Vectors for FAF

[roncachamp]

You are correct -- I should have written "Intermediate Fix," not "Initial Approach Fix."

I was cleared direct to the FAF, and both IAFs were at least 10 miles behind.

You shouldn't have been cleared to the FAF. The options for the controller are direct to an IAF, direct to the IF if certain conditions are met, or vectors to join outside of the FAF. The certain conditions to be met are; radar monitoring is provided to the IF, the aircraft has filed an advanced RNAV equipment suffix, the pilot is advised to expect clearance direct to the IF at least 5 miles from the fix, the aircraft is assigned an altitude to maintain until the IF, the aircraft is on a course that will intercept the intermediate segment at an angle not greater than 90 degrees and is at an altitude that will permit normal descent from the IF to the FAF.

 

[dmccormack]

You shouldn't have been cleared to the FAF. The options for the controller are direct to an IAF, direct to the IF if certain conditions are met, or vectors to join outside of the FAF. The certain conditions to be met are; radar monitoring is provided to the IF, the aircraft has filed an advanced RNAV equipment suffix, the pilot is advised to expect clearance direct to the IF at least 5 miles from the fix, the aircraft is assigned an altitude to
maintain until the IF, the aircraft is on a course that will intercept the intermediate segment at an angle not greater than 90 degrees and is at an altitude that will permit normal descent from the IF to the FAF.

And from where I was, a clearance to the IF would have met all those conditions and made it far simpler for me.

A clearance direct to FAF was a handful, given my position and altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

TRACON will have me heading to the east on an approach to the west. They will vecotr me to the FAF which will require a procedure turn to turn the almsot 180 degrees. The first time they did that and I flew the procedure turn the TRACON wanted to know jsut what I was doing. I told the published PT to get on course. They calmed down.

If they said they were providing "vectors to final," I can understand their alarm, as once they use that phrase, the PT is no longer authorized. OTOH, if they're giving you vectors to final, they are required to get you to a final vector that was within 30 degrees of the final approach course and join you on the course at least a couple of miles outside the FAF, in which case doing the PT would not only have been not authorized, it wouldn't have made any sense. Since they seemed to be doing neither, it might have been a good idea if you had clarified the situation with them before you got to the point of doing the PT.

Since then when I get handed off I reqest the IAF at the end of the 'T' that way I make a 90 degree left turn and then fly a mile and make another 90 degree left turn. They like that much better and when I request it I can tell the TRACON figures out that it is a much nicer way to vector me in.

It's also the way the AIM tells you and the ATC Handbook tells them it's supposed to be done.

I think the main problem is that the TRACON guys do not get a lot of IFR traffic for my airport so they just are not all that familiar with the approach.

If you're more familiar with the approach than they are, don't let their unfamiliarity jam you up with them. Anticipation and clarification are better than a phone call after landing.

 

[dmccormack]

If they said they were providing "vectors to final," I can understand their alarm, as once they use that phrase, the PT is no longer authorized. OTOH, if they're giving you vectors to final, they are required to get you to a final vector that was within 30 degrees of the final approach course and join you on the course at least a couple of miles outside the FAF, in which case doing the PT would not only have been not authorized, it wouldn't have made any sense. Since they seemed to be doing neither, it might have been a good idea if you had clarified the situation with them before you got to the point of doing the PT.

Is "Cleared direct to [IAF / FAF]" equivalent to "Fly heading 300, maintain 3000"?

The first would seem not to be a "Vector to final."

 

[ScottM]

If they said they were providing "vectors to final," I can understand their alarm, as once they use that phrase, the PT is no longer authorized. OTOH, if they're giving you vectors to final, they are required to get you to a final vector that was within 30 degrees of the final approach course and join you on the course at least a couple of miles outside the FAF, in which case doing the PT would not only have been not authorized, it wouldn't have made any sense. Since they seemed to be doing neither, it might have been a good idea if you had clarified the situation with them before you got to the point of doing the PT.

Well it was RV to the FAF not vectors to final course that I was on. The final course was 269 degrees they were having me intercept the FAF at a heading of 030 degrees (hence my original description of being headed away form the approach course) with just clearing me for the approach, change to CTAF and cancel with them in the air or on the ground speech. I needed to do the course reversal!!!

I was also 500 feet higher than that approach altitude and would have been diving to the missed point. Better to do the required course reversal PT and come down in altitude to the charted altitude minimum.

It was Chicago Tracon and they were just trying to get me out of their hair as I was well outside the 30 degree intercept. If they had gotten me that close and inside the 30 degree intercept I would have just joined in.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is "Cleared direct to [IAF / FAF]" equivalent to "Fly heading 300, maintain 3000"?

No. In the first, the pilot is responsible for nav; in the second, the controller is.

The first would seem not to be a "Vector to final."

Neither, by itself, is a "vector to final." If it's VTF, the controller is supposed to say, "This will be [or ] vectors to final" or "Expect vectors to final." If not, the controller is supposed to tell you what other entry to the approach procedure you will get. "I've Got A Secret" is not an authorized game for controllers to play with pilots. And, as noted above, you can't be cleared direct to the FAF as part of VTF -- you must be vectored ("fly heading xxx," etc) to intercept the final approach course outside the FAF.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well it was RV to the FAF not vectors to final course that I was on.

That's not an authorized procedure.

The final course was 269 degrees they were having me intercept the FAF at a heading of 030 degrees (hence my original description of being headed away form the approach course) with just clearing me for the approach, change to CTAF and cancel with them in the air or on the ground speech. I needed to do the course reversal!!!

Darn tootin' you did! Controller screwed up on this one, and the only thing I can say is I hope you learned that next time they try this, you a) sort it out before you get to the FAF, and b) call them after landing and speak to the watch supe about it. Refer them to FAA Order 7110.65, Chapter 5, Section 9, if they give you any guff.

 

[ScottM]

That's not an authorized procedure.
Darn tootin' you did! Controller screwed up on this one, and the only thing I can say is I hope you learned that next time they try this, you a) sort it out before you get to the FAF, and b) call them after landing and speak to the watch supe about it. Refer them to FAA Order 7110.65, Chapter 5, Section 9, if they give you any guff.

The next time I requested an IAF that would give me a better way into the final course. To tell you the truth when they cleared me to the fix I really kept expecting to get vectors that would turn me around. It was when I got the 'cleared for the approach' speech that I knew I was on my own. That happened about 2 NM form the FAF, I had in my head to be ready to execute the PT, so that is what I did. I had not actually flipped to the CTAF yet when ATC called me and asked what I was doing. When I told him, I could tell the cogs were turning and he realized he had screwed up.

 

[dmccormack]

No. In the first, the pilot is responsible for nav; in the second, the controller is.
Neither, by itself, is a "vector to final." If it's VTF, the controller is supposed to say, "This will be [or ] vectors to final" or "Expect vectors to final." If not, the controller is supposed to tell you what other entry to the approach procedure you will get. "I've Got A Secret" is not an authorized game for controllers to play with pilots. And, as noted above, you can't be cleared direct to the FAF as part of VTF -- you must be vectored ("fly heading xxx," etc) to intercept the final approach course outside the FAF.

Agreed.