W80 vs W100

[Dan Thomas]

Oleic acid is an 18 carbon carboxylic acid- I don't suppose you'd believe me if I told you it acted as a wax. The only reason it's soluble at all is because of the ammonia.

http://www.flitz.com/images/document/MSDS_Flitz Polish_PASTE.pdf

Isn't oleic acid what gives Crayola crayons their classic odor? And we give them to children to play with! Acid!

Vinegar is acetic acid. 5%. We put it on our food. Phosphoric acid is found in cola drinks; we drink that, too, though it's known to cause health issues if too much is consumed.

I really can't figure out who is having so much trouble with Aeroshell 15W50 in Lycomings. Certainly the Aviation Consumer guys have never mentioned it. We sure never did, and flight school airplanes get abused much. The corrosion I have seen was in engines that were flown infrequently and on short flights (including in my own A-65, and that was before I ever used 15W50m in it). Under such conditions blowby water isn't boiled off and it has lots of time to form acids in the case, and those are the acids that eat the engine. The hydrogen and oxygen from water molecules react with sulfur, chlorine and nitrogen compounds in the oil to form sulfuric, hydrochloric and nitric acids, as I understand it. The dissimilar metals of the engine are a catalyst or offer electrolytic stimulation of some sort to the formation of nasty compounds.

Dan

 

[Ted]

I really can't figure out who is having so much trouble with Aeroshell 15W50 in Lycomings.

As far as I know, nobody.

 

[Tom-D]

As far as I know, nobody.

My 2 Lycoming operators don't.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Fixed That for you ? apparently you didn't read the hazards warning I linked.

Tom- even sea sand is really bad for your health. It 's found on many beaches and children are allowed to play in it. It's a cancer hazard-
Link: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09890.htm

My point is that nearly everything has some level of toxicity or irritation if not used properly. That's why we wear protective clothing (gloves, glasses, etc. when working with many compounds. Just because it is toxic to us or an irritant doesn't mean it is bad for an engine. It's just bad for people.

I do know when a acid is used to modify any substance it will be a corrosive by product, that is basic high school chemistry, and the bases for every metal polish on the market. (grit/cleaner makes shiney metal) and my theory of why we have so much corrosion in engines using aeroshell.

When you say acids and bases are the same thing, you do lose credibility, and it does nothing to promote your theory.

When you say that any substance modified by an acid is corrosive, that statement is flat-out wrong too and does nothing to help your theory.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Tom- even sea sand is really bad for your health. It 's found on many beaches and children are allowed to play in it. It's a cancer hazard-
Link: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09890.htm

My point is that nearly everything has some level of toxicity or irritation if not used properly. That's why we wear protective clothing (gloves, glasses, etc. when working with many compounds. Just because it is toxic to us or an irritant doesn't mean it is bad for an engine. It's just bad for people.


When you say acids and bases are the same thing, you do lose credibility, and it does nothing to promote your theory.

When you say that any substance modified by an acid is corrosive, that statement is flat-out wrong too and does nothing to help your theory.

I think he meant to spell it "basis."
:wink2:

 

[Tom-D]

Tom- even sea sand is really bad for your health. It 's found on many beaches and children are allowed to play in it. It's a cancer hazard-
Link: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09890.htm

My point is that nearly everything has some level of toxicity or irritation if not used properly. That's why we wear protective clothing (gloves, glasses, etc. when working with many compounds. Just because it is toxic to us or an irritant doesn't mean it is bad for an engine. It's just bad for people.


When you say acids and bases are the same thing, you do lose credibility, and it does nothing to promote your theory.

When you say that any substance modified by an acid is corrosive, that statement is flat-out wrong too and does nothing to help your theory.

IOWs you are saying TCP is not harmful to us, and is great oil to be used in all engines with out trouble.

I feel you are wrong based upon my experiences with it.

Aeroshell 15W50 is an EP oil using TCP and a very few Lycoming engines require you comply with the AD that requires the additive, So it is my contention that over dosing your engine costs you more and does nothing except expose every thing that comes in contact with it to need less health hazards.

As far as the acidity of the oil is still a concern to me because every engine I tear down that uses it, has corrosion problems like the one pictured. Just because the manufacturing methods for nylon aren't corrosive doesn't mean the manufacturing methods for TCP aren't.

 

[Tom-D]

I think he meant to spell it "basis."
:wink2:

Thanks for catching that.

 

[Dan Thomas]

As I noted before, the MSDS for the Lyc snake oil doesn't list TCP as a component. LW-16702 contains t-Butylphenyl diphenyl)phosphate, Bis(t-butylphenyl)phenyl phosphate, Tri(t-butylphenyl) phosphate, and Triphenyl phosphate, as copied directly from the MSDS. Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) shows up nowhere in the document, so the hazards associated with TCP do not apply to Aeroshell 15W50 or LW-16702.

I don't know if the "cresyl" part of tricresyl phosphate (TCP) has anything to do with cresylic acid, but if it does, I would be careful. I used to use cresylic acid as a paint stripper and carbon dissolver in parts-cleaning tanks back in the old days. Had to keep four inches of water on the top (the acid was pretty heavy and didn't mix with the water) just to keep the fumes from knocking you out. Terrible stuff. But again, it's not in Aeroshell. Sure would have a clean engine if it did. It didn't dissolve aluminum or zinc or iron, either. Parts just got really clean.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

As I noted before, the MSDS for the Lyc snake oil doesn't list TCP as a component. LW-16702 contains t-Butylphenyl diphenyl)phosphate, Bis(t-butylphenyl)phenyl phosphate, Tri(t-butylphenyl) phosphate, and Triphenyl phosphate, as copied directly from the MSDS. Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) shows up nowhere in the document, so the hazards associated with TCP do not apply to Aeroshell 15W50 or LW-16702.

