V523 Change Over Point

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PPC1052

Final Approach
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Where is the change over point on V523 between TVT and ACO? DALTS or ZZBEE?
 
It's not a straight line. So it's supposed to be at the bend. But there appear to be two of them.
 
According to FAA Order 7400.11A, V-523 takes the following route:
From Appleton, OH; Tiverton, OH; INT Tiverton 040° and Akron, OH, 233° radials; Akron; Youngstown, OH; to Erie, PA.
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Note that radials in the order are given with respect to true north. The magnetic radials are TVT 043° to ACO 237°. Why the chart looks to have two bends, I don't know, but it's only supposed to have one.
 
PPC1052 said:
Where is the change over point on V523 between TVT and ACO? DALTS or ZZBEE?
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According to my Jeppesen low-altitude chart and the current Americas database the course change is at DALTS and ZZBEE is not part of V523. TVT 048 AKUTE, AKUTE 048 DALTS, DALTS 061 JOSEF, JOSEF 061 ACO
 
It sure does look like two bends on the chart. ZZBEE sounds kinda new. DALTS sounds like it's been around for awhile. The Radio Fix and Holding Data Records may shed some light on it. DALTS and JOSEF have the little arrows indicating facility forming fix. DALTS does not have one from ACO. ZZBEE has none, but it is a DME fix from MFD on the 097r. I'm going to guess that ZZBEE got on the airway to tie an Approach into the enroute structure. And then a bunch of declination/variation issues came up. And then they just "plugged" the fixes into the "Chart Maker." I'd love to see a Low Chart from before ZZBEE got there.
 
luvflyin said:
It sure does look like two bends on the chart. ZZBEE sounds kinda new. DALTS sounds like it's been around for awhile. The Radio Fix and Holding Data Records may shed some light on it. DALTS and JOSEF have the little arrows indicating facility forming fix. DALTS does not have one from ACO. ZZBEE has none, but it is a DME fix from MFD on the 097r. I'm going to guess that ZZBEE got on the airway to tie an Approach into the enroute structure. And then a bunch of declination/variation issues came up. And then they just "plugged" the fixes into the "Chart Maker." I'd love to see a Low Chart from before ZZBEE got there.
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It's a government charting screw-up. Attached is the Jepp en route chart for that segment. Although ZZBEE is on the Jepp chart, which is dated 23 October 2015, TARGETS does not find an 8260-2 for ZZBEE. (It does for DALTS.)V523 JEPP.jpg
 
PPC1052 said:
It's not a straight line. So it's supposed to be at the bend. But there appear to be two of them.
Click to expand...

Looks like three of them to me; I see bends at JOSEF, ZZBEE, and DALTS. According to Order 7350.9G Location Identifiers, ZZBEE is determined by radial and distance from Mansfield VORTAC alone. Nothing from Akron or Tiverton VORs. I suspect there's a charting error here. I believe the airway should be drawn as a straight line from ACO to DALTS, passing through JOSEF and close to but not through ZZBEE, with a segment length of ten miles between JOSEF and DALTS.
 
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aterpster said:
It's a government charting screw-up. Attached is the Jepp en route chart for that segment. Although ZZBEE is on the Jepp chart, which is dated 23 October 2015, TARGETS does not find an 8260-2 for ZZBEE. (It does for DALTS.)View attachment 48240
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I found an 8260-2 Radio Fix And Holding Data Record for ZZBEE. Established in 2012, WP and DME, MFD is the only make-up facility, no holding, no reporting. Required charting is Enroute Low and Controller. Does the "TARGETS" you mention include SIDS and STARS? So far it seems to be a fix about nothing. Being so close to V523 the Chart Builder, man or machine, musta jumped to a conclusion and put it on the Airway.
 
luvflyin said:
I found an 8260-2 Radio Fix And Holding Data Record for ZZBEE. Established in 2012, WP and DME, MFD is the only make-up facility, no holding, no reporting. Required charting is Enroute Low and Controller. Does the "TARGETS" you mention include SIDS and STARS? So far it seems to be a fix about nothing. Being so close to V523 the Chart Builder, man or machine, musta jumped to a conclusion and put it on the Airway.
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Steve posted it in the message preceding yours. My FAA procedures contact says it something Cleveland Center did on its own. He doesn't see any purpose for it. No doubt the FAA chart makers messed up by placing it on the airway.
 
aterpster said:
Steve posted it in the message preceding yours. My FAA procedures contact says it something Cleveland Center did on its own. He doesn't see any purpose for it. No doubt the FAA chart makers messed up by placing it on the airway.
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Yeah. I saw that right after I hit post reply. I was surprised I found it. I thought those weren't available to the general public. I just googled 8260-2 and poof, a list was there.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I saw that right after I hit post reply. I was surprised I found it. I thought those weren't available to the general public. I just googled 8260-2 and poof, a list was there.
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That must be a fairly new feature of the NFDC site. I didn't know about it. Used to be they would just post new or revised 8260-2 for a couple of months, or so.
 
The plot thickens, at least as to the 8260-2 forms on the NFDC site as opposed to those retrieved through the TARGETS program. Attached is AKUTE (on V-523) from TARGETS and from the NFDC site. the NFDC version looks like a junior high school project.
 

Attachments

  • AKUTE.pdf
    2.7 KB · Views: 7
  • OH_AKUTE_ORIG.pdf
    192.5 KB · Views: 6
From what I see on that chart zzbee is not on 523 the triangle is offset from the line and there is no break in the line. Zzbee is just a point in space.

Bob
 
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