vapor lock and impossible turn today

airguy

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airguy
Capping off several hours of flying today, two legs from home in my 172, I was stopping in for a splash-and-dash fuel stop at a local ag strip. I dropped in fast, pump is at the end of the strip, 10 gallons as fast as we can pump it, crank it up, fast mag check, and lets go. Temps were high 80's, 2700 MSL field, injected 360 FP, 800 TTSN, 100LL, dual mags.

I've done this more times than I can count. All kinds of weather, all kinds of loads, every situation I can think of at this particular strip - been there and done it. This time everything looked the same, smelled the same, sounded the same, felt the same. I've got 7-10 knots south wind with 3000 feet paved into the wind and 2000 smooth dirt over-run, this is my back yard (figuratively speaking) and I'm all happy-happy.

Today was different. Just as the mains broke ground in my lightly loaded 172 (1 passenger, 25 gallons fuel, no baggage) I thought I heard something funny. Within a few seconds my dad in the passenger seat said "Uh oh, did you hear that?" and by that time the engine was quite noticeably missing. Not sagging rpm, but definitely missing and shaking. Full rich, boost pump, no change. I've still got the overrun ahead to put it down but its questionable if I'll get it stopped. I'm still holding better than 2400 rpm (not surprising at Vy in this airplane) and make the decision to continue, and drift right downwind off the runway while holding Vy for all the energy I can buy. Downrange is light pasture, rough but survivable. I make 400 feet, then 500, engine still missing and shaking but still making power, engine monitor offers no clue about whats happening, looks normal. I'm about 300-400 yards downwind (left crosswind) of the overrun at 500-600 AGL (it's kinda hard to tell when you heart is beating that fast) and start turning back left now, cranked over about 45 degrees with the engine still going but missing. As I get around the 90-degree point I see I have the overrun area made and pulled the engine to idle and said "Engine is dead, we're committed." With 20 degrees flaps dropped in at about 150 feet I just made the asphalt at the end of the overrun on a downwind landing. Rest of the landing sequence was cake.

Freaking engine stubbornly continued to run, and from that point absolutely refused to miss or show any sign of weakness at all. Turned off at the far end of the strip, turned into the wind, full power runup, leaned it, mag check, fuel pump on/off, changing tanks - you name it, I did it - nothing doing, engine was perfect now. I couldn't get so much as a hiccup.

I pulled the cowl, checked plugs, check wires, checked fuel lines, checked induction and air filter, check tank vents, no joy. Never found anything. Chalked it up to vapor lock due to the very short turn-around. Recowled and performed normal (for this aircraft) hot-start and full power runup until CHT's approached normal cruise, departed and flew normally for the last 2 legs.

It's not my first "Oh Crap" emergency landing, but it was my first with a passenger (and family, no less), so this one carried a bit more impact. It was also my first "impossible turn" though I've thought about it an awful lot. In the end it came down to a judgement call - I could put it down in the pasture ahead survivably (though certainly not happily) if the engine went balls-up right-friggin'-now or I could make the runway in 10 more seconds. I can't say what I would do in other circumstances, I just know what I did today - you have to play the cards you are dealt - and it worked. I will say this though - I was fully prepared to wrinkle metal to whatever degree necessary to walk away, I absolutely did not attempt the turnback just to save the airplane - it was a second-by-second analysis of energy management and assessment of plan A versus plan B.

I'm still bothered by the fact that I could not find a smoking gun culprit of the problem, but that's the nature of vapor lock. I'm sure others will critique my decisions, and I'm strangely comfortable with that because I'm here to give a crap about their critique. The decision-making process worked, the planA/planB/planC process worked, and we walked away.
 
Good job, you had power, it was questionable, were committed on take off, had an "out" ahead of you, I'd have done the same thing. Climb till I could safely make the turn (assuming possible) and set it down, figure it out, keep the NTSB less busy.

I had a similar discussion with my GF tonight- if I'm EVER at the point of declaring an emergency, the plane has two purposes at that point, keep those on the ground safe, (who didn't sign up for the "risk" at all) and two keep my passengers and myself safe. If that means a landing in a field or even a totaled plane, so be it.
 
Some times the gremlins just go away.
 
Airguy, first and foremost, glad you are okay.

The decision to lift off when the engine started running rough was "questionable". You stated you were in a toot to get going, fast turn around, quick mag check, ect. Were you also in the mind set to get in the air with a less than perfect airplane? I've done it too. ;) Just asking. :dunno:

When turning back, if the engine had totally quit, would you have made it back to the airport or would we be reading about you and your passenger in the news?

