Video: FAA resolves Kings issue

Were either of those "accidents," in that they were unintended?

An unfortunate result does not make an accident.

Yes, both unintended discharges. In the BART incident, the officer thought he was shooting his Taser. In the other incident, the officer accidentally pulled the trigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/11/1...cer-accidentally-fired-gun-at-cuffed-suspect/

And there are a lot more too. Not because cops are dumb or incompetent, but because mistakes happen, and they're human.
 
Yes, both unintended discharges. In the BART incident, the officer thought he was shooting his Taser. In the other incident, the officer accidentally pulled the trigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/11/1...cer-accidentally-fired-gun-at-cuffed-suspect/

And there are a lot more too. Not because cops are dumb or incompetent, but because mistakes happen, and they're human.

I'm not sure you can call the former an accident - he meant to pull the trigger. Of course, that's assuming you believe what he says. Given what you've written in this thread, I'm surprised that you do.

As to the latter, nobody died, did they.
 
As pilots we are trained to react a certain way when we are faced with a certain situation. These procedures are developed over time and are pretty good guidelines but they may not be the best option in every situation. When we are trained we are trained to adhere to these procedures and if you doubt it just look in the FAR. Many hours and mistakes later we develop our own style. The more experienced we become we sometimes drift a little outside of the FAR and as long as nothing goes wrong it is not an issue, most of the time. Law enforcement also receives training on how to deal with situations that they encounter but from time to time they are faced with a situation that does not fit in with the training, however they do not have the luxury of developing there own styles due to the litigious nature of America today. Procedures are laid out in departmental policies and you had better adhere to these procedures or face disciplinary action for placing liability on the department. So most officers today do not deviate from policy out of self preservation most especially when news reporters are on scene like they were here. I know I kind of laugh when someone armchairs a pilot or something in avaition without knowing anything about flying. For example the kids in JFK tower, they blew that way out of proportion. Clearing for take off is not the same as vectoring for traffic, but they were judged by people in the media who know little or nothing about what was going on and forced the FAA's hand.
 
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So,....EPIC is responsible and the local LE is not responsible for their own actions. Please understand that the average citizen is not particularly understanding of that position...or accepting of that position.
Could you please show me where I said that? I don't believe I said that at all. Which would mean that you pulled that conclusion entirely out of.. the air. ;)

The police ARE responsible for their own actions - so, if they take an action that's reasonable for the situation as they know it to be (a federal agency charged with keeping track of this stuff and called them and confirmed that a plane headed for their airport is stolen), if they take that action, then they are responsible for whatever happens during that incident. Which is why they have lots of training and policies in place to prevent accidents. What they did was reasonable, except for the lack of complete explanation and apology.
 
The police officer visually confirmed the N-Number. He should have been able to, at the very least, called the FAA and spoken to them about it. Same as a license plate.

Anything is better than point a loaded gun at an innocent man.
This is absurd - they don't "call the FAA" any more than they "call the Federal DOT" when they stop a truck. They call the agencies who are charged with maintaining the database and confirm the information - and until they have that confirmation, then everyone involved is under "investigative detention" so the scene is contained and secure. And as Jesse so aptly put it, how WOULD you suggest someone "call the FAA" at ten o'clock at night?

You've complained when newspapers screw up an aviation story from a lack of information and now you're doing exactly the same thing as regards law enforcement.
 
Could you please show me where I said that? I don't believe I said that at all. Which would mean that you pulled that conclusion entirely out of.. the air.

I never said that you said that. You did imply that when stating that EPIC should have verified that the aircraft was stolen but that local LE acted correctly in blindly trusting EPIC.

A federal report is no reason at all to discard common sense or responsibility.

As a final note: Please mind your manners. Instead of critically examining your own missive you chose to make a baseless and inflammatory accusation. That type of behavior is certainly less than intelligent to say the least.
 
Then perhaps the average citizen should do something other than complain about it. Considering that nothing's been done about it in the last five decades or so, I'd say the average citizen is not particularly concerned about it.

You're saying that nothing has changed in the past five decades? Wow. About all I can say to that is we live in vastly different worlds.
 
You're saying that nothing has changed in the past five decades? Wow. About all I can say to that is we live in vastly different worlds.

In terms of legalities, nothing's changed.

Is force (or shows of it) used more often now than in the past? Indisputably. Yet, I haven't seen any attempts to change the law governing that.
 
