USAFA V USNA

X3 Skier

X3 Skier

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Messages
5,480
Location
GDK & SBS
Display Name
Geezer
Home Airfield
GDK Greene County
Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.

Banzai

PS Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.
 
USAF wears silk scarves, right? Don't the navy wear wool scarves?

You can't be an aviator without a scarf.
 
Given my and my family's experience with aviating in both services, I'd suggest a couple long talks with a junior O-3 pilot from either/both services, then a careful re-eval of the plan. . .
 
Either way he's gonna get helos so it doesn't matter what service he chooses. :D
 
By the time he gets through training, it will be all UAS/UAV.
4 yrs at the academy of choice, 1 yr for pilot training, plus time for aircraft specific.

Good luck with either choice.
AF is ground based, USN is water based.

A lucky person and smart, to get acceptance letters from more than one academy.
 
BillTIZ said:
By the time he gets through training, it will be all UAS/UAV.
4 yrs at the academy of choice, 1 yr for pilot training, plus time for aircraft specific.
Click to expand...

Was that supposed to be in green? UAS are definitely expanding but *all*? I know we just extended the F-15 fleet till 2045.
 
What would snort SNODGRASS do? If your as talented as he is, it won't matter what service you chose.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
He has everything to do with it. One of the best fighter pilots ever, excellent education , excellent role model.
Click to expand...

The topic is whether to choose USNA or USAFA. "Snort" was NROTC and the aircraft he flew doesn't exist in the Navy's inventory anymore. Not really relevant.
 
Dale SNODGRASS , were he to apply today , would be an easy enter for either academy. He could probably fly anything in either inventory today with a very short acclimation even though he's getting on. Of course he still flys airshows. You seem a little dense on this so i shall pass.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Dale SNODGRASS , were he to apply today , would be an easy enter for either academy. He could probably fly anything in either inventory today with a very short acclimation even though he's getting on. Of course he still flys airshows. You seem a little dense on this so i shall pass.
Click to expand...

And again, still has nothing to do with the thread but by all means continue to bring up Snodgrass at every military thread we have. Guess you can never get to much Snodgrass.:confused:
 
Velocity173 said:
The topic is whether to choose USNA or USAFA. "Snort" was NROTC and the aircraft he flew doesn't exist in the Navy's inventory anymore. Not really relevant.
Click to expand...
I think Jimmy's point is that it doesn't really matter where you go: bloom where you're planted.

Aviation aptitude has very little to do with acceptance to any service academy.
 
For some people the education was most important, like my brother, who had full ride scholarships to the college of his choice from the Air Force, Army, and Navy. I dont even know if he applied to either Academy. But, while serving in the Air Force he was offered an opportunity to teach mathematics at the Air Force Academy. He went on to be a test pilot and was named AFSC Tester of the year in 1990. Not long after that he was diagnosed as diabetic and had to turn down an offer to NASA astronaut training (which was a lifelong dream). He ended up flying a desk at the Pentagon and Wright Patterson and retired as Colonel. There's just some things nobody has control over.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think Jimmy's point is that it doesn't really matter where you go: bloom where you're planted.

Aviation aptitude has very little to do with acceptance to any service academy.
Click to expand...

Sure, but he asked what Snort would do. Well he didn't go to Annapolis so it's unrelated. The person in question has been accepted to both USNA and USAFA. A more appropriate response would be 'What would Joe "Hoser" Satrapa do?';)
 
jkaduk said:
AF guy now living in a Navy/Marine town. I made the right choice.
Click to expand...
The right choice for you.

Everyone is different. There are some great AF pilots who would never make it in the USN/USMC and vice versa.

Although I am not a military pilot, being a Navy guy, I can honestly say that while QOL is better in the AF, that organization would drive me bonkers. I find the Navy world much more appealing.
 