I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but assessment of the situation is what we pilots should do.

If it was VP the boost pump should have cured it instantly, depending on where the pump is located. Maybe Tom can tell us where it is located.

I am not trying to second guess your decision or start a battle, just opening up the discussion. Again, I am very glad it ended well.
 
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Having an engine problem just where you did does make things problematic. If it had come before broke ground, the obvious decision is to chop the throttle. As it was, without being there I, for one, would not second guess you. This kind of situation is why for myself I brief a departure. I'm sure you know your TOLD (take-off landing distance) for your plane so you should have a good idea of what it would take to stop - but you were alrborne and most of us don't figure TOLD from, say, 10 or 20 feet or 50 feet.
Drifting downwind was good decision making because with enough drift your turn back is 180° rather than the keyhole turn often associated with the "impossible turn".
It is unsettling to have such an engine issue - one would almost prefer a known defect.
 
Gals to be reading the story here and not in the news. Hopefully what ever it was that gave you a spat, was isolated and is gone for good.
 
What 172 has a boost pump?

Or vapor lock problems, for that matter (no siphon)?

Vapor lock should kill the whole engine, not make it run rough.
 
What 172 has a boost pump?

Or vapor lock problems, for that matter (no siphon)?

Vapor lock should kill the whole engine, not make it run rough.

My thoughts as well, I have never seen a vapor lock in a 172, I have seen venting problems that prevented the proper fuel flow out of a tank.

A vapor lock requires that the fuel lines have a high point in the system between the tank and the gascolater to trap air, the 172 does not.
 
After fueling it takes a few minutes for suspended water to fall to the bottom of the tank.

I am going to go with the water theory people.

How did it sump a few hours later?
 
After fueling it takes a few minutes for suspended water to fall to the bottom of the tank.

I am going to go with the water theory people.

How did it sump a few hours later?

This reminds me of the late model 172 where the tank will store up to a quart of water and not allow it to enter the fuel lines until that wing is raised, as in the cross wind turn, then the engine quits.
 
Pickup point in storage tanks is quite a bit higher than bottom. Hard to conjure up the circumstances that led to contaminated fuel from the tank. In such circumstances wouldn't it be more likely to be all fuel or all water?


After fueling it takes a few minutes for suspended water to fall to the bottom of the tank.

I am going to go with the water theory people.

How did it sump a few hours later?
 
This reminds me of the late model 172 where the tank will store up to a quart of water and not allow it to enter the fuel lines until that wing is raised, as in the cross wind turn, then the engine quits.

Kind of like this?

tankcondensationanimated.gif


http://www.sumpthis.com/
 
It does not take much condensation to make the engine run rough...were you the first person to fuel from the tank that day?
 
It does not take much condensation to make the engine run rough...were you the first person to fuel from the tank that day?

It is nearly impossible to get water from our re-fueling stations these days, because they all have sumps that trap water, fuses that shut down the delivery systems when water gets into the pump.

Unless they fueled from an old home made system.
 
What 172 has a boost pump?

Or vapor lock problems, for that matter (no siphon)?

Vapor lock should kill the whole engine, not make it run rough.

It depends on the engine and circumstances. "Vapor Lock" is a deceptive name. The symptoms can be a rough running engine or it quits entirely. It is easily corrected by pressurizing the fuel system a boost pump. I have had several VPs from engine out to low fuel pressure. Turn on the boost pump and it's gone.
 
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With your quick mag check, could you possibly have not turned the key 100% all the way to "both"? It could have slipped back to "left" so you were running on only the left mags, accounting for the rough running engine. Don't ask me how I know this. :redface:
 
Seems plausible. But I'd suspect contamination first, especially since it doesn't appear the tanks were sumped. If this really is a fuel injected 172, there are a huge number of sumps.

Geico, vapor lock is the loss of suction in a fuel line due to it being filled with gas or vapor. Vapor has no surface tension and cannot drive a siphon. This is not possible whenever the fuel line is under positive pressure. How is it possible to get any fuel to the engine under that circumstance? Leaving aside for the moment that Cessna 172 fuel lines are always under at least gravity-fed pressure.
 
Seems plausible. But I'd suspect contamination first, especially since it doesn't appear the tanks were sumped. If this really is a fuel injected 172, there are a huge number of sumps.

Geico, vapor lock is the loss of suction in a fuel line due to it being filled with gas or vapor. Vapor has no surface tension and cannot drive a siphon. This is not possible whenever the fuel line is under positive pressure. How is it possible to get any fuel to the engine under that circumstance? Leaving aside for the moment that Cessna 172 fuel lines are always under at least gravity-fed pressure.


