Use it or lose it

DrMack

DrMack

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Dec 2, 2011
Messages
552
Location
KRBD
Display Name
Display name:
DrMack
Proficiency, that is. Please let's not confuse this thread with the topic of currency.

Had a good reminder two days ago why my crusty ole CFII admonished me to file IFR every time I fly XC, even in CAVU. To amplify his advice for myself, I even make an effort to request an IAP at every destination.

I hadn't flown for about a month and did two legs on Saturday where the ceilings dropped to just above minimums, a straight-in ILS at one airport and an ILS with circle to land at the other. While the two approaches went off without a hitch, I realized over the last two days that I did not execute nearly as well as I did during training. Both approaches were stable but I was nagged by something during the flight that I couldn't put my finger on until yesterday. I didn't call out my altitudes and fix passages and it wasn't until I broke out for the circling maneuver that I realized that I had forgotten what heading to use for the missed if I needed to do it. Sure, I had the plate right in front of me, but I was too focused on maintaining visual with the runway through the slag during the circling maneuver to take even a moment to look it up.

The point is, since I don't fly daily like a professional pilot, it doesn't take very long for the synapse states associated with these little details, forged during training and subsequent practice, to fade from the cortex. So I'm determined yet again to perfect this confounded art. Thus, I am resolved to again soon become the bane of the D10 TRACON controllers as the guy who always wants an IAP, rain or shine.

So my questions to the community are as follows:

1. For all the 75-100 hr/yr folks like me out there, how long after flying your last IAP do you begin to feel rusty?

2. For the approach controllers here, are guys like me who always request an IAP even in CAVU, considered a burden on the controllers and the system, so should we not be surprised if we are treated like FLIBs?

3. For CFIIs, is my CFII the only one of you who tells all of his students as they go out the door with their new tickets to always, always, always file and fly IFR (with local exceptions for training and sightseeing of course)?

4. And then there is the "unable" scenarios when it is CAVU: when TRACON says "unable" to an IAP request, how hard should a pilot press for it? In FAA Order JO 7110.65U (4-8-11), controllers are advised, "Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require." So if we are IFR but not in IMC, are IAP requests considered "practice"?


 
1. For all the 75-100 hr/yr folks like me out there, how long after flying your last IAP do you begin to feel rusty? > I don't allow it to reach that stage. I am flying every 1-2 weeks and shoot approaches consistently. I file at least once a month to maintain proficiency and do an IPC yearly. I just don't want to end up in the chronicles of the NTSB!

2. For the approach controllers here, are guys like me who always request an IAP even in CAVU, considered a burden on the controllers and the system, so should we not be surprised if we are treated like FLIBs? > There is maybe a handful of times that I have been "unable" to receive practice approaches. The controller is working multiple freq's and is simply slammed. I understand completely, No biggie, I just go do the approaches on my own at non-towered fields.

3. For CFI's, is my CFII the only one of you who tells all of his students as they go out the door with their new tickets to always, always, always file and fly IFR (with local exceptions for training and sightseeing of course)? New ticket is the Key word! File regularly and you become more used to the IFR system.

4. And then there is the "unable" scenarios when it is CAVU: when TRACON says "unable" to an IAP request, how hard should a pilot press for it? In FAA OrderJO 7110.65U (4-8-11), controllers are advised, "Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require." So if we are IFR but not in IMC, are IAP requests considered "practice"? > See answer to question #2. If you filed it doesen't matter that it is CAVU, your IFR! Regarding "practice" approaches, this should help...

http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2011/111007ifr-fix-practice-instrument-approaches.html
 
Last edited:
I have a friend who is a great safety pilot and we go out at least every couple of months and shoot some approaches.

I don't generally file all the time, but do tend to use FF on any cross country so I still get practice in the system.
 