One thing I learned back in the dark ages is NATOPS tells you what is not permitted and everything else is assumed ok and the USAF -1 says what is permitted and everything else is verboten/forbidden. Haven't looked at either in moons and it may have changed but this said a lot to me about the philosophy of the two services toward flying:cool:

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
One thing I learned back in the dark ages is NATOPS tells you what is not permitted and everything else is assumed ok and the USAF -1 says what is permitted and everything else is verboten/forbidden. Haven't looked at either in moons and it may have changed but this said a lot to me about the philosophy of the two services toward flying:cool:

Cheers
Click to expand...
That's actually a pretty accurate assessment. I would add that in general, I've noticed the Navy is better than most other services with the concept of command by negation.
 
Definitely the case! I wish the USAF rules were written a little more like the USN. Unfortunately, I don't find the Navy guys using that little loophole to develop new tactics or train to new threats. I do see them using it to shine their ass in the pattern and do flyby's over their buddy's farms. To each their own.
 
As on O-3 flight lead, I once had to ask an O-5 Eagle flight lead to taxi clear so that I could take-off. He had taken the active but tower reported winds that gave a tailwind, so he couldn't takeoff until he got permission from someone up the chain. The Navy trusts the guys in the cockpit to make the right decision.
 
EvilEagle said:
Was that supposed to be in green? UAS are definitely expanding but *all*? I know we just extended the F-15 fleet till 2045.
Click to expand...

In jest, UAS is the wave of the future, they are already landing them on aircraft carriers.
B-52 will fly forever, B-1, almost as long.

A lot of AF pilots, fighter pilots and cargo pilots, are being assigned to UAS for their second tour.
 
First time I met "snort" he just greeted me like any other aviator would have, around his MiG's. I had no idea who he was at the time. Not to worry……his weird awkward wife went ahead and introduced herself and asked my friend and I if we knew who we were talking to. "um no"……"well that is snort snodgrasss"……great lady, would you like a medal or would you rather we act like we know who the f*** your obscure husband is (for the record I had heard the name, though not at all impressed). He was a nice guy, she was a >>>>
 
Cooter143 said:
As on O-3 flight lead, I once had to ask an O-5 Eagle flight lead to taxi clear so that I could take-off. He had taken the active but tower reported winds that gave a tailwind, so he couldn't takeoff until he got permission from someone up the chain. The Navy trusts the guys in the cockpit to make the right decision.
Click to expand...
Don't know what clown that was, but he should be strung up. I've never heard of that happening in a fighter - even in the USAF.
 
EvilEagle said:
Don't know what clown that was, but he should be strung up. I've never heard of that happening in a fighter - even in the USAF.
Click to expand...

I don't know how representative it is, but it's a true story. My experience would tell me it's fairly reflective of the attitudes of the two services. I know that in some AF communities TOLD limitations do require a call back to the SOF for approval, which isn't the case anywhere that I've seen in the Navy.
 
Cooter143 said:
I don't know how representative it is, but it's a true story. My experience would tell me it's fairly reflective of the attitudes of the two services. I know that in some AF communities TOLD limitations do require a call back to the SOF for approval, which isn't the case anywhere that I've seen in the Navy.
Click to expand...

Maybe happens with great regularity in Air Mobility Command where, in my experience, they are so tied to the book that if the door says "entrance", they wouldn't use it to escape a burning building. Definitely not in the tactical world although there's probably some CS Wing King somewhere who likes to play God.

Cheers
 
I think it's cultural, although the Navy is slowly evolving. I'm more familiar with the tactical side than AMC, but my impression is that the Navy lets the pilots fly their planes. I had a lot of freedom as a young flight lead but if I messed something up, I'd have to answer for it. The AF tends to publish all the rules and there isnt a lot that's not covered. So as a pilot you have to know all the rules, and follow them. The rule following covers most of the decision making, and so that is what is expected. The AF doesn't really want their pilots (especially young pilots) making their own decisions and screwing it up. If you encounter something that's not written or you don't know if it's written, you call back and put the onus on someone else.