It's quite possible to boil the fuel in the fuel lines and get slugs of vapor mixed in with the liquid fuel and cause the engine to run poorly. All you have to do is get the temperature high enough that the fuel vapor pressure approaches the pressure in the fuel lines. You may elect to not call that "vapor lock" if you want.

That's why the bug ridden software in your automobile with that unsafe and unreliable electronic fuel injection does an estimation of the temperature in the fuel rail and raises the fuel pressure and/or increases the injector pulse duration as necessary.
 
Seems plausible. But I'd suspect contamination first, especially since it doesn't appear the tanks were sumped. If this really is a fuel injected 172, there are a huge number of sumps.

Geico, vapor lock is the loss of suction in a fuel line due to it being filled with gas or vapor. Vapor has no surface tension and cannot drive a siphon. This is not possible whenever the fuel line is under positive pressure. How is it possible to get any fuel to the engine under that circumstance? Leaving aside for the moment that Cessna 172 fuel lines are always under at least gravity-fed pressure.

What Capt said and.....

Your definition is not necessarily correct, and certainly not wrong. Like I said the term vapor lock can mean many things. Vapor lok can also be caused by "cavitation" due to suction just before the mechanical fuel pump. To get rid of it we just turn the boost pump on. Some RV's have this issue after refueling and need to run the boost pump until the temps are stabilized in flight.

Many have moved the fuel pump in the tank ( or wing root) like new cars. Anytime there is suction on a fuel line vapor lock can occur. Pressurized the entire fuel system and you eliminate vapor lock from the fuel system.
 
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It is nearly impossible to get water from our re-fueling stations these days, because they all have sumps that trap water, fuses that shut down the delivery systems when water gets into the pump.

Unless they fueled from an old home made system.

I agree but he posted local ag-strip...not sure what set-up they would have.
 
Sorry I missed all the discussion, spent the day working on my RV project. :D

A little clarification. This is a 2001 model 172R , Bendix injection and boost pump, matched injectors by GAMI. When I hit the boost pump the engine continued missing, but to be fair it was only about 15-20 seconds from then until I was turning back and pulled power, so it's possible it was vapor lock and the pump cured it but I wasn't paying attention any more at that point. Vapor lock normally happens on low-wing aircraft where the fuel and fuel pump heat-soak and you boil the fuel on the suction side of the pump, creating low pressure. I did not look at the fuel flow gauge (just a pressure gauge on the injector divider) during this sequence so I can't say what my fuel pressure was. I'm thinking the fuel in the cowling between the pump and the injectors was hot enough to boil and I was getting pressure surges that were resulting in either too-rich (lots of liquid being pushed out) or too-lean (vapor bubble now being pushed out) mixture conditions, until cooler fuel reached the flow divider. Thinking more about it I think it probably resolved itself just about the same time I pulled the throttle to idle for the return landing - but I guarantee you that given the same conditions tomorrow, I'm not waiting to see if it cures itself, I'll take the same action again.

I did sump the tanks after fueling - I always do - but the time frame required for water to settle out varies from a few seconds for a large quantity (which I did not find) to hours for finely suspended (which won't cause problems). This is not exactly a "home-made" fuel setup, it's a 10,000 gallon underground tank with a standard autmotive-style fuel pump in good condition, with an output filter on the hose.

The mag check was terminated with both mags on - this plane has a digital tach with dual mag pickups and has red warning lights for the side that is not producing spark, so you know instantly if you have a dead mag or one turned off. The lights are bright and are aimed at the pilots head position, you're not going to miss them. After I took off and continued the next leg, I climbed to 7500 and went WOTLOP and did an in-flight mag check with completely normal results, so I'm confident I didn't have an ignition issue.

Yes, I was in a hurry, but not to the point where I was cutting corners. I was quick on the fuel stop to be sure, but I sumped the tank (singular - I only put 10 gallons in the left tank because it was a bit lower than the right) and did a mag check - but it did not affect my flying. As soon as the initial shock wore off and I realized I certainly did have a sick engine (climbing through about 50 feet or so), my schedule went out the window and I only had 2 things on my agenda - instant engine failure and straight ahead landing, or continue to nurse it until I had enough energy to make the runway again. The only thing pushing my schedule was getting my dad back home in time for supper, and that wasn't any kind of serious schedule driver. It was certainly an abbreviated stop, I didn't have the engine shutdown more than 4 or 5 minutes - but as I said before I am very familiar with this strip and its options so I was entirely comfortable with that.
 
Engine run rough from a stuck valve? Stuck valves can clear with throttle changes and not return for hours.