In terms of legalities, nothing's changed.

Is force (or shows of it) used more often now than in the past? Indisputably. Yet, I haven't seen any attempts to change the law governing that.

Of course you'd argue the letter of the law while ignoring the changes in LE oversight and expected behavior. There is much more to it than the limited world you chose to present here.

So tell us all about how public outcry was not ignored in Denver recently. The outcome is clear and documented as well as the crimes committed by LE.
 
Of course you'd argue the letter of the law while ignoring the changes in LE oversight and expected behavior. There is much more to it than the limited world you chose to present here.

The law is all that matters in this discussion. If you don't like it, change it. Don't get upset because I'm telling you something you don't like. If you want increases in oversight, or you want changes to the expected behavior, that's what the law is for.

You don't change a situation such as the one we're discussing here by complaining about it. You change it by changing the law. As in, you don't yell at the cops after they do something you don't like, but that was entirely legal - you make it illegal for them to do that something which you don't like.

As the law stands now, you have the right to be free from unreasonable gov't interference with your life, unless cause exists for unreasonable interference. As it stands now, a justified (and good faith) suspicion that a vehicle is stolen allows a stop, by force (or a show of it) if deemed appropriate by those involved.

If you don't like that, you can change it - at the local, state, or Federal level - incredibly easily. All it would take would be a law saying, "no guns will be drawn by police officers except in a cases of clear evidence of an imminent threat." Yet, has anyone suggested that, or is everyone just saying "rabble-rabble-power-hungry-cowardly-cops-rabble-rabble?"

You can accuse me of presenting a "limited world" if it suits you to do so, but that's how it is.

So tell us all about how public outcry was not ignored in Denver recently. The outcome is clear and documented as well as the crimes committed by LE.
Are you referring to the incident that was caught on remote video? I'm not going to comment on the merits - I'd be glad to by PM, and it might surprise you what my thoughts are, but I feel it would be inappropriate to comment publicly at this time.

But, if I understand your point correctly, it proves mine - complaining doesn't do anything. If you want to change the result in that kind of situation, or perhaps prevent it from happening, you'll have to change the law.
 
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The law is all that matters in this discussion. If you don't like it, change it. Don't get upset because I'm telling you something you don't like. If you want increases in oversight, or you want changes to the expected behavior, that's what the law is for.

You don't change a situation such as the one we're discussing here by complaining about it. You change it by changing the law. As in, you don't yell at the cops after they do something you don't like, but that was entirely legal - you make it illegal for them to do that something which you don't like.

As the law stands now, you have the right to be free from unreasonable gov't interference with your life, unless cause exists for unreasonable interference. As it stands now, a justified (and good faith) suspicion that a vehicle is stolen allows a stop, by force (or a show of it) if deemed appropriate by those involved.

If you don't like that, you can change it - at the local, state, or Federal level - incredibly easily. All it would take would be a law saying, "no guns will be drawn by police officers except in a cases of clear evidence of an imminent threat." Yet, has anyone suggested that, or is everyone just saying "rabble-rabble-power-hungry-cowardly-cops-rabble-rabble?"

You can accuse me of presenting a "limited world" if it suits you to do so, but that's how it is.

Are you referring to the incident that was caught on remote video? I'm not going to comment on the merits - I'd be glad to by PM, and it might surprise you what my thoughts are, but I feel it would be inappropriate to comment publicly at this time.

But, if I understand your point correctly, it proves mine - complaining doesn't do anything. If you want to change the result in that kind of situation, or perhaps prevent it from happening, you'll have to change the law.

Ahemmm, I do understand now that you live with a limited world view. {cough, cough} The law is one thing. Enforcement of the law (assault on citizens by LE no longer accepted even though it was always illegal) is another thing entirely. Can you even begin to understand the difference?

Obviously you are incapable of admitting that things have changed even with immediately available evidence. That's more than enough for me to condemn your opinion as irrelevant. Continue to argue all you like, those of us who live in the real world know where to place your arguments.

OBTW, the complaints did force a resignation and reopening an investigation. Sorry to to point out the false nature of your claim.
 
Ahemmm, I do understand now that you live with a limited world view. {cough, cough} The law is one thing. Enforcement of the law (assault on citizens by LE no longer accepted even though it was always illegal) is another thing entirely. Can you even begin to understand the difference?

I certainly see what you're saying, but it's irrelevant to the issue here. I say that because there is no law on this subject.

