VOR-VOR or GPS Direct

[Jaybird180]

Is there a good reason to fly VOR-VOR anymore, other than that it's fun?

Given both equipment in a plane in what situations would you choose one over the other?

 

[TMetzinger]

When I'm IFR, I often get airway routing (here in the eastern seaboard) but even then I fly using the GPS. VFR, I use pilotage or GPS.

I think I haven't manually listened to a VOR ident code (since G1000 does it for me) in over a year.

 

[EdFred]

You need a 5th choice: It depends.

 

[rottydaddy]

I have used VORs most often to support a direct route, by using radials and sometimes DME to create waypoints, rather than flying from station to station.

 

[gismo]

When I'm IFR, I often get airway routing (here in the eastern seaboard) but even then I fly using the GPS. VFR, I use pilotage or GPS.

I think I haven't manually listened to a VOR ident code (since G1000 does it for me) in over a year.

Pretty much the same here. I file and fly nearly direct on most flights in the midwest but in the mountains or out east I'm much more likely to be on an airway. Even on "direct" flights I usually have a small dogleg or two in the plan to avoid certain airspace. I use my VOR receiver so seldom I generally don't do the 30 day checks on them anymore.

 

[Bob Noel]

Is there a good reason to fly VOR-VOR anymore, other than that it's fun?

When you haven't poured mucho $$$$ into a GPS installation.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I don't use either.

 

[Gary F]

I often include one or more VORs as way-points on longer cross country trips, especially if I need to get around a MOA or restricted area. I read somewhere that ATC can have problems with long direct routes and it can be helpful to include some ATC defined objects in the route. I would like some guidance from one of the controllers here.

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/187682-1.html

 

[Baron2PG]

I plan a trip with VORs as much as possible and as a function of economics; I don't necessarily use airways as the GNS530 doesn't show them anyway. Once enroute I'll often skip multiple VORs and 'straighten' my route by asking for direct or I simply file direct but have the 'zig zag' VOR flight plan on my knee board for backup and trip monitoring.

I like having the intermediate VOR waypoints for three reasons:
1) Good entertainment and it keeps the barnacles from forming on my #2 KX-155/VOR-DME and my ability to interpret the CDI.
2) They make nice waypoints for making sure you're on track with fuel and time
3) If the GPS craps out you can easily switch to VOR mode and keep on trucking. This has happen to me twice in the past 5 years.

 

[zaitcev]

I have used VORs most often to support a direct route, by using radials and sometimes DME to create waypoints, rather than flying from station to station.

I do the the same. It's quie amazing how good the estimations of winds aloft are. If I keep the precomputed course and power setting, I always arrive to the waypoint at about the predicted time. Then, I get radials from two VORs, or even just one if it intersects a landscape feaure like a major river.

I noticed that IFR students tend to plan routes intersection to intersection and VOR to VOR, but I'm a VFR pilot. I just put the plotter to sectional and draw a line as I like it. Of course I have to call the FSS and ask if any restricted areas are closed (we have plenty around with R-5107 and R-5111 being most annoying).

 

[GMascelli]

IFR gets you airway routing here in the east as Tim previously mentioned. When VFR I'll use the VOR to VOR if applicable and have the GPS dialed in as my back up for position/distance calls.

Tell me, what is this GPS direct you speak of. :wink2:

 

[EdFred]

IFR gets you airway routing here in the east as Tim previously mentioned. When VFR I'll use the VOR to VOR if applicable and have the GPS dialed in as my back up for position/distance calls.

Tell me, what is this GPS direct you speak of. :wink2:

Get west of the Appys Gary!

 

[jesse]

Come to the midwest. I've never received anything but "cleared as filed" with a direct routing.

 

[tonycondon]

i've only ever filed vor to vor when i don't have an IFR GPS on board. although sometimes i would file NDB to NDB...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Mixture for me.

VFR - with GPS, VORs are pretty much irrelevant. They were a bit more helpful for tracking position even on a direct flight before GPS, but since, there's not much in the way of added situational awareness.

IFR - Since I switch in and out of airplanes with and without IFR certified GPS and, in many cases, airways and VOR-based SIDs and STARs are the best bet in terms of what the actual clearances might be, I continue to tune in VORs, whether or not I have a direct GPS routing.