I try to fly at least once a week for a couple hours, IFR. It's almost always CAVU here (except today, but them clouds are icy!). I usually shoot 1 approach during that flight if not two. I don't mind getting re routed because I need to build time anyway so whatever. I haven't ever had a problem in the Phoenix area getting the IAP.. there are so many practice approaches here anyway all the time what's one more? Granted unless I'm with a safety pilot they don't count for currency but it helps keep me strong in it. I got the instrument rating for a reason, and I don't want to lose that ability to do it safely.
 
CT Arrow said:
If you filed it doesen't matter that it is CAVU, your IFR!
Click to expand...
That is why I asked the question. Even though I am IFR, when ATC is dishing out visual approaches, is it bad form to persist in a request for some other type of IAP? I know the controllers have a job to do and the safety of all in the system is top of mind and I'm certainly not suggesting that they are being recalcitrant when they respond to my request for an IAP with "unable". So in a tactical sense, refusing to handle an IAP when CAVU prevails is logical, but in the strategic sense, isn't it better for everybody if more IAPs are executed than fewer? Again, I'm not talking about "practice" approaches for logging currency, I'm rather more interested in just executing the procedures to maintain proficiency of flows, muscle memory, configuration control and stability in general.

Maybe it's just me, or those who are also based at airports like KRBD, which lies under the shelf at DFW, but I don't think I ever flew into our home airport without getting vectored in by TRACON, even when I was VFR-only. So maybe this is not an issue at all for most airports around the country. When I fly to destinations where there isn't a nearby class B airspace I usually ask for and receive any IAP I desire, but I never knew (and still don't) if such requests are considered a luxury option by high volume TRACONs like D10.
 
I've requested approaches when it was CAVU. Sometimes for a reason, and sometimes because I just wanted to load it into the GPS and make sure I know what i'm doing. Controllers have always been happy to comply. Unless you specifically request to cancel IFR, and then request a 'practice approach' it is still a real approach. So don't get lazy and bust altitudes.

"For a reason" would be a night approach to an unfamiliar airport right next to the mountains. Even though it was CAVU I decided the safest route was to request and fly a full approach.
 
Last edited:
I don't post much, but I am in the same boat as you are, so I thought I would share.

1. I begin to feel rusty pretty quick. To combat this I file for any cross country. Usually that ends up being at least once a month.

2. If I do go up to practice approaches. I try to do it during what I would consider "off peak" hours. Usually that ends up being late afternoon or night. If they are slammed on the radio, I dont bother.

3. My CFI told me the same thing. While I am not going to file for a dinner run, I do for all cross countries, even when its CAVU. I actually like filing IFR for cross countries better than just going VFR because it helps out with airspace (for me, I am under a bravo shelf) and TFR nonsense. I know that VFR flight following will do that as well, but IFR they can drop me.

4. I have never heard "unable". If I did, I would not press a controller if a visual approach could be made. If they tell me unable, I would assume that they are slammed and I don't want to add to that. I would just try to get my approaches in at another time.

Since I live in a part of the country that doesn't see a lot of actual, I also schedule time with my CFI in a sim. I find this very helpful. This way I can shoot approaches to minimums and not have to wait on the weather to deteriorate.
 
DrMack said:
That is why I asked the question. Even though I am IFR, when ATC is dishing out visual approaches, is it bad form to persist in a request for some other type of IAP? I know the controllers have a job to do and the safety of all in the system is top of mind and I'm certainly not suggesting that they are being recalcitrant when they respond to my request for an IAP with "unable". So in a tactical sense, refusing to handle an IAP when CAVU prevails is logical, but in the strategic sense, isn't it better for everybody if more IAPs are executed than fewer? Again, I'm not talking about "practice" approaches for logging currency, I'm rather more interested in just executing the procedures to maintain proficiency of flows, muscle memory, configuration control and stability in general.

Maybe it's just me, or those who are also based at airports like KRBD, which lies under the shelf at DFW, but I don't think I ever flew into our home airport without getting vectored in by TRACON, even when I was VFR-only. So maybe this is not an issue at all for most airports around the country. When I fly to destinations where there isn't a nearby class B airspace I usually ask for and receive any IAP I desire, but I never knew (and still don't) if such requests are considered a luxury option by high volume TRACONs like D10.
Click to expand...

