Useful Loads when can you actually use 6 seats

Tantalum

Tantalum

Final Approach
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San_Diego_Pilot
I didn't want to muck up the Baron 58 classifieds thread, so I'm starting a new one. Basically, is there any 6 seat plane you can actually put people in all six seats? Or are they really usable four seaters?

In the case of that Baron:
upload_2020-6-12_22-50-27.png

This means if I plan to fly from San Diego to Telluride to go skiing (for example), that's about 600 nm.. or about three and a half hours.. I'll need, realistically, 4.5 hrs of gas to fly that trip, or about 150 gallons once you factor in climb, taxi, etc. So let's run these numbers:

3,936 lbs empty
+900 lbs for gas
+190 lbs for me
+140 lbs for wife
+50 lbs for gear
.. okay, I have about 300 lbs left to play with.

But what if I decide to bring a friend, no one wants to third wheel so that means another couple.. but at this point we won't have W&B to bring another couple..

Which means I'm burning 34 gallons an hour to go less than 170 knots and maintaining two engines just to carry two people. There are many single engine planes that will fit the same bill and burn half the gas. What if I want to fly 900 nm.. what if I need to actually fill the tanks for winds.. maybe the flight to Telluride will have a 40 knot headwind so I need extra gas

What am I missing?

**or is there some "shh, don't ask don't tell rule" where owners are a little more "look the other way" when it comes to W&B calcs?
 
Buy your last airplane first....a Cessna 207. If it fits, it will fly!

(Or a Duke - you'd look good in a duke)
 
If you want to bring that kind of "payload".....not "useful" load you'll want something like a King Air E90.
 
Tantalum said:
I didn't want to muck up the Baron 58 classifieds thread, so I'm starting a new one. Basically, is there any 6 seat plane you can actually put people in all six seats? Or are they really usable four seaters?

In the case of that Baron:
View attachment 86592

This means if I plan to fly from San Diego to Telluride to go skiing (for example), that's about 600 nm.. or about three and a half hours.. I'll need, realistically, 4.5 hrs of gas to fly that trip, or about 150 gallons once you factor in climb, taxi, etc. So let's run these numbers:

3,936 lbs empty
+900 lbs for gas
+190 lbs for me
+140 lbs for wife
+50 lbs for gear
.. okay, I have about 300 lbs left to play with.

But what if I decide to bring a friend, no one wants to third wheel so that means another couple.. but at this point we won't have W&B to bring another couple..

Which means I'm burning 34 gallons an hour to go less than 170 knots and maintaining two engines just to carry two people. There are many single engine planes that will fit the same bill and burn half the gas. What if I want to fly 900 nm.. what if I need to actually fill the tanks for winds.. maybe the flight to Telluride will have a 40 knot headwind so I need extra gas

What am I missing?

**or is there some "shh, don't ask don't tell rule" where owners are a little more "look the other way" when it comes to W&B calcs?
Click to expand...
Leave off 100 pounds of fuel and take a bathroom break halfway. Who wants to sit in a plane for 4.5 straight hours anyway?
 
Tantalum said:
What am I missing?

**or is there some "shh, don't ask don't tell rule" where owners are a little more "look the other way" when it comes to W&B calcs?
Click to expand...

Find a better plane. ;)

I flew a Baron 58 for a while that had 1810 lbs of useful load. It would do 180+ knots at 30 gph and that was ROP. The engines didn't have a good balance on fuel injectors so it wouldn't do LOP well.

I flew me plus 5 on an Angel Flught mission once, but two were kids and I had burned off ~2 hrs of fuel. I also moved one of my daughters out of her dorm with it once too; had a harder time fitting everything in the Kit Sportage when we got back.

It's normal for most GA planes to be able to either fill the tanks or fill the seats, but not both.