 

[nddons]

I often include one or more VORs as way-points on longer cross country trips, especially if I need to get around a MOA or restricted area. I read somewhere that ATC can have problems with long direct routes and it can be helpful to include some ATC defined objects in the route. I would like some guidance from one of the controllers here.

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/187682-1.html

I was wondering about that myself. I'm planning a trip down to Mississippi, and shared my flight plan with my CFII to see what he thought. My route was T265 around Chicago and then airways to the south. He asked why not T265 direct Starkville, MS? I thought that was a LONG way for a direct routing, but he said that that is how most experienced folks would file for that trip.

 

[Gary F]

I was wondering about that myself. I'm planning a trip down to Mississippi, and shared my flight plan with my CFII to see what he thought. My route was T265 around Chicago and then airways to the south. He asked why not T265 direct Starkville, MS? I thought that was a LONG way for a direct routing, but he said that that is how most experienced folks would file for that trip.

I tried filing direct from KSAW in Upper Michigan to KARR near Chicago. They have always amended my clearance after I pass Green Bay direct to the West Bend VOR where they vector me to KARR. I will start filing KSAW direct BJB direct KARR and expect vectors from BJB to Aurora.

 

[deltafox]

I have found that the VOR is fun to play with when going direct, but seldom used for my primary navigation.

 

[azure]

For me, it all depends. Typically GPS direct for flights instate, but even then I usually have both navs tuned to a VOR for the RMI indications on the Sandel, just as a backup and for situational awareness (plus it makes it easier to do my 30-day VOR check). To plot a course that misses some airspace I'm trying to avoid, I use whatever is convenient, often VORs or intersections, though always as GPS waypoints, rarely to never using the nav receiver as primary. If a VOR though, one of the navs will be tuned to it as well. Sometimes I do fly the airways too, and in unfamiliar or rugged country I tend to do that, and let the MEA do the work of ensuring obstacle clearance and signal reception for the VORs shown on my Sandel.

 

[taters]

Come to the midwest. I've never received anything but "cleared as filed" with a direct routing.

come to the west coast and its exactly the opposite.

 

[Fearless Tower]

come to the west coast and its exactly the opposite.

No kidding. Part of the problem out west is that there are so many MOAs in the way of direct routing. I always get airway routing for my initial clearance even if I'm /G. Every once in a while I get an amended direct for a portion of the flight, but it always starts out on airways.

 

[denverpilot]

Come to the midwest. I've never received anything but "cleared as filed" with a direct routing.

I thought Nebraska was too far West to be called "Midwest"?

 

[jesse]

I thought Nebraska was too far West to be called "Midwest"?

Not so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States

 

[denverpilot]

I think they put N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas in that group just to avoid calling you guys the "fly-over" States.

 

[John Collins]

I generally fly GPS direct on short flights. For longer flights that traverse more than one ATC center, I will pick VOR's as waypoints along the route in each sector or as needed to route around airspace. I don't actually use the VOR receivers to do the navigation and wouldn't unless the GPS were to fail, but I will tune them and check bearings on the VOR and distances with the DME. I haven't flown an ILS in years, other than for practice. Essentially all of my navigating for cross country is via the GPS and approaches are all of the GPS WAAS variety. The only other use I make of VOR's is to do the 30 day check, usually by comparing two bearings against one another. I really don't have to do this as my GNS530W GPS can be used for sole means of IFR navigation, but it is such a small amount of effort, if I ever need to use them on an IFR flight, it will be legal to do so.

 

[taters]

I will fly direct GPS when I can do it. but he VOR is used

If I cant really back up the course with a VOR... I will usually keep track of my bearing to the VOR's that matter along the way...it comes in handy once in a while...also why RMI's are the best nav instrument in the panel if you have one

 

[tspear]

I file using airways and way points; in the DC area if you do not they will give you a long list of waypoints when you get your clearance. But once you are up in the air, a good portion of the time they will give you directs once away from the class B/C air space. (fltplan.com does a good job of predicting what are the preferred waypoints and will even update your plan based on what the ATC HOST computers will state will be the amended plan.)

I only use GPS at this point, although I still do and record the VOR check. Mostly because I do a practice ILS approach at least once a month and have to use it a few times based on weather.

Tim

 

[EdFred]

I've filed direct for a 1000nm flight and was cleared as filed, and I was spanned across many sectors. Chicago, Indy, Atlanta, and Jacksonville.