How often do you fly with a safety pilot so you can actually log some approaches?
 
I'm curious as the number of hours the posters on this thread have. I'm betting the more hours of total time the less number of approaches are needed for practice but I'm willing to be surprised about that.
 
DrMack said:
Proficiency, that is. Please let's not confuse this thread with the topic of currency. Very good, because the one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

So my questions to the community are as follows:

1. For all the 75-100 hr/yr folks like me out there, how long after flying your last IAP do you begin to feel rusty?

2. For the approach controllers here, are guys like me who always request an IAP even in CAVU, considered a burden on the controllers and the system, so should we not be surprised if we are treated like FLIBs?

3. For CFIIs, is my CFII the only one of you who tells all of his students as they go out the door with their new tickets to always, always, always file and fly IFR (with local exceptions for training and sightseeing of course)?

4. And then there is the "unable" scenarios when it is CAVU: when TRACON says "unable" to an IAP request, how hard should a pilot press for it? In FAA Order JO 7110.65U (4-8-11), controllers are advised, "Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require." So if we are IFR but not in IMC, are IAP requests considered "practice"?
Click to expand...

1. For all the 75-100 hr/yr folks like me out there, how long after flying your last IAP do you begin to feel rusty?

I can't answer this one from the perspective of a 75-100 hr/yr pilot because I fly several hundred hours per year. From my perspective, it is noticeable after a couple two or three weeks.

3. For CFIIs, is my CFII the only one of you who tells all of his students as they go out the door with their new tickets to always, always, always file and fly IFR (with local exceptions for training and sightseeing of course)?

No he is not. Your comfort level using "the system" is a very important part of instrument flying proficiency. If you're flying less that 150 hours or so a year, it will be very hard to maintain IFR proficiency without taking advantage of every opportunity that is afforded you.

4. And then there is the "unable" scenarios when it is CAVU: when TRACON says "unable" to an IAP request, how hard should a pilot press for it?...

What part of "UNABLE" don't you understand? :D

I've often wonder why guys who don't fly for a living think they can maintain IFR proficiency with a minimum about of flying when us guys who fly hundreds of hours every year have to submit to recurrent training at least once a year and, in many cases, every 6 months.
 
Last edited:
I have a very simple rule, and it works quite well:

Once a month, no matter what, I fly with a CFI-IA and practice approaches, holds, and emergencies.

It doesn't matter if I've flown 20 hours a particular month, or none at all--that's what I do. And if I've not flown in a few weeks, I add landing and stall practice.

Automatically, you will always easily be current, and you will also be proficient, having at least two or three approaches per month.
 
I went over two years without flying an approach or imc and almost a year of no flying of any kind. Got in a new plane to get an ipc and a checkout for insurance, and the cfii had to check to make sure the HSI wasn't broken. Then again I'm also the guy that didn't golf for 6 months and shot 1 over my first round back playing again, and bowled a 205 after 10 years off from bowling. Once I know it I know it. I fly with a cfii, well, never.
 
EdFred said:
I went over two years without flying an approach or imc and almost a year of no flying of any kind. Got in a new plane to get an ipc and a checkout for insurance, and the cfii had to check to make sure the HSI wasn't broken. Then again I'm also the guy that didn't golf for 6 months and shot 1 over my first round back playing again, and bowled a 205 after 10 years off from bowling. Once I know it I know it. I fly with a cfii, well, never.
Click to expand...

Lucky you.

In my line of business, you would be known as a virtuoso.
 
EdFred said:
Except I have all the rhythm of Steve Martin in The Jerk.
Click to expand...

If he had bad rythm in that movie, it must have been good acting. Have you ever heard him play banjo? :)
 
EppyGA said:
How often do you fly with a safety pilot so you can actually log some approaches?
Click to expand...
Every two to three months, but maybe I need to do that more often.
 
spiderweb said:
I have a very simple rule, and it works quite well:

Once a month, no matter what, I fly with a CFI-IA and practice approaches, holds, and emergencies.

