VFR Flyways vs Victor airways

Archimago

Archimago

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Archimago
Most of my flying has been around the rural areas of KPRB with some flights to a class C airport (KMRY). I would like to branch out and I am planning a flight to Chino (KCNO) so that I can challenge myself with more congested airspace.
I planned a flight utilizing the VFR flyways for Los Angeles but notice that these do not coincide with the Victor airways... the Victor airways (V186) seem a lot more direct and less circuitous than the flyways.
Firstly is there a reason I should follow the flyways rather than the victor airways as long as I am clear of the Bravo/Charlie/Delta airspaces between Simi Valley and Chino
Secondly. There is a class C airspace north of Chino that semi circles the field. I am anticipating that the tower would likely route me to enter a left pattern for 26 ( i understand not to put my eggs in that basket, but still....) If so it doesn't look like there would be room to enter on a 45 for downwind. Would ATC likely clear me for the downwind?

Thanks in advance
 
I was concerned that switching between controllers might be cumbersome especially that close to the field.
 
Archimago said:
I was concerned that switching between controllers might be cumbersome especially that close to the field.
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It’s not the big deal you think it is, remeber it’s really just a conversation
 
So I would I request a Class C transition from Approach (flight following)?
 
Not familiar with that particular airspace but generally on FF they know where you’re going and will route you there the best they can depending on traffic. Sometimes that means they’ll run you through class C or D, sometimes they’ll clear you into the Bravo, or they may route you around any of those. Always make sure you hear the words “cleared into the Bravo” don’t assume because you’re headed through it you can go there, they get busy and forget sometimes.
 
Archimago said:
So I would I request a Class C transition from Approach (flight following)?
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No need to request a Class C transition. Recall that (unlike Class B which requires a VFR clearance) all Class C requires is two-way communication. You have that when using flight following and talking with Approach.

As @Blatham489 said, if you told them where you are going, they will get you there.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No need to request a Class C transition. Recall that (unlike Class B which requires a VFR clearance) all Class C requires is two-way communication. You have that when using flight following and talking with Approach.

As @Blatham489 said, if you told them where you are going, they will get you there.
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What if you are on with Center and they forget to hand you off to the Class C approach controller? This is one of those places where the rules say “two-way radio contact with air traffic control” but they don’t say which ATC you have to be talking to. I’ve been implicitly cleared through Ellsworth class D airspace by being on with Ellsworth approach. I have queried Grand Forks approach if I was cleared through the Grand Forks AFB class Delta and was told that I was not. In both instances, ATC didn’t tell me this until I asked.

So my advice to the OP is, if you are in doubt, just ask ATC. But I’m tuning in for further discussion here because there’s no such thing as too much knowledge or understanding.
 
Archimago said:
Most of my flying has been around the rural areas of KPRB with some flights to a class C airport (KMRY). I would like to branch out and I am planning a flight to Chino (KCNO) so that I can challenge myself with more congested airspace.
I planned a flight utilizing the VFR flyways for Los Angeles but notice that these do not coincide with the Victor airways... the Victor airways (V186) seem a lot more direct and less circuitous than the flyways.
Firstly is there a reason I should follow the flyways rather than the victor airways as long as I am clear of the Bravo/Charlie/Delta airspaces between Simi Valley and Chino
Secondly. There is a class C airspace north of Chino that semi circles the field. I am anticipating that the tower would likely route me to enter a left pattern for 26 ( i understand not to put my eggs in that basket, but still....) If so it doesn't look like there would be room to enter on a 45 for downwind. Would ATC likely clear me for the downwind?