Wayne
 
Early Cherokee 6/260:
Gross 3400
MT 1779
Useful 1621
Full gas 504 (5.5hrs)
Available payload 1117

The 6/300 trades off 70 lbs for 10 knots but still not real fast. Later models got fatter, but 1500 lb useful is pretty common through the 70s. Cessna 207 is similar, but it's a hideous high wing.

Twins based on singles usually don't seem to be a good compromise. The commander 500 & aerostar can carry a lot, but they're almost in a different class.

Of course all the planes I mentioned are technically 7 seaters....
 
I have a 1980 Saratoga and I travel with 4 adults with Luggage and pull off 30 gallons of fuel and plan for 2.5 hour fuel stops. I have also done 6 person (3 couples), no luggage, pull off 30 gallon and fly 2.5 hours (baseball game).
 
Get a c or d aztec with 2,000 lb useful.

144 gallons in the tank is about 6 hours at a Burn of 25 gph
2000-864 in fuel leaves 1136 in the cabin or an average of 190 per person for their body and stuff

If you leave one hour of fuel behind,you can add 25lbs per person
 
Tantalum said:
Basically, is there any 6 seat plane you can actually put people in all six seats? Or are they really usable four seaters?
Click to expand...
Beech 18.

Technically, mine is a 7 seater. I have flown it with all 7 seats filled, but no luggage.

I have also flown it with 6 adults, luggage and 4 hours of fuel. I was within 100 lbs of GW on that one.
 
Tantalum said:
I didn't want to muck up the Baron 58 classifieds thread, so I'm starting a new one. Basically, is there any 6 seat plane you can actually put people in all six seats? Or are they really usable four seaters?

In the case of that Baron:
View attachment 86592

This means if I plan to fly from San Diego to Telluride to go skiing (for example), that's about 600 nm.. or about three and a half hours.. I'll need, realistically, 4.5 hrs of gas to fly that trip, or about 150 gallons once you factor in climb, taxi, etc. So let's run these numbers:

3,936 lbs empty
+900 lbs for gas
+190 lbs for me
+140 lbs for wife
+50 lbs for gear
.. okay, I have about 300 lbs left to play with.

But what if I decide to bring a friend, no one wants to third wheel so that means another couple.. but at this point we won't have W&B to bring another couple..

Which means I'm burning 34 gallons an hour to go less than 170 knots and maintaining two engines just to carry two people. There are many single engine planes that will fit the same bill and burn half the gas. What if I want to fly 900 nm.. what if I need to actually fill the tanks for winds.. maybe the flight to Telluride will have a 40 knot headwind so I need extra gas

What am I missing?

**or is there some "shh, don't ask don't tell rule" where owners are a little more "look the other way" when it comes to W&B calcs?
Click to expand...

Here's the numbers for my Aztec, which I've posted before. Make your own determination if it meets your criteria.

Gross 5200
Zero Fuel Weight 4400
Empty weight 3189
Max fuel capacity 188 gallons (in 4 tanks) = 1100 lbs
Max fuel capacity (usable) 177 gallons
Normal flight planning fuel consumption 24 gallons per hour all in start-up to shut-down (I run LOP at altitudes typically ~10,000 +/-)
Cruise speed at that altitude and fuel burn 153-155 knots TAS.
Upping the fuel burn to 26 gph ups the cruise to 160 knots.
Upping the fuel burn to 28 gph ups the cruise to 163-165 knots.
I'm rarely in that much of a hurry.
Typical max flight leg for me is 3.5 to 4 hours.
Typical fuel load at departure for me is 800 lbs
That leaves 1200+ lbs payload remaining.

Unlike the 4 Piper Cherokee derivatives I've owned prior, all of which start to get a bit "mushy" in their handling in the last 100 lbs approaching gross, my Aztec is rock solid stable handling loaded to the max. I've had 5 adult guys + a teenager in it on a 2400 nm week long round trip to Oshkosh.

