Visibility - 10SM

skidoo

skidoo

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skidoo
In the last few days, visibility in my area has dropped to just over 10sm. I feel claustrophobic and don't like it much. I guess I have been spoiled with 50+ sm visibility, but it is never reported other than 10. So, I am wondering who regularly flies VFR with visibility between 5 and 10 sm and feels comfortable with that?
 
In Montana you are spoiled. In the eastern half of the country, especially in summer, visibility is often significantly more limited. I know what you mean about it feeling claustrophobic. I think it takes some more getting used to, and probably also more vigilence looking out the window. But 10 sm visibility is still plenty. If you aren't comfortable with it, probably not a bad idea to figure out how to do so. A good CFI may be able to help.

I found I was much more comfortable in low VFR conditions once I got my instrument rating. Other interesting thing - these days I'm more comfortable in a cloud than out of one.
 
It really is all what you get used to seeing... and get comfortable with. Go and fly today if you can in the 10 miles of vis that you have there. In an area that you are familiar with. Take a CFI or even a friend and have fun with it. And then next time, go fly in slightly less vis, like between 5 and 7 miles. And after that, you can move to the Midwest and spend the summer SWEARING that you have that 3 miles of vis in the haze... and that is the story you are stickin' to! :crazy:

JK... and having an IR (even training for the rating) does help with that claustophobic feeling. Vis less than 5 miles doesn't thrill me either, but living where I do, it's a necessary evil to deal with.
 
10SM is CAVU in my book. Flying with 3-5 can be the norm in places with humidity. I can understand that it feel different and claustrophobic for you though. I am not feeling any real sympathy for you! ;)

Ya you get comfortable in that type of vis, but that comfort should not translate to laziness in your sky scan nor using all of the tools available to you such as FF.
 
skidoo said:
In the last few days, visibility in my area has dropped to just over 10sm. I feel claustrophobic and don't like it much. I guess I have been spoiled with 50+ sm visibility, but it is never reported other than 10.
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Ten miles is the highest an ASOS/AWOS can report.

So, I am wondering who regularly flies VFR with visibility between 5 and 10 sm and feels comfortable with that?
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I do, but there's a world of difference between 5 miles visibility in an Aeronca 7AC and a Bonanza, Cirrus, 310, etc.
 
A few years back when we had the POA fly-in at Gaston's the Haze was so bad it was almost IFR conditions. You could see the ground just fine, but it was very questionable side ways. You had to get over 6500' to get above it.
 
While we're all completely sick jealous of your normal viz in Montana, and have no sympathy for your misty/hazy day - I do know first hand what you're talking about with the claustrophobic feeling. I grew up in the Atlanta area but didn't learn how to fly until I moved to the Chesapeake Bay area. Our normal days here are an actual 10+, some better, some worse. A few times a year you can see 100 miles. When I fly down to visit my buds in Atlanta, my reaction is always how do you guys ever seen anything out the window here? My experience has been that a great day in Atlanta is 10 miles when 3 - 5 being way more normal than not.

My limit for how low the viz can be for a no-go depends upon what I'm trying to do. If I'm scud running under a low deck then I like at least several miles if not 10+. If I'm crossing the Chesapeake or Delaware Bay, you can't see anything out the window but gray unless you've got 5+ miles. I crossed the Delaware bay a few months ago where I couldn't see anything in front of me as I went out over it and had to look back over my shoulder to see the shore line I just left to keep me oriented until I could pick out a boat in the water ahead, and then finally the shore line on the opposite side. All perfectly legal VFR but certainly not for those that should have higher minimums. I'd say that was perfectly safe also because if the shore behind me had started getting fuzzy before I had anything in front of me then I would have turned around without a moments hesitation. If I was flying where there are rocks at my altitude, I never would have done that. It's all what you're used to managing and what you're trying to do.
 
wsuffa said:
6 - 10 ?!? That's CAVU in many places!
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Yeah, but that 6SM forward slant visibility looks a lot worse through the southern haze than the 6SM straight up reported by the AWOS. The layer we get has a brownish tint to it, too. :eek:
 
rpadula said:
Yeah, but that 6SM forward slant visibility looks a lot worse through the southern haze than the 6SM straight up reported by the AWOS. The layer we get has a brownish tint to it, too. :eek:
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Are you in Houston or SoCal? :wink2:
 
KBJC Jeff-uh Metro was reporting 70SM vis yesterday. Not sure how accurate that was, as I really didn't start looking for the airport as I turned south again at Cheyenne ... I did note that I could see it from Ft. Collins ... as well as Pikes Peak in the background.
 