 

[GeorgeC]

I'd be inclined to use both for reasons of redundancy, although one could make the counterargument that marginally more traffic might be encountered on airways and at intersections.

Is there a good reason to fly VOR-VOR anymore, other than that it's fun?

Given both equipment in a plane in what situations would you choose one over the other?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Come to the midwest. I've never received anything but "cleared as filed" with a direct routing.

I have, but only when Chicago is in the way. Other than that, it's direct everywhere. I've never been put on an airway west of Pennsylvania.

i've only ever filed vor to vor when i don't have an IFR GPS on board. although sometimes i would file NDB to NDB...

You CFII's are nuts. Mine once made me do an IFR cross country NDB to NDB with NDB approaches and an NDB hold.

I still never really locked in on NDB navigation until I flew the Seneca, which has both an HSI and an NDB. Put the HSI course pointer on the course to the NDB and make the needles look the same.

 

[tonycondon]

I have, but only when Chicago is in the way. Other than that, it's direct everywhere. I've never been put on an airway west of Pennsylvania.



You CFII's are nuts. Mine once made me do an IFR cross country NDB to NDB with NDB approaches and an NDB hold.

I still never really locked in on NDB navigation until I flew the Seneca, which has both an HSI and an NDB. Put the HSI course pointer on the course to the NDB and make the needles look the same.

i second your comment on Chicago.

There are a lot of little airports in iowa with NDBs on the field, although i notice that more and more are getting decommissioned without a GPS the only practical way to navigate IFR to many of them is NDB to NDB.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

i second your comment on Chicago.

There are a lot of little airports in iowa with NDBs on the field, although i notice that more and more are getting decommissioned without a GPS the only practical way to navigate IFR to many of them is NDB to NDB.

I think at least 2 of the 3 NDB's I used on that cross country are dead now.

Of course, I'm probably one of very few pilots, especially of the under-40 crowd, who have filed and flown an NDB airway. It wasn't with an actual NDB, it was with a G1000, but still...

When I called FSS and filed a flight plan and said "Blue 9" the specialist said "Huh? What's that? Well, uh, the computer took it, so OK I guess..."

 

[Ted]

It depends on what the situation calls for.

I file (and fly) GPS direct whenever I can. However, a lot of times I can't due to airspace. When you're flying on the coasts, forget about getting it most places you go.

However, I do still follow along with VORs and NDBs to check my position and in case the GPS craps out. The other day I was using the ADF in the Navajo to check my position flying home. ADFs work pretty nicely at 14,000 ft.

 

[gismo]

i second your comment on Chicago.

There are a lot of little airports in iowa with NDBs on the field, although i notice that more and more are getting decommissioned without a GPS the only practical way to navigate IFR to many of them is NDB to NDB.

IME many if not most of those on field NDBs are extremely weak providing little more than 5-10 nm range, especially when the ground is real dry.

 

[tonycondon]

IME many if not most of those on field NDBs are extremely weak providing little more than 5-10 nm range, especially when the ground is real dry.

the few flights i did were hopping between airports ~20 miles apart. we would go two or three NDBs down the highway, shoot an approach, and come back.

 

[Everskyward]

Here's an NDB which is a fix on a high altitude airway. I was a little confused when I saw it the first time.

 

[Skip Miller]

I had not flown vor - vor in a long time, so I decided to do so on a 250 mile trip. Less than 40 miles from home, I noticed a red light and the oil pressure was about 10 lbs. Oops! I made a precautionary landing at KPOU and later learned that the wire to the pressure sensor was loose.

That will teach me to do this training stuff.....

-Skip

 

[gismo]

AFaIK, NDBs are still used for navigation in many countries outside the US including Mexico.

Here's an NDB which is a fix on a high altitude airway. I was a little confused when I saw it the first time.

 

[flyersfan31]

I got cleared direct a few miles from Austin TX to Harrisburg, PA. The controller was apologetic, he said it was the best he could do for me, and he was obviously sincere.

Blew my mind.

I'm used to flying where, when, and whatever altitude ATC sez. Period. No negotiating. No nuttin'.

It's fun to get out of the Northeast every so often to see how the other folks live!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's fun to get out of the Northeast every so often to see how the other folks live!

The "as filed" in my clearance in the video I posted in this thread was direct.

Outside of the east coast, I've only not gotten "cleared as filed" twice - Both times involved Chicago. (Once was filed by my CFII, once for some reason KELSI just wasn't good enough...)