Post #86 on this thread has some interior pics and dimension info of my plane.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...rue-6-person-luggage-light-twin.120971/page-3
It is a true 6-seater. The rearmost seat is big enough with enough headroom to accommodate my 6'4" ~240 lbs without hitting the headliner with my headset band. The room and load carrying capability come with a speed penalty compared to a Baron.

The only other "commonly available" light twin that I think truly compares with respect to utility and usefulness is the Cessna 310. However, they sell for a premium, they go faster, the later ones with the bigger engines use more fuel, and the cabin interior isn't quite as large.

@Ted DuPuis has had one of each and can speak to the comparison and the differences (as he has in prior posts on this forum). They are both great airplanes.
 
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I have flown a Matrix (unpressurized Malibu) with 5 adults and luggage plus 3 hours fuel.

If you are the last to get in as the PIC, you have to be very careful climbing on the air stair.....
 
I fly a multi million dollar business jet that has 10 seats and has a 400 lb useful load with full fuel.
 
Tantalum said:
This means if I plan to fly from San Diego to Telluride to go skiing (for example), that's about 600 nm.. or about three and a half hours.. I'll need, realistically, 4.5 hrs of gas to fly that trip, or about 150 gallons once you factor in climb, taxi, etc. So let's run these numbers:

3,936 lbs empty
+900 lbs for gas
+190 lbs for me
+140 lbs for wife
+50 lbs for gear
.. okay, I have about 300 lbs left to play with.

But what if I decide to bring a friend, no one wants to third wheel so that means another couple.. but at this point we won't have W&B to bring another couple..
Click to expand...
Just ran the numbers you specify. My wife, me, you and your wife could make the trip in my plane with IFR reserves and 365 lbs of stuff/extra people or extra gas. That number should improve a little when I get her re-weighed soon. That would be in the 175-182 KTAS range.
 
Radar Contact said:
Just ran the numbers you specify. My wife, me, you and your wife could make the trip in my plane with IFR reserves and 365 lbs of stuff/extra people or extra gas. That number should improve a little when I get her re-weighed soon. That would be in the 175-182 KTAS range.
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Is that a 310 in your pic? I've read great things about the 310..

Here is my *extremely unpopular* PoA opinion: The Bonanza and Baron are the most over-rated airplanes in the GA world. Doesn't make them bad planes, but when you break them down objectively I feel their god-like veneration is unearned. They look pretty on the ramp, but are surprisingly uncomfortable inside (for their size) and the CG loading issues, and as we see in this Baron 58 example, the fuel burn / speed / load just doesn't impress me. The Malibu will be faster, burn less, and offer pressurization. But I digress. Thanks for your reply. There are some beautiful 310 out there (and also some sadly very neglected ones :()
 
Tantalum said:
Is that a 310 in your pic? I've read great things about the 310..
Click to expand...
It is. ‘73 Q model NA. We love it. Been upgrading things the past 3 years of ownership to make it our forever plane. Just put 34 hours on in one month since picking her up from paint. :)
 
Radar Contact said:
It is. ‘73 Q model NA. We love it. Been upgrading things the past 3 years of ownership to make it our forever plane. Just put 34 hours on in one month since picking her up from paint. :)
Click to expand...

34 hours? You’ve been busy Kev!

I flew my 310Q HOU-MEI-SAV-HOU this weekend. We did the SAV-HOU nonstop. 4.2 hours, 108 gal, 185 KTAS. 24GPH in cruise.

Love the paint job you did. I’ll be taking mine there in the next 2 years. The price they offered me was pretty good. I’m planning to put the VG’s on mine as well.

Enjoy the plane. We are doing the similar thing y’all are by trying to make it the forever plane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Fracpilot said:
34 hours? You’ve been busy Kev!

I flew my 310Q HOU-MEI-SAV-HOU this weekend. We did the SAV-HOU nonstop. 4.2 hours, 108 gal, 185 KTAS. 24GPH in cruise.