Thanks in advance
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The VFR Flyways are to transit the LAX Class B airspace which you won't need to enter if going to Chino from the Paso area. Depending on your altitude I suspect your flight following sequence will be Oakland Center to Santa Barbara Approach to Socal Approach. You might even be able to avoid the Class C shelf of Riverside if you're down to 2700. I'm thinking of doing the same flight from KSMX-going to the museum at Chino?
 
iamtheari said:
What if you are on with Center and they forget to hand you off to the Class C approach controller? This is one of those places where the rules say “two-way radio contact with air traffic control” but they don’t say which ATC you have to be talking to. I’ve been implicitly cleared through Ellsworth class D airspace by being on with Ellsworth approach. I have queried Grand Forks approach if I was cleared through the Grand Forks AFB class Delta and was told that I was not. In both instances, ATC didn’t tell me this until I asked.
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I've NEVER been cleared into C or D space when using Flight Following, and I was based for 7 years on the very edge of Delta space and transitioned through on many, many flights. If they wanted me out, they would either repsond to my initial call after takeoff with "aircraft calling, please remain outside the Class D airspace" or coming home on descent, they would hold me at 4500 msl [D went to 3400] until I was past their runway. That gave me almost 6 nm to descend to our pattern at 1600 . . . which I did in a large 360 to the east of both fields, over downtown, usually two loops to descend and then slow down on the leg back to the field.

But if you're worried, you can always ask
 
Class C airspace is as close to a non-event as it gets.

I can’t/don’t exactly advise you ignore it, but so long as you are using Flight Following, you don’t have to ask for it at all. Just be sure they know where you want to go. As you get closer to Chino you’ll be given vectors. If those vectors take you into C, so be it. controllers all work together and share responsibility. If LA Center plots you a path to a downwind that clips ONT’s class-C, it’s just fine.

The airspace is more of a consideration if you’re trying to make this trip while talking to no one. (Except Chino tower).
 
farmrjohn said:
The VFR Flyways are to transit the LAX Class B airspace which you won't need to enter if going to Chino from the Paso area. Depending on your altitude I suspect your flight following sequence will be Oakland Center to Santa Barbara Approach to Socal Approach. You might even be able to avoid the Class C shelf of Riverside if you're down to 2700. I'm thinking of doing the same flight from KSMX-going to the museum at Chino?
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Yes, the museum is going to be a plus
 
Rgbeard said:
Oh, and yeah. VFR flyways have very little to do with this trip, from what I see.
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Thanks, That should making planning even easier and flight more straight forward
 
Rgbeard said:
Class C airspace is as close to a non-event as it gets.

I can’t/don’t exactly advise you ignore it, but so long as you are using Flight Following, you don’t have to ask for it at all. Just be sure they know where you want to go. As you get closer to Chino you’ll be given vectors. If those vectors take you into C, so be it. controllers all work together and share responsibility. If LA Center plots you a path to a downwind that clips ONT’s class-C, it’s just fine.

The airspace is more of a consideration if you’re trying to make this trip while talking to no one. (Except Chino tower).
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Sounds like I should expect a lot more interaction with ATC
 
iamtheari said:
What if you are on with Center and they forget to hand you off to the Class C approach controller?
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That's why I said
You have that when using flight following and talking with Approach
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So far anyway, I've always know whether I was talking with Approach or Center and I have never been anywhere near a Class C boundary and been talking to Center.
 
iamtheari said:
What if you are on with Center and they forget to hand you off to the Class C approach controller? This is one of those places where the rules say “two-way radio contact with air traffic control” but they don’t say which ATC you have to be talking to. I’ve been implicitly cleared through Ellsworth class D airspace by being on with Ellsworth approach. I have queried Grand Forks approach if I was cleared through the Grand Forks AFB class Delta and was told that I was not. In both instances, ATC didn’t tell me this until I asked.