BTDT.
 
The decision to lift off when the engine started running rough was "questionable". You stated you were in a toot to get going, fast turn around, quick mag check, ect. Were you also in the mind set to get in the air with a less than perfect airplane? I've done it too. ;) Just asking. :dunno:

When turning back, if the engine had totally quit, would you have made it back to the airport or would we be reading about you and your passenger in the news?

Fair question, and "quotation" fairly earned after previous sparring on here! ;)

My only hurry was to get my dad back home for supper with mom, I had an easy hour to spare but I wanted to get him there and then me back home with daylight to keep working on the canopy on my RV. I'm not saying I won't (or haven't) gone flying with a less-than-perfect airplane, but a missing engine is not even close to being in that category. I didn't notice the engine miss until after the mains were spinning down, it wasn't like I continued a takeoff with a known problem. I cancelled a flight with two passengers in a hurry a couple months back due to a fouled plug, cleaned it and departed an hour late. Schedules don't drive my agenda, but it's a fair question.

Second part - I didn't pull the engine power until I knew for sure I could make the dirt overrun at around the halfway-point on the turnback. At every point prior to that, had the engine canned itself, I had light pasture straight ahead. You would certainly be reading about it, yes - but it would be me complaining about the insurance company and maybe how bad the stitches itched. Once I knew I had the runway overrun made on the downwind landing, I pulled the engine and mentally consigned it to the depths - I did not trust it, I did not need it anymore, therefore it was discarded and no longer available for use. One less distraction to deal with. I even announced to my dad (PPL-ASEL) on intercom "Engine is dead, we're committed" as I did it, he didn't make any comment but I think mostly he just wanted to leave me alone and let me work the problem. At that point the only thing I had to worry about was lining up and managing the energy I had left, and getting it stopped on the runway.

Like I said before - I've thought a hundred thoughts about what I could have done differently, but for the most part I'm happy with what I did adequately. I'm just looking for feedback to learn.
 
One other item I noticed - with 10 knots tailwind on final, you are seriously hauling freight. Ruway disappears under you in an alarming hurry. I would encourage you guys to practice it a little, it's a different animal.
 
I've seen ground tanks leak... was anybody fueled from that tank that day prior to you?...Just asking and trying to help you figure this out.
 
I've seen ground tanks leak... was anybody fueled from that tank that day prior to you?...Just asking and trying to help you figure this out.
EPA has had every used fuel tank out of the ground, or inspected with in the last 5 years.
 
Fair question, and "quotation" fairly earned after previous sparring on here! ;)

Like I said before - I've thought a hundred thoughts about what I could have done differently, but for the most part I'm happy with what I did adequately. I'm just looking for feedback to learn.

Past sparring is always in the past for me. Hell, I can't remember where I left my car keys let alone who I sparred with to hold a grudge. I just spar with everyone and call it good. ;)

You are to be commended for posting your "situation". You made a decision, it worked, and now you posted it for scrutiny and evaluation. You could have kept quiet and said nothing, but none of us who have learned from it. Flying is a constant learning process for all of us, by bring this situation up we can all learn.

When I was a young stupid pilot I had a bad mag check. I knew right away what was wrong because I had just cleaned the plugs. I had switched plug wires. :redface: Even with a bad mag check I decided to complete the mission and fly a buddy 75 miles to pick up an airplane. The engine has two ignition systems so what the heck? Reasonable decision or stupid pilot trick? :dunno:

Bad decision making can lead to catastrophic results.
 
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One other item I noticed - with 10 knots tailwind on final, you are seriously hauling freight. Ruway disappears under you in an alarming hurry. I would encourage you guys to practice it a little, it's a different animal.

You got that right! :yes:
 
I'm sure others will critique my decisions, and I'm strangely comfortable with that because I'm here to give a crap about their critique. The decision-making process worked, the planA/planB/planC process worked, and we walked away.

So, do you think you might do things differently next time? (i.e. take a little more time on the ground, etc.)
 
My guess too. Boost pump should have cured vapor lock after a few seconds.

Per chance, in the rush of the "splash and dash", did one remember to sump the tanks?
Sumping the tanks doesn't do too much good on a "splash and dash"-It takes more than a few minutes for any water/sediment to settle...For a typical 172 you should wait atleast 20 minutes before blasting off.
 
mine as well. You need TIME for any water in the fuel to make it to the 27000 sumps that a Skyhawk has now . . . sounds like water to me . . .
I'd agree, and the vapor lock theory still doesn't make sense to me. Once the engine is running, and a runup is done, there's very little likelihood.

Ryan
 
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