VFR Flight Plan Activated - or was it?

NealRomeoGolf

NealRomeoGolf

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Flew a doggie flight from Kennett, MO up to Bloomington, IL on Saturday (and met @arkvet cuz he helped with the first leg). Sometimes I file VFR flight plans, sometimes I don't. If it's a long flight I always create a flight plan online with 1800wxbrief and use it for my briefing. But I don't always activate.

For the case on Saturday, I had it filed but didn't activate. Took off from Kennett and called up Memphis Center. They passed me to a different Center sector right away without a squawk code. Call up the new Center controller and there became some confusion assigning me a squawk code. He said I had a flight plan already open.

1. I thought VFR flight plans were just informational and didn't affect flight following or squawk codes.
2. I didn't open the flight plan, so how in the world was it causing confusion in the background for ATC?

Eventually the controller got it all sorted out but it was a good 7 to 10 minutes before I was squawked and radar identified. Weird.
 
I suspect he was confusing you with IFR traffic, which also uses squawk codes and similar (but not identical!) interactions with ATC.

It happens. Launching VFR out of San Carlos the other day, one ground controller asked me to report ready to copy, and then gave me a "clearance" consisting of a departure frequency and squawk code (no, he didn't use the magic word "cleared" so I was still VFR). Not the first time that has happened, by a long shot.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Flew a doggie flight from Kennett, MO up to Bloomington, IL on Saturday (and met @arkvet cuz he helped with the first leg). Sometimes I file VFR flight plans, sometimes I don't. If it's a long flight I always create a flight plan online with 1800wxbrief and use it for my briefing. But I don't always activate.

For the case on Saturday, I had it filed but didn't activate. Took off from Kennett and called up Memphis Center. They passed me to a different Center sector right away without a squawk code. Call up the new Center controller and there became some confusion assigning me a squawk code. He said I had a flight plan already open.

1. I thought VFR flight plans were just informational and didn't affect flight following or squawk codes.
2. I didn't open the flight plan, so how in the world was it causing confusion in the background for ATC?

Eventually the controller got it all sorted out but it was a good 7 to 10 minutes before I was squawked and radar identified. Weird.
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WXBRIEF probably activated it for you. If clearance/ground doesnt give you a squawk code after you tell them your route, ask for one. Departure will give you flight follow if they are not too busy.
 
citizen5000 said:
WXBRIEF probably activated it for you. If clearance/ground doesnt give you a squawk code after you tell them your route, ask for one. Departure will give you flight follow if they are not too busy.
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I don't think that explains what happened, because VFR flight plans don't normally get sent to ATC.
 
And in this case Kennett is non-towered. I didn't talk to anybody until I was airborne looking for VFR flight following.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't think that explains what happened, because VFR flight plans don't normally get sent to ATC.
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I don't think that is as true as it once was. There seem to be more instances of things like this happening. That you can get a briefing, file a flight plan, activate it and close it without ever talking to someone tells a story. The world is "connected." So is the ATC system. The lines between Centers, Approach Controls, Flight Services Stations, company dispatchers etc are not as black and white as they once were.
 
ATC doesn't get your VFR flight plan. The LM computer is set up ONLY TO TRANSMIT IFRs TO ATC. Centers have a separate position that can access your VFR flight plan but has nothing to do with ATC or even activating it.

The first center you called probably typed you into the NAS flight data input output (FDIO) computer and that why the next center squawked you up.
 
Velocity173 said:
ATC doesn't get your VFR flight plan. The LM computer is set up ONLY TO TRANSMIT IFRs TO ATC. Centers have a separate position that can access your VFR flight plan but has nothing to do with ATC or even activating it.

The first center you called probably typed you into the NAS flight data input output (FDIO) computer and that why the next center squawked you up.
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But he asked me specifically if I was on a flight plan. Why would he ask that? I told him I had made one but never activated it.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Flew a doggie flight from Kennett, MO up to Bloomington, IL on Saturday (and met @arkvet cuz he helped with the first leg). Sometimes I file VFR flight plans, sometimes I don't. If it's a long flight I always create a flight plan online with 1800wxbrief and use it for my briefing. But I don't always activate.

For the case on Saturday, I had it filed but didn't activate. Took off from Kennett and called up Memphis Center. They passed me to a different Center sector right away without a squawk code. Call up the new Center controller and there became some confusion assigning me a squawk code. He said I had a flight plan already open.

1. I thought VFR flight plans were just informational and didn't affect flight following or squawk codes.
2. I didn't open the flight plan, so how in the world was it causing confusion in the background for ATC?