I know exactly what you mean. Way back before I got my PP I had only flown in 20sm+ vis cause it generally tended to be either 20+ or low overcast during my time as a student. On one of my first flights post checkride I went up in 5 - 10 sm vis and was rather scared of getting a little lost and busting airspace.

I'd gotten into the habit of using landmarks 30+ miles away (mainly mountain peaks) for pilotage and found "pure" DR between checkpoints to be unnerving back then. Within the LA area I'm not a fan of "dodge the JetBlue" in <5SM vis, but I'm ok with 5SM & 10 SM in less complecated skies.
Perhaps it is the nav aspect that bothers you?
 
gkainz said:
KBJC Jeff-uh Metro was reporting 70SM vis yesterday. Not sure how accurate that was, as I really didn't start looking for the airport as I turned south again at Cheyenne ... I did note that I could see it from Ft. Collins ... as well as Pikes Peak in the background.
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I think visibility of Pikes Peak is the standard measure for vis in the Denver area. If they can see the peak then vis is at least 70 miles...
 
As others have said, it just depends on what you are used to.
Flying in 5 here in MO is just a normal summer day and don't even really think about it.
When I went out west and flew and saw 50 I was in the HOLY COW, YOU CAN SEE FOREVER. LOL
Grab a CFI and go up. After a couple of times of flying "less than 50" you will be fine I am sure.
 
In the Puget Sound area, we can sometimes see Mount Rainier, 80 miles away...at other times, we wait for the visibility to get up to more than three miles before even thinking of going VFR. If we didn't fly in visibilities of less than 10 miles we would never go anywhere.

Bob Gardner
 
During initial flight training the typical FSS briefing included the phrase "Clear and 7 statewide".

10SM is a clear day around here.
 
I was planning to fly to payne field near Everett, WA this weekend for a family member wedding, but I have made a No-Go decision. I'm not yet comfortable the variable weather there. I may wait to go there until I get my IR. I originally learned (1970's) on the southern California coast where visibility always seemed low, flew when it rained, and even did some special VFR flights. I did a cross country as PIC, from Memphis to Ark in 1975 and felt like it was too easy to get lost in the haze. Since then, I have got used to the clear skies. My concern this week was not seeing the potential thunderstorms through the haze, even though I have the NexRad weather. With the G1000, it just seems too easy to go through stuff you can't see.
 
Often there's quite a difference between in flight visibility and visibility as reported on the ground. And the MVFR side of VFR vis can be bad enough that you don't have a horizon even over open farmlands if you're more than about 2000 AGL. Earlier this spring I flew to a favorite $100 pizza spot (3DA) in haze so thick that another pilot remarked as I was departing the pattern that it was "almost IFR out here". He wasn't kidding, though the AWOS at KVLL was reporting 7SM. At 3000 MSL (ground is 700-1000) you could only see vertically down and maybe 15-20 degrees in any direction. My route takes me through Flint's Class C airspace and when I checked in with Approach, I asked them the reported visibility as I was getting concerned that the field would go IFR. But it was still being reported as 7. I would have estimated my in-flight visibility at about 4SM. I had no usable horizon and was on the gauges except to scan for traffic. I was definitely not comfortable since I know how crowded that airspace can get, and I was spending too much time head down to control the plane.

