Violation of Minimum Altitude in Pattern - Ron Levy?

wsuffa

wsuffa

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Bill S.
Ron (or anyone else who has the info),

I think it was you that mentioned one time that you had the text of an FAA or NTSB decision supporting violation of a pilot for flying in the traffic pattern at lower-than-normal altitude due to the ceiling. IIRC the bust was either (or both) for violating minimum altitudes (500' or 1000') or for careless/reckless. I want to say this was on Long Island somewhere. And I think it was mentioned that the pilot challenged the bust claiming that the lower altitude was for takeoff-landing?

Do you have a link to that decision online, or is it something you can either post or email me?

No, this is for nothing I did, it's for a discussion that a couple of us are having about altitude requirements in the pattern.

Thanks.

bill
 
It never got to the NTSB, so it never made it into the NTSB O&O page, which means it's not available on line. But it did involve two CFI's at Republic Airport in Farmingdale on Long Island, and they were both burned for a 91.119 violation for flying the pattern at 800 AGL (200 below published TPA) over a congested area trying to stay 500 below a 1300-foot ceiling. There defense that said it was "necessary for takeoff/landing" was rejected on the grounds that this verbiage was meant only to allow them to descend from published TPA to the runway on a normal glide path, not to allow them fly the pattern below TPA in order to maintain VFR cloud clearance. The FAA's position was that if they wanted to fly the pattern under VFR, they should have obtained a SVFR clearance so they could go up to 300 below the deck while staying at 1000 AGL over that congested area on downwind, where they did not have to fly lower in order to make a normal descent to land on the runway.
 
Can you get an SVFR outside of Class B/C/D airspace?
 
Thanks, Ron. That's exactly the case.

Is there anything else written anywhere on it (besides what you just wrote)? The letter of violation, maybe?

bill
 
N2212R said:
Can you get an SVFR outside of Class B/C/D airspace?
Click to expand...

Ron L. subsequently noted that SVFR is available from the controlling agency. Where it gets interesting is when there are two controlling agencies involved. An example is an SVFR flight between Lancaster (LNS) and Smoketown (S37). LNS is class D whereas S37 lies in the class E space (to the ground) protecting the VOR/DME 31 approach to LNS. LNS tower owns LNS class D space but Harrisburg approach owns the class E space. If you are sitting on the ground at LNS and request a SVFR to Smoketown you will hear, "Cleared special VFR out of the class delta space." Since you asked for SVFR to S37 you might think you are legal for the entire flight. You aren't. The SVFR you receive from tower is only good for the airspace they own--the class D airspace. You have to specifically ask LNS tower to coordinate with Harrisburg for an SVFR in the class E space around S37.
 
wsuffa said:
Is there anything else written anywhere on it (besides what you just wrote)? The letter of violation, maybe?
Click to expand...

Section 91.157: Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

"Controlled airspace" includes Class E. So if there's Class E to the surface, you can get SVFR in that area from whatever ATC agency owns that airspace.
 
Guess I wasn't very clear. I meant the FAA violation. I've got the rules ;)

Thanks,

bill
 
wsuffa said:
Guess I wasn't very clear. I meant the FAA violation. I've got the rules
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, well, I'm sure the two CFI's and the Eastern Regional Counsel have copies of the letters, but they are not readily available to the rest of us. Individual violation data are not put on any web sites of which I know unless they get to the NTSB.
 
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