I don't know if the "cresyl" part of tricresyl phosphate (TCP) has anything to do with cresylic acid, but if it does, I would be careful. I used to use cresylic acid as a paint stripper and carbon dissolver in parts-cleaning tanks back in the old days. Had to keep four inches of water on the top (the acid was pretty heavy and didn't mix with the water) just to keep the fumes from knocking you out. Terrible stuff. But again, it's not in Aeroshell. Sure would have a clean engine if it did. It didn't dissolve aluminum or zinc or iron, either. Parts just got really clean.

Dan

Well, I guess that is the end of this thread, If they have taken it out like all other brands have we are good to go……..>

but:

Why do the Contental engines still fail starter clutches when using it, when no other EP oils cause this problem?

no,,,,,,, nothing has changed recently.

edit. maybe it has,,,,, I have no customers using it and no starter problems either. my only two Lycoming customers have 320-E2D and a 0-235 both on phillips 20W50 with filters.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

IOWs you are saying TCP is not harmful to us, and is great oil to be used in all engines with out trouble.

I feel you are wrong based upon my experiences with it.

Nope. I never said that. I only said that the hazard information on MSDS only applied to people (sometimes to other critters if it is a pesticide, fertilizer, or similar compound)

As far as the acidity of the oil is still a concern to me because every engine I tear down that uses it, has corrosion problems like the one pictured. Just because the manufacturing methods for nylon aren't corrosive doesn't mean the manufacturing methods for TCP aren't.

Tom- you still don't get it. The manufacturing methods don't make a compound corrosive- only the compound itself is corrosive, or not corrosive. I can make water from reacting sodium hydroxide with hydrochloric acid, and distill the resulting water from the mixture. Sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid are both nasty to living tissue- does that mean the resulting water is toxic and nasty?

If TCP is as corrosive as you claim, it is only because it is TCP, not because of the precursor chemicals or method to produce the compound.

 

[Tom-D]

If TCP is as corrosive as you claim, it is only because it is TCP, not because of the precursor chemicals or method to produce the compound.

does it really matter how it was formed, it sure ain't nylon.? will it still corrode? It makes little difference when your engine starts corroding.

note the post above.

I'm outta here, because this is beginning to remind me of which whiskey is best for you.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

does it really matter how it was formed, it sure ain't nylon.? will it still corrode? It makes little difference when your engine starts corroding.

note the post above.

I'm outta here, because this is beginning to remind me of which whiskey is best for you.

Tom you were the one that said that the manufacturing methods mattered. See the bolded statement below that you made.

As far as the acidity of the oil is still a concern to me because every engine I tear down that uses it, has corrosion problems like the one pictured. Just because the manufacturing methods for nylon aren't corrosive doesn't mean the manufacturing methods for TCP aren't.

The good news is you finally admitted it doesn't matter how it was formed.

Actually Wikipedia claims organophosphates, of which TCP is one, is a corrosion inhibitor.

Oil-soluble organophosphates, with or without zinc, have excellent high-pressure and antiwear properties, and provide corrosion protection especially in presence of chlorinated hydrocarbons. ZDDP starts decomposing at 130-170 °C, while the activation temperature of TCP typically exceeds 200 °C. Their reaction products form a chemically bonded lubricating film on the surfaces.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EP_additive )

Here's another link claiming organophosphates are used for corrosion protection http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/plasticizer/TRICRESYL PHOSPHATE.htm

 

[N801BH]

Dear Ron and Tom,

I would greatly appreciate it if you don't have arguments about what I think. While I appreciate the sentiment, I am capable of vocalizing my thoughts quite plainly (or typing them, as the case may be).

I would furthermore appreciate it if you do not openly discuss my employment, seeing as I do not discuss it openly myself (other than Cloud Nine and DuPuis Aviation, LLC).

I thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Love,

-Ted

I guess I better chime in here..

1- In an earlier life I owned and ran a internal engine R&D company... Personally I have blown up more motors on a dyno on purpose then all you guys have worn out by accident....

2- I have spoken to Ted and he is the REAL deal and understands the "complete" dynamics of how a piston engine lives and dies..

3. I have personally seen BS like no ones business...

One case in mind.....

I had a film production crew and a well known oil additive promoter show up at my door 20+ years ago wanting me to use my good name to verify their bogus claim.......

Their claim was they could add their additive and then drain the oil out of a high output racing engine, run it at full throttle and it would not fail because of of lack of lubrication.... I bet you all have seen the late night infomercial on that dog and pony show..... As a engine builder I was VERY leary of their claim and asked some pretty indepth questions......

They admitted they built a "ringer" engine to show off their unbelievable BS. To the tune of a 50,000+ $ show engine.. This motor was built with roller main bearings, roller rod bearings, roller cam bearings, roller lifters and needle bearings anywhere there was metal to metal contact. They even used spray on coatings for the piston skirts to reduce friction. This trick allowed them to show on video an engine running at full output on a dyno with the drain plug out and no oil in the motor not eating itself alive during the 30 second run.... All a full roller motor needs is a light film of oil for protection in the short term. What they didn't say on the infomercial was this not a "normal" engine....... Once I figured out their motive I promptly kicked them off my property..... They then went shopping for another dyno shop / engine builder who would buy into their smoke screen... In fact they did... and you all probably saw that infomercial for a few months... till they got shut down for false advertising..

Moral of the story is..........................................

If it is too good to be true... it is most often BS.

Ps. Ted has probably killed more engines on purpose then 99.7 % of the rest of you reading this and he has seen the " good, bad and ugly" of snake oil and other 'gotta have' stuff....:wink2::wink2: IMHO

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com