Use of parachutes

cwyckham

cwyckham

Line Up and Wait
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cwyckham
Hello, I'm new to this board, but some of you may know me from that other board where I used to be quite active. I've now moved from the US where I did my PPL-ASEL and PPL-G to New Zealand and am flying with the Auckland Aero Club. They do a fair amount of aerobatics training in a Cessna 152 aerobat. They also have a Slingsby, but it doesn't see much use. A rating is required in order to carry passengers in aerobatic flight in NZ, and I was thinking of training for that rating. It'll take about 10 hours of flight time. However, I've just discovered that they don't use parachutes.

Am I wrong to think that's a bit odd? There's no legal requirement for parachutes during aerobatics in NZ. One of the more junior instructors is trying to get some, but the president of the club thinks they're silly so I'm not sure he'll be able to find funding for them. Apparently almost nobody wears parachutes while flying aerobatics in NZ. Is this as nuts as it sounds, or am I just being a sissy? Are parachutes a valid safety requirement when doing aerobatics or is the FAA rule silly?

I can't afford to buy my own. I'll be a safer pilot overall if I have some aerobatics training. Is it worth doing the training with no parachutes?

I just don't know enough about the risks to make this decision on my own, so I'd appreciate any feedback. If somebody could point me to some authoritative resources, perhaps I could convince the "powers that be" at the club that they should buy some.
 
cwyckham said:
I just don't know enough about the risks to make this decision on my own, so I'd appreciate any feedback.
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I don't have enough experience to give you a ton of feedback, but... While I've gone up with Chip in his Extra a couple of times with a parachute, I have serious doubts about my ability to exit the plane in a hurry due to my long legs (I have to do some twisting to get into the plane at all.)

But, I still fly. You are doing things that many airplanes can't handle, and you're certainly pushing the limits of the flight envelope a lot more, but IMHO a good instructor is probably more important than a chute.

Plus, Chip said that if he bails out and I can recover and land the plane I can have it. Since that's currently my best chance at owning an aerobatic airplane... :goofy:
 
Well, Sean D. Tucker used his to great effect earlier this year. So there's evidence that they have saved at least one pilot. Maybe Diana, Chip, Ken or one of the others will chime in here.
 
Based on the Slingsby's past record here in the US with the USAF, I would definately add the insurance of a chute.
 
I will admit that I sometimes to aerobatics without a chute, which is legal if you're flying solo. HOWEVER, I think you have to distinguish what kind of aerobatics you're doing. It's one thing to do a couple loops or rolls, quite another to make your first run through the IAC Intermediate sequence. If you're flying a C152 Aerobat, I don't think you can get yourself into anything unrecoverable if you have some altitude -- unless you have some kind of structural or control failure.

So my question to you is how good is the airplane? A well maintained low time C152 Aerobat that has been conscientiously flown should give you little cause for worry. However, a high time, used and abuse, mx-ignored C152 Aerobat would be a different story. In between, well, how comfortable are you with the risk?

If you DO go with a chute, make sure you frequently practice emergency egress.

And I would probably wear a chute in a Slingsby on every flight, aerobatic or not.
 
Ken Ibold said:
If you DO go with a chute, make sure you frequently practice emergency egress.
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How do you practice that, especially single-pilot?
 
cwyckham said:
I've now moved from the US where I did my PPL-ASEL and PPL-G to New Zealand and am flying with the Auckland Aero Club.
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My home town !!! In fact the Aero Club bought that building from me about 7 years ago. Before that I used to run the flying school there.
They do a fair amount of aerobatics training in a Cessna 152 aerobat. They also have a Slingsby, but it doesn't see much use. A rating is required in order to carry passengers in aerobatic flight in NZ, and I was thinking of training for that rating. It'll take about 10 hours of flight time.
Click to expand...
The ten hour course is really well worth doing. It will teach you all the basics from spin recoveries right through all the standard club maneuvers like rolls, loops,stall turns and probably flicks and half cubans. At the end of it you won't be competition ready but you will be able to have a lot of good safe fun.
However, I've just discovered that they don't use parachutes.
Am I wrong to think that's a bit odd? There's no legal requirement for parachutes during aerobatics in NZ. One of the more junior instructors is trying to get some, but the president of the club thinks they're silly so I'm not sure he'll be able to find funding for them. Apparently almost nobody wears parachutes while flying aerobatics in NZ.
Click to expand...
I have done hundreds of hours of aerobatics in the UK, South Africa and New Zealand and have never worn a parachute. Lots of my aero time has been in the Bonanza and I very much doubt that a successful egress would be much of a possibility in the event of an in flight breakup which would be pretty much the only condition for which I would consider it. Most other circumstances you should be able to fly to the ground.
Is this as nuts as it sounds, or am I just being a sissy? Are parachutes a valid safety requirement when doing aerobatics or is the FAA rule silly?
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Now you are living in the land of the REAL men :D I wouldn't say the FAA rule is 'silly', just maybe a little over cautious and restrictive.