And no, 3DA has no IAP. I only saw the field when I was nearly on top of it, even at 1000 AGL. That's actually not unusual coming from that direction because the field is hard to spot. But I wouldn't have seen any traffic either until they were pretty close, and I'm not sure but I think that there are NORDO planes (as in, ultralights without radios) flying out of there. I wasn't comfortable with that either, though FNT APP cut me loose only a couple of miles out with "no observed traffic between you and Dalton".

I kicked myself later for not submitting a PIREP. There were probably a lot of pilots out there who were fooled by the METARs. It also made me rethink my minimums, and that flight today would have been a no-go even with ADS-B and all the other fancy stuff in my plane.
 
Well, I'm certainly used to incredible vis out here in W. Texas - over 30 easy nearly all the time- sometimes 100 - and when it isn't like that then the Wx is bad enough I'm not flying. I flew to Atlanta GA a few years ago and when I crossed the Miss. River and got into haze where you could only have slant vis and very little forward vis I thought it must surely be IFR and I almost doubled back and landed. I called flight watch for an update and he explained to me that "No, it's VFR it's just different." I was very glad that I had my GPS available because I doubt I could have just used pilotage. And, when I was landing at Fayette Alabama the FBO guy warned me about the wind! It was 8 which apparently for around there is a fair amount. Shoot, out here 8 hardly counts - the norm is 14G20
Like everyone has said.... it's all what you get used to.
 
Clark1961 said:
I think visibility of Pikes Peak is the standard measure for vis in the Denver area. If they can see the peak then vis is at least 70 miles...
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bobmrg said:
In the Puget Sound area, we can sometimes see Mount Rainier, 80 miles away...at other times, we wait for the visibility to get up to more than three miles before even thinking of going VFR. If we didn't fly in visibilities of less than 10 miles we would never go anywhere.

Bob Gardner
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Mt. Rainier is about 55 miles from my house. If I can see it, I know there will be no problems. We also tend to fly in lower ceiling conditions than folks in LA think prudent. At least that was what a briefer on SEA Radio said a few years ago when I replied "Another beautiful VFR day in western Washington." after he gave me a bunch of 3000 to 5000 foot ceilings between where I was in the Columbia River gorge and OLM. Heck, none of that was even MVFR. But, he was new to our part of the world after doing the same job for 14 years in the LA area. :D
 
It is all relative... VFR is see and avoid... If we have adequate altitude from the ground obstacles what else do we need to see and avoid - most likely airplanes, right? How far away can we see an airplane in viz at ten miles? Lets make that airplane a 1960's Comanche in pale green and ivory paint... How far can we see it? It sure as heck isn't ten miles... So the viz being limited to ten miles is not a limitation - except in our minds...

denny-o
 
Reported as 10 (!). This is looking mostly South/SW over north-central Indiana.
Not a cloud for 30 miles... but damn, couldn't see much of anything in that mess.

Regards,

Mike

P7080818.JPG
 
On a trip back from Wisconsin in the early days my own personal visibility alarm started blaring, and I found a nice little airport at which to land. I asked when they expected the visibility to improve, and they said, "oh, around about October" (it was July at the time).

It was pointed out to me that puttering along in my little 150 I wasn't going to run into anything that quickly, and I soon departed and had an uneventful flight home.
 
skidoo said:
In the last few days, visibility in my area has dropped to just over 10sm. I feel claustrophobic and don't like it much. I guess I have been spoiled with 50+ sm visibility, but it is never reported other than 10. So, I am wondering who regularly flies VFR with visibility between 5 and 10 sm and feels comfortable with that?
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Normal VFR weather in the Southeast here. I remember during my training, my first solo limit was 10nm, than 7, finally 5 before it was over.
 
The Seattle area is expecting clouds this Sunday for the Blue Angels show. The CO of the Blues said on TV that if they have a 1000 foot ceiling and three miles visibility, they have a "flat show" that they will put on. Three miles!!! Gives me the willies just to think about it.

Bob Gardner
 
I guess my problem with 3 miles visibility is that I may have only about a minute to make a decision once something is seen, but it is, say a cloud that isn't seen until being in it that concerns me. I suppose that slowing down to say 80 knots to give about two minutes. But, that is still not much time...
 