The Navy gives their pilots the room to mess it up, and doesn't always tell them everything about how to do it. Word of mouth, gouge, Natops and SOP covers all the basics, and the pilots can fill in the rest as long as it makes sense and isn't dangerous. That's my take on it, others may see it differently based on their community.

I'll give one quick example, but I could give plenty of others. I was a student on a Det out west. On an early Weapons solo, there were three students and an instructor as lead. After the Weps pattern was complete, we had gas so the flight lead took us on a 4-ship low-level, unbriefed. His only guidance was not to go below him and to set our Radar altimeter. We had no previous formation low-level experience, but it was a blast and no one screwed it away. I don't know if it was legal or not, but it didn't really matter. I doubt that would happen in AF UPT. It may not even happen in the Navy anymore, I don't know.
 
It's tradition. The Navy harkens back to the earliest days of the country when the Captain of a US ship or the Commodre of a US fleet was given some general orders, sailed out to sea where there was zero communication back to shore and did what he felt best to meet the situation chasing bad guys in the next year or more. On the other hand, the Army had to follow strict orders to keep themselves from shooting everybody in sight, good guys or bad guys and that continued to the Army Air Corps to today's USAF.

Generally speaking, that same mind set prevails today between the USA and USAF v USN. It even is the same in development where a USN Program Manager has much more flexibility than a USAF PM.

Cheers
 
Cooter: Can't speak to your experiences, I can speak to flying in the USAF for the last 16 years and I've never heard of or seen a situation where a fighter pilot HAD to call the ops sup/SOF for approval (apart from the kids at the RTU). I've seen plenty of people ask for more info, but it's just not prevalent.

I expect any professional aviator to know all the rules - that's part and parcel to being a professional aviator. So yeah, I expect all my pilots to know the rules and follow them. I also expect them to know when rules should be bent and when they should be broken - there is a time and place for all of it. Believe me, there's plenty of room for them to screw up ("Hey, you 4 take these 4 jets for the weekend - don't do anything stupid") and thousands of other examples. They are held responsible for their actions - just like you were.

I don't know what big blue AF really wants their young pilots to do; I'd be surprised if you actually do either. I can only tell you what I expect from my young (and old) pilots.
 
For the rest of us mere mortals...you know, those who aren't military aviation qualified, there is the Army.

I had an appointment to USAFA and USMA. All I had ever wanted was to fly F-15s. I had poor color vision though and failed my flight physical. It took me about 30 minutes to decide if I was going to be a ground pounder, I wasn't going to do it in the Air Force. I had a good career in the Field Artillery, just moping out of Air Force airplanes and riding in Army helicopters as ballast. Through it all, I kept flying on the civilian side. I did almost get a waiver for color vision as a 2LT, but aviation slots for already commissioned officers were cut and I also developed another minor health issue which temporarily derailed me. It all disappeared and I just moved on.

Remember, there is the Air Force Academy, the Naval Academy and The US MILITARY Academy. . Well there is the DOT academy too.
 
I'm not making any absolute claims, but the cultural distinctions do exist and general opinions can accurately represent them. That doesn't negate the reality of differences among communities or even squadrons. Look back to your initial post, your way of pointing out the differences was to portray the Navy as more concerned about a sh## hot break and fly-by's than training to real world threats. That's a general statement that may capture some truth, but also may reflect more myth than fact. Your experiences will mostly shape your opinion. I've been in the cockpit on both sides, and in general I've found the stereotypes to be true. As have others I've flown with. But I've also seen (and worked with) some AF Reserve units that act more like a Navy squadron than an AF one.

EvilEagle said:
I also expect them to know when rules should be bent and when they should be broken - there is a time and place for all of it.
Click to expand...

In my experience, that mentality is a lot more rare on the AF side that it is on the Navy side, but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. As for the Eagle guy that was holding up departures for winds, I don't know his whole story. But he did almost made me late for my recovery time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top