Vegas Question

Captain

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Atlantic Aviation is right at the departure end of 19R. Often we're told to taxi to 19R via Hotel Foxtrot and contact tower when ready.

My question is this:

If you contact tower short of 19R on taxiway Foxtrot and are told to 'line up and wait' would you;

A. Roll out and line up abeam Foxtrot on the runway centerline?, or

B. Roll out and taxi down to the displaced threshold and stop there?


If you pick 'A' then when you are cleared to takeoff how would you get to the threshold? Taxi down and at what speed? or just apply full throttle and go from abeam Foxtrot?
 
The taxi chart is linked below. There is no apparent displaced threshold on 19R (the double-infinity symbol you can see on 19L) in that diagram. So, the answer cannot be determined without seeing the actual runway markings. If it was marked as in AIM Figure 2-3-3, I'd taxi forward onto the runway, turn right, and continue taxiing up past the yellow chevrons across the while line and stop there to await my takeoff clearance. If it was as marked in AIM Figure 2-3-4, I'd taxi forward onto the runway, turn right, stop right there, and wait there abeam Twy F, advancing to takeoff power when cleared for takeoff.
Fig 2-3-3:
aim0203_Auto25.png


Fig 2-3-4:
aim0203_Auto24.png
 

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Captain said:
Atlantic Aviation is right at the departure end of 19R. Often we're told to taxi to 19R via Hotel Foxtrot and contact tower when ready.

My question is this:

If you contact tower short of 19R on taxiway Foxtrot and are told to 'line up and wait' would you;

A. Roll out and line up abeam Foxtrot on the runway centerline?, or

B. Roll out and taxi down to the displaced threshold and stop there?


If you pick 'A' then when you are cleared to takeoff how would you get to the threshold? Taxi down and at what speed? or just apply full throttle and go from abeam Foxtrot?
Click to expand...

I do A lined up and hit the throttles at Foxtrot as long as the surface looks adequate which it always did there.
 
A. You can take off on a displaced threshold but not land, right?? The chances that they wouldn't try to shove me off at an intersection are pretty slim anyway haha
 
Z06_Mir said:
A. You can take off on a displaced threshold but not land, right?? The chances that they wouldn't try to shove me off at an intersection are pretty slim anyway haha
Click to expand...
The taxi diagram does not show a displaced threshold for 19R. You'd have to actually look at the runway markings to know what to do.
 
Here's the Google Maps. Foxtrot the the taxiway at the end.


photo.PNG
 
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I have no idea what the correct answer is but I do A as well. My thinking is that I know the tower wants me to turn right as soon as possible and before I cross 25 on departure. Departing LAS on a hot summer afternoon, the more runway I have the better. Also, from a safety standpoint that seems like a safer place to wait than farther up the runway. Keep in mind, I fly a bug smasher DA40 not a real plane.

I'm guessing I've received this exact clearance at least five times, left from Foxtrot and never had anyone say anything other than "change to departure"
 
Captain said:
Here's the Google Maps. Foxtrot the the taxiway at the end.
Click to expand...
That matches Fig 2-3-3, so you taxi forward following the yellow centerline past the yellow chevrons onto the white piano keys and wait there. Thus, the answer is "C" -- taxi forward onto the taxiway aligned with the runway and continue to the beginning of the runway where you stop and wait. A is incorrect because it wouldn't put you on the runway, and B is incorrect because there is no displaced threshold (or it would look like Fig 2-3-4).
 
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I'd taxi all the way up to the threshold and wait there. A

Even though the surface is probably fine, they don't want you starting the takeoff roll back there. Probably won't care if a cessna does it, but there is a reason.. maybe prop/jet wash from a larger plane back there will interfere with operations somehow.
 
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Guess I've always thought of a 'relocation of a threshold' and a 'displaced threshold' as the same thing. Obviously not. Thanks.
 
Captain said:
Guess I've always thought of a 'relocation of a threshold' and a 'displaced threshold' as the same thing. Obviously not. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Displaced threshold is okay to use on your takeoff roll, that's the difference.
 
Captain said:
Guess I've always thought of a 'relocation of a threshold' and a 'displaced threshold' as the same thing. Obviously not. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Yup. When there is a relocated threshold, everything before it is taxiway, not runway, and not usable for takeoff or landing, but may be taxied on before takeoff or after landing. When there is a displaced threshold, all the white-marked area before it is usable for takeoff and rollout on landing from the other direction, but not for landing in that direction. And, of course, it is marked differently (as depicted in the figures I posted) so we pilots can tell what it is and use it properly.
 
This falls under the category of 'cat out of the bag' but I changed my original photo of the runway to remove my name from the pic. If you guys that quoted me wouldn't mind updating the link or deleting the image from your quote that'd be great.

Thanks in advance.
 
Seems like there is a sign that says something about no takeoff power until this point, meaning the threshold. I think their main concern is with the blast fence and the road on the other side. But that wouldn't seem to come into play unless you are in an airplane with a fair amount of takeoff thrust.

00000007.png
 
I have a feeling they probably wouldn't say anything if you're in a small single. I mean how long is it, 200' max? I wouldn't be in the air by then anyway thus one could consider it just a high speed taxi, right?
 
Ron Levy said:
The taxi chart is linked below. There is no apparent displaced threshold on 19R (the double-infinity symbol you can see on 19L) in that diagram. So, the answer cannot be determined without seeing the actual runway markings. If it was marked as in AIM Figure 2-3-3, I'd taxi forward onto the runway, turn right, and continue taxiing up past the yellow chevrons across the while line and stop there to await my takeoff clearance. If it was as marked in AIM Figure 2-3-4, I'd taxi forward onto the runway, turn right, stop right there, and wait there abeam Twy F, advancing to takeoff power when cleared for takeoff.
Fig 2-3-3:
aim0203_Auto25.png


Fig 2-3-4:
aim0203_Auto24.png
Click to expand...

Actually if you depart 19R, there is a sign to delay power up until the white line threshold. This is to keep the larger jets from flipping traffic on Tropicana Blvd., yes there is a small blast fence protecting the street.

If you are in a prop, you are probably ok, if you are in a jet, taxi up to the "power up" line and wait there.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I have a feeling they probably wouldn't say anything if you're in a small single. I mean how long is it, 200' max? I wouldn't be in the air by then anyway thus one could consider it just a high speed taxi, right?
Click to expand...

Using those jets as a reference, I'd say its a good deal closer to 1000' than 200
 
BillTIZ said:
If you are in a prop, you are probably ok, ...
Click to expand...
From a practical standpoint, perhaps, but the book answer is no more than taxi power on the taxiway (yellow centerline) portion until reaching the actual runway, i.e., crossing the big white line, regardless of what you're flying.
 
Ron Levy said:
From a practical standpoint, perhaps, but the book answer is no more than taxi power on the taxiway (yellow centerline) portion until reaching the actual runway, i.e., crossing the big white line, regardless of what you're flying.
Click to expand...

Agreed!
 
Even at full throttle in the Travelair there I would barely be beyond a fast taxi speed crossing the threshold anyway and the controllers always used words like "expedite" and I can take a hint, no worries.
 
Unless you are airborne you are only 'fast' taxing until you reach the runway . . . and once on the runway you are then commencing your take off roll.
 
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