It doesn't matter if I've flown 20 hours a particular month, or none at all--that's what I do. And if I've not flown in a few weeks, I add landing and stall practice.

Automatically, you will always easily be current, and you will also be proficient, having at least two or three approaches per month.
Click to expand...
I like your way of dealing with this and I'm going to try it.
 
I had no trouble going from two approaches short of legal currency to completing a checkout and IPC in a new airplane.

I think a safe minimum for myself is an hour per month of dedicated hood time. That's enough to knock out a series of maneuvers and two approaches.
 
jtheune said:
I'm curious as the number of hours the posters on this thread have. I'm betting the more hours of total time the less number of approaches are needed for practice but I'm willing to be surprised about that.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's affected so much but total time but rather by IMC experience. I suspect everyone feels a little oxidation after a month or two but someone who's been flying several approaches a month prior to an IMC hiatus will recover to their prior skill level much more quickly than someone who doesn't have a lot of IMC cruise and approach experience in total.
 
This is interesting to me since I've recently made the transition from being a 500-600 hour per year pilot to probably closer to 100 hours per year.

From August until November I didn't fly at all, and then we flew the Aztec a total of 8 hours. Really I hadn't flown anything significant in August, just a photo mission in the 310. Then I didn't fly until the end of December when the 310's engines were finished and then I flew 30 hours in about a week for test flights and then going to Belize and back. I'll admit to feeling a bit rusty after having had what amounted to 40 hours in the second half of last year, spread out to end up being a couple of trips and not getting the normal serious IFR and such I'm used to. But what's benefitted me in my case was that I was flying so regularly for so long that flying got ingrained pretty heavily. Add lots of actual IMC, icing, storms, etc. I fully agree with Lance - having about 15% of my total time as actual IMC does make me very comfortable with it.

I do think I need to come up with some sort of way to keep my proficiency up, and probably the best way to do that is to continue filing everywhere (which I did anyway) and then also make a habit of shooting approaches even when I don't need to. In my case flying a twin, I also want to get some sim time for V1 cut practice.
 
Last edited:
Ted, Ted, Ted, just can't help myself. V1 cuts in a 310, really?:rofl: Yes , I know what you are talking about but, some here may actually believe that a C310 has a V1 speed.
Wait just a second while I zip up my flame suit.....Ok, go ahead, I am ready.:wink2:

BTW, it was good to hear from you.

Ronnie
 
ronnieh said:
Ted, Ted, Ted, just can't help myself. V1 cuts in a 310, really?:rofl: Yes , I know what you are talking about but, some here may actually believe that a C310 has a V1 speed.
Wait just a second while I zip up my flame suit.....Ok, go ahead, I am ready.:wink2:
Click to expand...

Oh, I always call out "V1 - ROTATE!" just to make my passengers feel like they're flying in a jet. ;)

Cessna really missed out by failing to publish a V1 speed!

BTW, it was good to hear from you.
Click to expand...
Ronnie
Click to expand...
Glad to have you back, Ronnie. :)
 
EdFred said:
I went over two years without flying an approach or imc and almost a year of no flying of any kind. Got in a new plane to get an ipc and a checkout for insurance, and the cfii had to check to make sure the HSI wasn't broken. Then again I'm also the guy that didn't golf for 6 months and shot 1 over my first round back playing again, and bowled a 205 after 10 years off from bowling. Once I know it I know it. I fly with a cfii, well, never.
Click to expand...


Don't let him kid you, he has the Minions do all the hard instrument work!!!
 
jtheune said:
I'm curious as the number of hours the posters on this thread have. I'm betting the more hours of total time the less number of approaches are needed for practice but I'm willing to be surprised about that.
Click to expand...
Although it might sound logical, the amount of time in one's logbook or the amount of time one flies each year has very little to do with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top