I can't afford to buy my own. I'll be a safer pilot overall if I have some aerobatics training. Is it worth doing the training with no parachutes?
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Definitely worth it. You will have lots of good safe fun and learn to become a better pilot.

I just don't know enough about the risks to make this decision on my own, so I'd appreciate any feedback. If somebody could point me to some authoritative resources, perhaps I could convince the "powers that be" at the club that they should buy some.
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Sorry, don't know of any authoritative resources, just many opinions which may all differ. I doubt that you will have much luck persuading the club committee that the US way is the way to do it, and by the way, have you tried wearing a chute in a C152. I don't know how big you are, but I don't think there would be much room left for you and the instructor.
Stephen.
PS Is Joe Oldfield still instructing there. If so say Hi from me.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Park on the grass! :yes:

How is practicing by yourself different from practicing with others?
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Self-administered dope slap! I was thinking you were actually practicing this in the air with the wind howling past you, trying to slam the door/canopy shut!:hairraise: If you're not with others in that situation, it's pretty hard to keep the plane under control! (I don't think you have an autopilot, do you?)
 
gprellwitz said:
Self-administered dope slap! I was thinking you were actually practicing this in the air with the wind howling past you, trying to slam the door/canopy shut!:hairraise: If you're not with others in that situation, it's pretty hard to keep the plane under control! (I don't think you have an autopilot, do you?)
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Ooo, can I admin a dope slap too?!?!?

In a Pitts, the canopy would quickly depart if it opened in flight. Now THERE's a 3 ASU (or more) mistake. The practice is basically practicing extricating yourself from your headset, seat belts and cockpit as quickly as possible. Some people do it almost every time they exit the airplane on shutdown.
 
Ken Ibold said:
In a Pitts, the canopy would quickly depart if it opened in flight. Now THERE's a 3 ASU (or more) mistake.
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Funny you should mention that. I'm told that that is exactly what happened to a guy at my airfield (Ardmore, New Zealand). It was a two seater Pitts and he'd forgotten to latch the cockpit before take-off. He was taking a passenger up and had just briefed the passenger that if he saw the canopy come off he should immediately bail out. They were at about 200' AGL when the canopy came off and the pilot was screaming "Stay in the plane, stay in the plane!"

Luckily, he stayed in the plane and they landed safely.

Oops.

Chris
 
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Bonanza said:
PS Is Joe Oldfield still instructing there. If so say Hi from me.
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Yep, Joe is still here. I've only flown with him once. I'm lucky enough to have an office in the building on the side facing the road, so I hang out with those guys quite a bit during the week when I should be working (I'm an aircraft design/certification engineer). I love being able to pop out for some circuits (aka pattern work) on my lunch hour.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
... However, I've just discovered that they don't use parachutes.... Am I wrong to think that's a bit odd? ... Are parachutes a valid safety requirement when doing aerobatics or is the FAA rule silly?
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Well, you don't have to wear a parachute if you do aerobatics by yourself here in the US.... but regarding parachute wear I've got one comment....

I'd rather bailout of an airplane than die in it.... even if I'm the one that screwed up badly enough to throw away a perfectly good airplane. Wearing a chute is the only thing that gives me that option...

You be the judge.
 
Had to take my chute along when first test-flying the RV8. Bailing out of it wouldn't worry me--slide the canopy back and away you go.

Trying to fast-egress from my 172 while it was in a spin due to having lost a wing. . . I'd give my chances of a successful egress AND being able to still pop the chute at about ten, maybe twenty percent.

Slightly higher on the Cardinal, for obvious reasons.

-JD
 
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