So my advice to the OP is, if you are in doubt, just ask ATC. But I’m tuning in for further discussion here because there’s no such thing as too much knowledge or understanding.
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91.130, the reg for class C airspace, says that it has to be the ATC facility providing air traffic services. 91.129 has the same language for class D. I don't recall if it's ever been clarified whether that means the specific facility that has jurisdiction over the airspace you're entering. I agree with your advice to ask ATC when in doubt. However I wouldn't use the word "cleared" in respect to class C or D airspace, since for VFR, authorization to enter those classes of airspace is conveyed by meeting the communication requirements, not through a clearance. Other than specific cases such as runway use, class B entry, and practice instrument approaches, the word "cleared" indicates an IFR clearance, and I suspect that some controllers might be reluctant to say you are "cleared" if none of those situations applies.
 
midlifeflyer said:
So far anyway, I've always know whether I was talking with Approach or Center and I have never been anywhere near a Class C boundary and been talking to Center.
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Same here; Center has always handed me off long before entering class C.
 
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SoCal knows very well what you need to do to get into KCNO. You'll likely never talk to KONT on your route. At most you'll get moved a bit more West than your direct course to avoid their traffic, but that direction will come from SoCal or KCNO.

[Reference: based at a KFUL for a while. KCNO was my preferred place to do T&Gs because there are multiple (longer) runways and it's easy to find.]
 
It's impossible give LOA and whatever for a pilot to know WHO is responsible for any given airspace. All he can make is a educated guess for initial contact. Once that happens, the presumption (and the ATC handbook backs this up) that ATC will handle whatever coordination/handoffs that is necessary for as long as services are provided.
 
Palmpilot said:
91.130, the reg for class C airspace, says that it has to be the ATC facility providing air traffic services. 91.129 has the same language for class D. I don't recall if it's ever been clarified whether that means the specific facility that has jurisdiction over the airspace you're entering.
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Edit: @flyingron posted while I was still composing.

I've always thought the reason the ATC Handbook (the ".65" for purists) says "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" for VFR transitions through surface areas is that, it's essentially unknowable. There are many Letters of Agreement between facilities which change the default "jurisdiction" we see on the Sectionals or in the Chart Supplement.

My best example is an instructional flight in the Denver area. We were west of the Class B, not using Flight Following, and were heading toward the KBJC Class D at an altitude below the Class D ceiling. My student, correctly, called Tower for a transit, and was told to contact Approach. There is (was?) a LOA between KBJC and Denver TRACON giving TRACON jurisdiction of a portion of KBJC airspace above the traffic pattern, but within the Class D.

FWIW, I've also received a Class D landing clearance from Approach.
 
Thanks to all for the information, I’m looking forward to the challenge.
 
Ravioli said:
SoCal knows very well what you need to do to get into KCNO. You'll likely never talk to KONT on your route. At most you'll get moved a bit more West than your direct course to avoid their traffic, but that direction will come from SoCal or KCNO.

[Reference: based at a KFUL for a while. KCNO was my preferred place to do T&Gs because there are multiple (longer) runways and it's easy to find.]
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About how far out will SoCal typically hand me over to KCNO? I’m planning on following V186
 
KONT is really easy to work with. Its a non issue transitioning through their airspace and they will clear you for a few landings if you want to without any issues.
 
Quite often I fly to a class-D that is adjacent to a class-C airport: from 06C to KMWC right next to KMKE. For FF I call Chicago Approach and eventually they hand me over to Milwaukee Approach. Milwaukee guides me through their airspace and they set me up for the approach (e.g., "expect runway 33R straight in", or "vectors for left base runway 33R"). By the time they hand me off to KMWC tower, I know which runway I'll be landing, so my initial call to the tower would be "Timmerman Tower, N12345, 5 mile final, runway 33R").

Have a sheet with the frequencies you anticipate you'll need, contact South Cal. Approach within 20 NM of KONT (if you are not already on FF), tell them where you are going, and they'll set you up for your approach to KCNO. By the time you call tower, the controllers there will know which way you are coming from and which runway you'll be using.
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
Have a sheet with the frequencies you anticipate you'll need, contact South Cal. Approach within 20 NM of KONT (if you are not already on FF), tell them where you are going, and they'll set you up for your approach to KCNO. By the time you call tower, the controllers there will know which way you are coming from and which runway you'll be using.
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Thanks!
 
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