Love the paint job you did. I’ll be taking mine there in the next 2 years. The price they offered me was pretty good. I’m planning to put the VG’s on mine as well.

Enjoy the plane. We are doing the similar thing y’all are by trying to make it the forever plane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Most I’ve flown that quickly since owning her. First oil change 1 month from annual sign off is the beginning of a good year.

Sounds like Y’all had a good trip. I’ve been meaning to take my wife down to SAV...she’s never been. Love how long the legs are in our planes.

I think they’ll treat you right down there when you get her painted. What a fun transformation. I’m still figuring out the VG/flare. I think the key is taking a full 20 mph off your normal short final speed. Seems unnatural at first but that was my best landing. Still need to take her out for stalls.
 
Radar Contact said:
Most I’ve flown that quickly since owning her. First oil change 1 month from annual sign off is the beginning of a good year.

Sounds like Y’all had a good trip. I’ve been meaning to take my wife down to SAV...she’s never been. Love how long the legs are in our planes.

I think they’ll treat you right down there when you get her painted. What a fun transformation. I’m still figuring out the VG/flare. I think the key is taking a full 20 mph off your normal short final speed. Seems unnatural at first but that was my best landing. Still need to take her out for stalls.
Click to expand...

Great trip indeed. SAV is a great town. It was packed this past weekend. I hear the crazy time there is St Pattys day.

I recently did some one on one 310 instruction doing lots of SE work, air work, and manual gear extension. We were light and one thing I notice is that I can’t climb should I lose the left engine. It took all it had just to maintain altitude and airspeed with full power on the right engine. My right engine is at TBO so I know I’ve lost some horse power. Looking at the STC data, I believe the VG’s would make all of the difference to give me a little more control should I lose the left engine. If you’re saying take off 20 Kts, then that reaffirms the data.


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How was your experience at KSAV? The Wife has always wanted to go but the comments in Avweb are not positive.
 
Morgan3820 said:
How was your experience at KSAV? The Wife has always wanted to go but the comments in Avweb are not positive.
Click to expand...

I’ve had good experiences with Sheltair at SAV. I’ve never stayed overnight, either Angel Flight or dropping my wife off for a conference.
 
Groundpounder said:
I fly a multi million dollar business jet that has 10 seats and has a 400 lb useful load with full fuel.
Click to expand...
What's your typical fuel/pax load like?

bradg33 said:
Twin Bonanza
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*really* cool plane, you're lucky. I hear they're hard to come by in good condition and the magnesium parts can be expensive. Huge planes though, very comfortable on the inside

Also, that augmented exhaust from the geared engines is bada$$!
 
Tantalum said:
What's your typical fuel/pax load like?
Click to expand...

4 pax and 3 hour flights. For the most part the only time we'd have an issue is if we need the max range of the airplane and are carrying a full load of pax, and it hasn't happened yet, and probably won't ever.
 
Tantalum said:
*really* cool plane, you're lucky. I hear they're hard to come by in good condition and the magnesium parts can be expensive. Huge planes though, very comfortable on the inside

Also, that augmented exhaust from the geared engines is bada$$!
Click to expand...

You just have to know where to look for good ones. They can be had surprisingly inexpensively.

Mine is an earlier model, so it doesn't even have mufflers. Straight pipes directly into the augmenter tubes. It's not quiet...(though cabin noise isn't bad).
 
Morgan3820 said:
How was your experience at KSAV? The Wife has always wanted to go but the comments in Avweb are not positive.
Click to expand...

My wife loved it. SAV has a lot of history and culture. My only complaint is the fuel at both FBOs is stupid expensive. I negotiate a rate with Sheltair and it’s still expensive but better than retail. They were very kind to offer what they did. There’s an airport about 10 Nm wear of SAV with cheap fuel and then you pay the overnight fees at SAV. They get you either way.

Stay at the Hyatt river front or similar. Lots of great sites there. SAV was packed last weekend.


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