Eventually the controller got it all sorted out but it was a good 7 to 10 minutes before I was squawked and radar identified. Weird.
Click to expand...
I've had ATC mysteriously 'know' about my VFR flight plan before(and offer to activate it when I had planned on not bothering and didn't, so I said sure). And several ATC guys on here have told me that they have no way to know that, go figure.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
But he asked me specifically if I was on a flight plan. Why would he ask that? I told him I had made one but never activated it.
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Flight plan and in the NAS computer are two different things. Why he asked if you had a flight plan? Don't know. Unless you are entered into the system by ATC, your VFR flight plan doesn't matter.

Also, activating your flight plan has nothing to do with the flight strip they have on you either. If ATC started receiving VFR flight plans, that would be a huge change of procedure. You'd hear about it in every major aviation publication.
 
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NealRomeoGolf said:
But he asked me specifically if I was on a flight plan. Why would he ask that? I told him I had made one but never activated it.
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From descriptions offered by other controllers on here, they can enter you into the NAS system. But if he plugged you in somehow and the other controller didn't pass you on, he might be wondering why he's getting a call out of the blue from someone like they're on a flight plan. Could have been that the first center or tower squawked you up but failed to let you know about it... or a tail number from someone else got transposed maybe?

But the ABILITY to look up flight plans and flight plans being entered into the NAS are two different things from what I understand.
 
The first controller didn't do anything but tell me to contact another controller because I was already entering a different sector. I'm very perplexed.
 
Historical mostly. IFR plans go to ATC because they need to. VFR plans stay with the FSS system because that's how they are triggered when ETA expires. Of course, a long time ago both (some) pilots and ATC realized that if you marked a VFR plan IFR but put VFR in the altitude block it would show up in the ATC computer like any other VFR geting radar services. Of course some FAA DC pinheads read ulterior motives into the act of doing this. On the other hand some ATC facilities, like OAK realized that this was a great way to get data preentered.

26 years ago I was sitting in the meeting where the first people who were being cleared to fly into the FRZ were being briefed. Martin, an FAA ATC guy who hadn't worked a scope in decades was making a big thing about the difficulty in getting information from the Leesburg AFSS to the DC (they weren't yet consolidated) area TRACONS. I turn to him and said, "Why don't you just put them in as IFR?" Martin runs over to the FSS guys and asked them and they say "Of course, we're putting them in as IFR, how else would we do it?" It's obvious to everybody who works or uses the system other than FAA management. It's now the official way FRZ and SFRA plans are handled. It took ZERO changes to the legacy system.
 
My impression is that the only thing it would take to make this a recognized procedure on the part of all concerned is adding a paragraph to the AIM, and adding a similar paragraph to the controllers' manual.
 
I have a hunch. It may not be correct.

The first controller probably typed your info into the NAS computer to initiate a NAS flight plan. This is required for you to receive flight following from a center. (We're talking about a different "flight plan" than the one you put into the FSS website.) When a flight plan is created in the NAS computer, and the aircraft is departing from a non-towered airport, the flight plan has to be "DMd" (dee-emmed), ATC jargon which refers to the action of inputting a "DM," or "departure message," on the flight plan. The DM tells the NAS computer that the aircraft is airborne. It also puts the flight plan information on the screen of the controller who owns that airspace.

Center Controller 1 probably put the info into the NAS, DMd the flight plan he created with that info, and then sent you to the controller who was working your airspace. The next center controller would see you as an active flight plan, but because he was apparently unaware you did not already have your squawk code, did not know that he was supposed to issue it to you for whatever reason.
 
Another way to look at this is using a bit of slang that's not 100% accurate, but it shows the difference.

The Center controller needs to enter you into something to get you a flight STRIP. They're going to call that a flight PLAN.

But it's not the same thing or in the same data system as the flight PLAN you filed with AFSS.

You can see the results of this on long XCs on places like FlightAware. VFR long XCs that talk to Centers on a squawk code that can cross Center boundaries often show up as tracks with dashed lines showing where they're going on FA just like IFRs. The controller just stuck a route of flight in there for you.

It may not be what you filed with AFSS unless they asked you for your route of flight. And that's pretty rare. Most of the time they'll assume you're direct VFR and following a VOR dog leg will usually get their curiosity up and they'll ask.

I've never had the guts to say, "Denver Center, advise when ready to copy full route clearance..." when they eventually ask and I'm following a victor airway with a big dogleg in it /U or /A. LOL.
 
Hey Neal:)

Dumb question (from someone that has literally never filed a VFR flight plan), but what is the benefit of filing a VFR flight plan if you call up center on departure and pick up flight following? They'll have the same info won't they? Now if you have no intention of flight following I can see where the flight plan would have a purpose.
 
arkvet said:
Hey Neal:)

Dumb question (from someone that has literally never filed a VFR flight plan), but what is the benefit of filing a VFR flight plan if you call up center on departure and pick up flight following? They'll have the same info won't they? Now if you have no intention of flight following I can see where the flight plan would have a purpose.
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A VFR flight plan isn't a flight plan as far as the NAS is concerned. It's a note to the FSS saying "I'm going to X place at Y time following Z route. I plan to be there at A time using B speed with C people on board. If I fail to show up at X, send the choppers."