Now thats funny....10 miles vis.....

Last week it was 800 feet off the water at 160knots, 3 miles....yummy
 
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skidoo said:
I guess my problem with 3 miles visibility is that I may have only about a minute to make a decision once something is seen, but it is, say a cloud that isn't seen until being in it that concerns me. I suppose that slowing down to say 80 knots to give about two minutes. But, that is still not much time...
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A minute is PLENTY of time. Reminds me of when I was doing my Aikido training at the same time as my private, and my instructor was throwing everything including the kitchen sink at me to try and rattle me during a simulated emergency.

I finally said to him, "None of that is going to work."
"Why not?"
"Because after I get done flying, I get rushed by 3-4 black belts and I have about half a second to make a decision, or I am in a world of hurt. Even at 3000agl that gives me 3 minutes to figure something out. 3 minutes is an eternity."

We never did any more emergency training after that.

Take your watch, and just look at see how long a minute really is. It's longer than you think. If it doesn't seem like it is enough time to make decisions, go up with a CFI who does think a minute is a long time, and do some training where he limits you to 10 seconds to figure things out. Although, even 10 seconds is being generous in my book. So I guess it is all what you get used to.
 
EdFred said:
A minute is PLENTY of time. Reminds me of when I was doing my Aikido training at the same time as my private, and my instructor was throwing everything including the kitchen sink at me to try and rattle me during a simulated emergency.

I finally said to him, "None of that is going to work."
"Why not?"
"Because after I get done flying, I get rushed by 3-4 black belts and I have about half a second to make a decision, or I am in a world of hurt. Even at 3000agl that gives me 3 minutes to figure something out. 3 minutes is an eternity."

We never did any more emergency training after that.

Take your watch, and just look at see how long a minute really is. It's longer than you think. If it doesn't seem like it is enough time to make decisions, go up with a CFI who does think a minute is a long time, and do some training where he limits you to 10 seconds to figure things out. Although, even 10 seconds is being generous in my book. So I guess it is all what you get used to.
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This sounds like me preaching about instrument scan. If someone tries to tell me that s/he can't scan an instrument, interpret its meaning, and move on in two seconds, I ask them to let me stick my finger in their eye and hold it there for two seconds. Ten seconds is an eternity.

Bob Gardner
 
Well, seconds is one thing if you can see something and recognize it. But, what about poor visibility that gradually changes i.e. haze that blends in and turns into a cloud. How soon can one recognize that you may be about to enter a cloud when the haze blends so easily? So, I am wondering how many of you have inadvertently entered a cloud and quickly turned around? Or is it really easier to recognize and avoid in such conditions than I may be thinking?
 
Um..............because you can no longer see 3 miles? :D
 
skidoo said:
Well, seconds is one thing if you can see something and recognize it. But, what about poor visibility that gradually changes i.e. haze that blends in and turns into a cloud. How soon can one recognize that you may be about to enter a cloud when the haze blends so easily? So, I am wondering how many of you have inadvertently entered a cloud and quickly turned around? Or is it really easier to recognize and avoid in such conditions than I may be thinking?
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A cloud is rather easily distinguishable from 3 miles since you don't see the ground anymore, or anything else. And I personally have never unwittingly entered a cloud formation.
 
San Diego gets a whole lot of haze now and then. 7-10 is pretty common. I usually work out my flight before I leave, M. headings and such. I draw it out on my chart and have yet to have any problems. But then, this is San Diego, 270 will take you to the coast, 090 the desert, it's pretty hard to get lost unless you are in IFR conditions, then you're in serious trouble if your a VFR pilot like myself. If your in doubt, it's easy, don't go, wait for a better day.

John
 
mikegreen said:
Reported as 10 (!). This is looking mostly South/SW over north-central Indiana.
Not a cloud for 30 miles... but damn, couldn't see much of anything in that mess.

Regards,

Mike

P7080818.JPG
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Thant looks like my solo XC's at 1500 ft!
 
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