Your concerns in this thread have been with the manner in which this incident occurred. There's nothing illegal about what happened. There was no assault, there were no other laws broken by the police. Like it or not, as things stand now, the police have the right to pull their guns on you when the right situation exists. There's simply not much in the way of standards, rules, or laws on the subject - as things are now, it's mostly a matter of departmental policy.

For instance, what will happen here is that there will be some kind of press release saying, "we are reexamining our departmental policies and training, and if we find deficiencies, we might make changes." You'll see the same thing after tasering incidents and any other use of force incidents. That's because, right now, the law has seen fit to leave these things to police discretion. Even the courts very rarely step in (through lawsuits, motions to suppress, etc.) except in the most egregious instances.

As I said above, if you don't want things to happen like this, you change the law governing it - and then we reach what you're talking about (the citizenry not accepting behavior that is illegal). Put differently, if you don't trust the inmates to run the asylum, you run the asylum for them.

Does that make sense?

Now, had this been a clear-cut incident where laws were broken, yeah, I'd agree with you. I'd even agree with you if you were to say that we should make it so that these occurrences are illegal. But that's not the situation.

Obviously you are incapable of admitting that things have changed even with immediately available evidence. That's more than enough for me to condemn your opinion as irrelevant. Continue to argue all you like, those of us who live in the real world know where to place your arguments.
You're either confusing the issues, or are misunderstanding what I've written. I'd be glad to explain, in either greater detail or greater simplicity, but that would require a willingness on your part to consider things that you might not agree with (perhaps even vehemently).

OBTW, the complaints did force a resignation and reopening an investigation. Sorry to to point out the false nature of your claim.
Like I said, I'm not going to get drawn into a public debate on the merits on this. While I've got no connection whatsoever with the case, I just don't think it would be appropriate. I'd be glad to discuss in detail by PM, but that's it. Sorry.

But, I will reiterate what I wrote previously - the complaints, which were loud and vigorous, haven't changed anything.
 
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I never said that you said that. You did imply that when stating that EPIC should have verified that the aircraft was stolen but that local LE acted correctly in blindly trusting EPIC.

A federal report is no reason at all to discard common sense or responsibility.

As a final note: Please mind your manners. Instead of critically examining your own missive you chose to make a baseless and inflammatory accusation. That type of behavior is certainly less than intelligent to say the least.
You tell me to "mind my manners" and then call me "less than intelligent", all in the SAME POST??? :rofl: You don't have the authority to tell someone to "mind their manners". Sorry, Auntie.

"Blindly trusting" - ah, but they didn't, did they? Was anyone just arrested and charged based on that one source? :no: They secured the occupants and investigated the claim. Just as they were supposed to do. And when the truth was uncovered, everyone was free to go where they wanted. What do you think happens when they run an auto tag and it comes back stolen? Yep, they blindly trust the govt agency and stop the car, in the same manner as discussed here, and investigate the situation.
 
This should obviously be in the spin zone since folks are spinning it to suit their needs.:crazy:

Just one question, if it was really "confirmed" as a stolen aircraft then why was the aircraft not taken from the Kings? In other words, it wasn't really confirmed as stolen now was it? They really didn't understand the situation now did they? A confirmed report of a stolen plane does not equal confirmation that a plane is stolen. In one case you have confirmation of a report and in the other case you have confirmation of theft. Obviously some LEO folks need to learn the difference.

Since I'm here, another question: While you intend to go home after every shift do you also intend to ensure the rights of the individuals you "contact" are not infringed? Just asking a simple pointed question, officer, sir.
No, they don't "need to learn the difference", they had a confirmed report - which is a report coming from a confirmed source. Then they did exactly what they should have done: secured the plane and the people in it and INVESTIGATED the situation. When they did that, they found out the truth of the situation and released the Kings from their investigative detention.

And your "question" is offensive - I made sure every single time I interacted with individuals that their civil rights were not infringed by me. Y'all are talking about civil rights being infringed here, you're just complaining because of hurt feelings.
 
I dunno. I'm not a cop. I would think there needs to be some way to communicate. If not, maybe the cops shouldn't be there harrassing an old man about a plane they have no business talking about.
"no business talking about"???

Ok, this has just turned the corner into absurdity. Tell ya what, next time you have something stolen and the cops stop a suspect with your stuff, you just tell 'em to let those people go b/c the cops have no business talking about your stuff. :rolleyes:
 
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