VFR in Class B over low ceiling

[Mike I]

Quick question...and I've yet to finish my I.R. so perhaps this is putting the cart before the horse.

Is it possible to enter a Class B VFR over a layer, where the controlling facilities are reporting IFR conditions?

My general understanding is that when the controlling facility is below VFR conditions, only helicopter SVFR may be accepted or IFR traffic (at least for Class B's with No Special VFR noted). So, if my aircraft is in clear VFR conditions, is there any way I'd be let in? Or does it depend on the equipment of the controlling facility, and their ability to separate me from other traffic?

My goal is basically to get some aerial photographs of skyscrapers peering through a low lying fog bank.

I'm doubtful that one could file IFR with a delay to a point over a metro area, for the purposes of a photo mission...but I could be wrong?

 

[momalley]

You should be able to do it via the Hudson Exclusion, no?

 

[BillTIZ]

Unless there is something special about NYC Class B, I do not see an issue. You'll maintain VFR in Class B, not need to penetrate a layer and not landing at a primary airport.

 

[MachFly]

I don't see why it would be a problem. Obviously you need mode C like in any other bravo, and with that ATC will be able to safely separate you from other traffic.

I'm not really sure whether or not you'll be allowed to hold in bravo, just ask them, if they are not too busy there is a chance they will let you. Or just fly slow enough to have time to take all your pics without holding.

 

[Brad Z]

Your best bet is to call the supervisor desk at LGA tower and find out what they'd prefer. It's very much dependent on what direction LGA is landing, time of day, etc. I presume you are IFR with the ability to get and accept a clearance if necessary. In some ways, class B makes it easier to go after what you're looking for VFR because you don't need to stay 1000 above the clouds, as you would in anything other than A or daytime G airspace.

 

[Approach_controller]

For the purposes of a photo mission absolutely you can enter with the appropriate clearance and conditions VFR over an IFR layer.

It sounds like you're new to the photo pilot thing. As a controller, please tell me before hand and ask if your plan works on the phone. There is little worse than an initial call up over the congested area in MVFR from someone who couldn't be bothered to relay their intentions. Be prepared to hear no it isn't a good time and be prepared to be vectored out of the way. 99% of the time we can make it work. Odds improve with pre planning.

 

[acrophile]

My general understanding is that when the controlling facility is below VFR conditions, only helicopter SVFR may be accepted or IFR traffic (at least for Class B's with No Special VFR noted).

I'm unaware of any regulation to that effect. Could you explain the origin of your "general understanding"? I especially don't see how SVFR could be relevant, as you're describing flight in VMC.

 

[Mike I]

You should be able to do it via the Hudson Exclusion, no?

Exclusion only goes to 1300', so hard to get above the layer and skyscrapers. Hoping for 2000', and over the land mass.

I'm unaware of any regulation to that effect. Could you explain the origin of your "general understanding"? I especially don't see how SVFR could be relevant, as you're describing flight in VMC.

A quick read through the 7110 Section 5 has given me confidence it's less of an issue that I had thought, as long as the VFR aircraft can report it is in clear VFR conditions with appropriate flight visibility.

For the purposes of a photo mission absolutely you can enter with the appropriate clearance and conditions VFR over an IFR layer.

It sounds like you're new to the photo pilot thing. As a controller, please tell me before hand and ask if your plan works on the phone. There is little worse than an initial call up over the congested area in MVFR from someone who couldn't be bothered to relay their intentions. Be prepared to hear no it isn't a good time and be prepared to be vectored out of the way. 99% of the time we can make it work. Odds improve with pre planning.

Thanks for that info. I'm new to the photo pilot thing but spend a bit of time in the backseat of helos on the photo side of things, so I'm not always party to any pre-arrangements that need to be made. In NYC on a clear day, the clearance is very simple unless we're doing things like photo work from above the TCA in the Class B, operating over an airport for an extended time, etc. The quirk in this one for me was operating VFR when controlling facilities are below even MVFR.

Your best bet is to call the supervisor desk at LGA tower and find out what they'd prefer. It's very much dependent on what direction LGA is landing, time of day, etc. I presume you are IFR with the ability to get and accept a clearance if necessary. In some ways, class B makes it easier to go after what you're looking for VFR because you don't need to stay 1000 above the clouds, as you would in anything other than A or daytime G airspace.

Yes, worth a call to the sup. Not IFR qualified myself but was looking to do this flight with a pilot that is, and wanted to gather info ahead of time.

Thanks for all of the replies!

 

[flyingron]

You're missing the words "below the ceiling" in the description of the surface area. In fact, all you need in the class B is clear of clouds. I've been over the cloud deck VFR in class B's. I'm a little leary of going over a layer VFR when you're not IFR capable. It's the difference between having an emergency or just calling up for a popup if things go south on you.

 

[Palmpilot]

You're missing the words "below the ceiling" in the description of the surface area. In fact, all you need in the class B is clear of clouds. I've been over the cloud deck VFR in class B's. I'm a little leary of going over a layer VFR when you're not IFR capable. It's the difference between having an emergency or just calling up for a popup if things go south on you.

A lot would depend on how widespread the undercast was.

 

[Palmpilot]

...My general understanding is that when the controlling facility is below VFR conditions, only helicopter SVFR may be accepted or IFR traffic (at least for Class B's with No Special VFR noted)...

In reading through 91.157, it appears to me that the difference between helicopters and other aircraft is that the latter require at least one statute mile flight visibility for SVFR, whereas helicopters require at least one statute mile ground visibility, or flight visibility if ground visibility is not reported.

 

[MAKG1]

As said earlier, you need "clear of clouds" in Class B, and overflying an undercast is entirely allowable. BTDT.

However, there may be complications if Approach restricts you with regard to ground features you can't see. They can be told "unable," but it may result in you being steered out of the airspace.

I've been told to remain over the coastline when it was fogged in. Fortunately, that part of Class B wasn't too heavy and I got vectors instead.

 

[Palmpilot]

As said earlier, you need "clear of clouds" in Class B, and overflying an undercast is entirely allowable. BTDT.

However, there may be complications if Approach restricts you with regard to ground features you can't see. They can be told "unable," but it may result in you being steered out of the airspace.

I've been told to remain over the coastline when it was fogged in. Fortunately, that part of Class B wasn't too heavy and I got vectors instead.

The last time that happened to me, I offered to fly direct to SAU VOR instead, and they were fine with it.