I'd say if you're NOT picking up flight following, then a VFR "flight plan" is a great idea. I think if you're going to be on FF, then the VFR flight plan is extra insurance in case 'workload permitting' means radar services terminated, squawk VFR.
 
arkvet said:
Hey Neal:)

Dumb question (from someone that has literally never filed a VFR flight plan), but what is the benefit of filing a VFR flight plan if you call up center on departure and pick up flight following? They'll have the same info won't they? Now if you have no intention of flight following I can see where the flight plan would have a purpose.
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Along the same lines as ircphoenix said. I create a plan so I can generate my briefing online. In this case I made the plan the night before to get my outlook briefing. Then I got my standard briefing in the morning. I get paranoid about my VFR flight plans if I start veering off my departure times (either from being too lazy to amend it or whatever) so I don't have people start looking for me due to an expired plan (cuz maaaaybe it happened to me once). Sometimes I initiate them even if I'm getting flight following because it's possible I may not actually get FF due to workload or what if I for some reason lose radar contact or something. Redundancy I guess.
 
denverpilot said:
Another way to look at this is using a bit of slang that's not 100% accurate, but it shows the difference.

The Center controller needs to enter you into something to get you a flight STRIP. They're going to call that a flight PLAN.

But it's not the same thing or in the same data system as the flight PLAN you filed with AFSS.
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That is my take as well. The term "flight plan" is used loosely in a wide variety of different applications. I would be willing to bet money that the "flight plan" that ATC was referring to was not the same "flight plan" that the OP filed with Flight Service over the phone
 
Shawn said:
I would be willing to bet money that the "flight plan" that ATC was referring to was not the same "flight plan" that the OP filed with Flight Service over the phone
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If this is true, then I can only think of 2 things that could have happened.

1. On my flight following down to KTKX, they didn't drop me when I went to CTAF and my southbound flight stayed in the computer and confused the new controller when I called up going northbound.
2. On my initial callup going northbound, the controller put me in the system and assigned me a squawk code, did a handoff to the other center, but never told me the squawk code or radar identified. When I called in to the second controller asking for flight following, he was confused because he had already gotten a handoff and wasn't expecting a cold call for FF.

I find either scenario hard to believe, but I guess anything is possible.
 
arkvet said:
Hey Neal:)

Dumb question (from someone that has literally never filed a VFR flight plan), but what is the benefit of filing a VFR flight plan if you call up center on departure and pick up flight following? They'll have the same info won't they? Now if you have no intention of flight following I can see where the flight plan would have a purpose.
Click to expand...
The two are apples and oranges. Flight following doesn't initiate SAR if you don't arrive(or close your plan). If you are talking to them when you have an issue, they would know about it and could act, but you may not be in contact during an emergency. The VFR flight plan tells them what route they may find you if you are missing(based on your planned arrival time). You can be on flight following and roam around wherever, and maybe get refused service, who knows where you were going what route and when you were supposed to arrive in that case?
 
I wasn't getting FF (I usually do) but about to call up and get it when my engine conked out. I was still able to get emergency services from ROA approach. Actually, they handled it quite well. All they asked me to do is push ident if I had the chance. I was able to reach them on the ground and tell them I was OK.
 
exncsurfer said:
The two are apples and oranges. Flight following doesn't initiate SAR if you don't arrive(or close your plan). If you are talking to them when you have an issue, they would know about it and could act, but you may not be in contact during an emergency. The VFR flight plan tells them what route they may find you if you are missing(based on your planned arrival time). You can be on flight following and roam around wherever, and maybe get refused service, who knows where you were going what route and when you were supposed to arrive in that case?
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I've witnessed ATC sending out an ALNOT when a pilot landed without canceling flight following. It happens. From their perspective, the aircraft disappeared off radar and they couldn't contact him. Presumably, they tried "radar contact lost squawk VFR."
 
Yep, ATC is supposed to start things if someone "disappears." It's not foolproof. Even if you are IFR. We had a plane start an instrument approach and told ATC when they told him to switch to CTAF that he'd probably be back on the missed. Alas he crashed just off the field. The controller forgot about him and nobody went looking until the next day.

I've had FF where I've flown off and realized I couldn't hear the PXT anymore. I transmitted a cancellation into the blind and set my transponder to 1200. By the time hit the pattern at OXB, there were other aircraft attempting to relay calls to me from ATC wanting to know if I was OK. Similarly, ZTL asked me one day when I was getting FF if I could switch over the SVH's CTAF and call a guy he had been working and that had left the frequency without acknowledgement.
 
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