLESS SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZED BY THE FAA IN CONSULTATION WITH THE UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE AND THE TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, ALL PARTS 91, 101, 103, 105, 125, 133, 135, 137 FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN THE WASHINGTON D.C. METROPOLITAN FRZ. B. THESE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO DOD, LAW ENFORCEMENT, OR AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT WITH ATC AND ARE DISPLAYING AN ATC ASSIGNED DISCRETE TRANSPONDER BEACON CODE. END PART 4 OF 4 WIE UNTIL UFN

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave,

The NOTAM requires an active VFR flight plan if you want to enter VFR. Technically you're in violation, even if ATC says it's OK.

It's like the Potomac controllers that tell you that you can cancel IFR in the air but stay on squawk until the ground. The NOTAM doesn't allow that. You must cancel on the ground.

------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Bill:

What local flight service here says is what I conveyed: contact approach well before nearing the TFR if VFR. It may depend on the current status of the TFR. If it's not expanded, they may just want you talking to Waco in case things change. If it's expanded and you intend to fly through, that may require the flight plan. Pretty confusing since it can change in the air. If you contacted Waco before getting there, they gave you a squawk and cleared you through, I don't see how they could violate you later..., but, who knows. Better to be safe, I guess. (BTW, I know lots of folks that have done this and not had any problem.)

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

I don't see how they could violate you later..., but, who knows. Better to be safe, I guess. (BTW, I know lots of folks that have done this and not had any problem.)

Dave

Yeah, the whole NOTAM thing is messed up.

As I pointed out, there are two different NOTAMS for DC - the FRZ (or more restrictive-area NOTAM) that Steve pointed out allows air cancellations of IFR and the ADIZ (or less restrictive-area NOTAM) that clearly does not. Yet ATC practice in the DC area is to encourage air cancellations. Will you get violated? Dunno, but I don't care to find out.

Same thing with Waco. Active flight plan required, but ATC practice is otherwise. Will you get violated? Dunno, but I don't care to find out.

That's why I'm operating IFR on all trips, especially in the vicinity of Waco and the ADIZ.... and not cancelling until on the ground.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Of course, it's better to do it right to begin with than to do what others are doing and wind up in the middle of an action of some sort. Even if you get it worked out, wouldn't be fun.

But, how would a VFR guy deal with a change in the air? Guess he could call FSS and file if not already filed. If you're filed and change your destination, would you have to call FSS and amend your VFR destination?? That'd be interesting. Another factor is there is a recording here in Dallas when you call FSS that says to contact Waco Approach before entering the area--doesn't say to file a VFR flight plan before departing.

All this inconsistancy has to be causing some of the problems. From a practical standpoint, I can see where there would be times filing a VFR flight plan before departing (on the ground) could be an issue. Heck, if you can file in the air, why not when calling approach? They can accept you (like a pop up IFR) or tell you to file with FSS.
Confusing isn't it??!!

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Yes, Dave, I agree. It's a pain in the you-know-what.

'Course since the TSa uses the meat-cleaver approach, if they went with one clear set of rules, it would undoubtedly be the most draconian.

sigh.