Upset recovery

[Toby]

Has anyone here done upset recovery training in a Decathlon or other aerobatic plane?

We're doing this now. It is hard for me to react quickly in upside down diving situations. Every time I do it, even though I know what I'm supposed to do, I have this moment where I freeze, and I can't stand it. Will I get used to it? I want this to become second nature.

It's a LITTLE bit like recovery from unusual attitudes, except there are no unusual attitudes. The way we do it is I close my eyes while my instructor flies me around and messes me up. I have to have my feet flat on the floor and my hands in my lap. It takes only a few seconds before I don't know which way we're going. Then he says, "Recover."

One of the recoveries today was from flying nearly straight up. We had thick clouds coming in, and we were near the bases at around 3,800 feet. Going up I had virtually no reference points, but I did know I was climbing because the engine grew quieter. All I can use for clues in this exercise are what I see out the windows and what I hear from the engine. At least, those provide my first clues; then I look at the altimeter and ASI to see what's happening.

I understand that the first thing to do is level the wings, whether upside down or right side up. The part that I hate is diving upside down. It takes only a couple seconds to go from 80 to 200 mph (redline) in the Decathlon. Horrible, horrible feeling watching that needle go there. I tend to freeze and say to myself, "Oh, no." I will never let myself fly that plane alone until I learn how to bypass that step and just do what I have to do.

This is another of those slow learner things. I wish I could learn more quickly!

 

[spiderweb]

I have done upset recovery training in the Zlin242. I have done aerobatics, but I haven't yet gotten to recovering from an aerobatically unusual attitude--only extreme unusual attitudes. I think it just takes a whole lot more time to fell comfortable about recovery from extremes. I'm sure we'll both get used to it.

 

[bbchien]

I did a lot of upset recovery learning and training in the Cessna 140. Yes, inverted, redline comes up FAST.

Duane Cole used to say, "find the ground, find the ground, find the ground". "Do you have the ground?" "OK then, stick to the ground". Basically he felt that if the ground was rushing up at you very fast, you were upside down and you were to reverse pitch input, aileron roll to upright, and recover from the dive. That works above 1000 feet. Below 1000 I think one simply has to be a Jedi knight. If you were in a tailslide and the ground appeared on your right, you needed more right rudder. If it appeared above your head, you needed more back stick. etc etc.

All these were done in VMC. Doing these with the foggles on is, well, very hard for me to get correct. It's also nauseating which I find disorienting.

Sign me, Transport Pilot at heart. Keep the Blue side up.

 

[Toby]

I can't imagine doing this with foggles on. It's hard enough sometimes to get a distinct horizon. We do this over water, so there's a sameness of color, and then today we also had an overcast. I depend heavily on a good horizon line, and on seeing Long Island off to one side.

Yes, reverse pitch input upside down, and it takes a good bit of force and a feeling almost of willpower to get that stick forward. My instructor is suggesting to me to arrest the dive first, then roll upright.

At lunch one of the guys said that the Extra doesn't increase speed as fast as the Decathlon, he thinks because it has a much heavier wing.

 

[spiderweb]

For the IR you not only have to do this under the hood, you also have to do it partial panel. Of course, we aren't talking aerobatically unusual.

 

[Toby]

Ben,

Why, that sounds like the worst of both worlds!

 

[spiderweb]

Ben,

Why, that sounds like the worst of both worlds!

Yes, but there is a reason for it. You have to be able to recover from an unusual attitude while under the hood to simulate loss of control or spatial disorientation recovery when in IMC. You have to demonstrate this partial panel because this is where it really counts. In fact, one is probably more likely to be spatially disoriented when they've lost their gyros than when the six pack is all working.

 

[Brian Austin]

I try to take 'new' training every year around my PPL anniversary. Last year was Mountain Flying training. This year, I'm thinking about upset/emergency manuevers training here: http://www.fcitraining.com/default.htm.

Pricey but extremely intense from what I've heard.

 

[gibbons]

Pricey but extremely intense from what I've heard.

I had no idea how pricey it would be....

it gets in your blood.

Chip

 

[Brian Austin]

I had no idea how pricey it would be....

it gets in your blood.

Chip

Good thing my wife doesn't lurk here.

It will be our little secret, okay?

 

[gismo]

Has anyone here done upset recovery training in a Decathlon or other aerobatic plane?

Yep, I think I've been exposed to almost everything except a vertical dive.

We're doing this now. It is hard for me to react quickly in upside down diving situations. Every time I do it, even though I know what I'm supposed to do, I have this moment where I freeze, and I can't stand it. Will I get used to it? I want this to become second nature.

It's better to take a little time to assess your situation, that to just do something without figuring out what you should be doing. For now I think you can assume that your instructor won't let you get in over your head and/or will recover in time if you don't, so just determine your attitude and recover without rushing. In time it will definitely get easier.

One of the recoveries today was from flying nearly straight up. We had thick clouds coming in, and we were near the bases at around 3,800 feet. Going up I had virtually no reference points, but I did know I was climbing because the engine grew quieter. All I can use for clues in this exercise are what I see out the windows and what I hear from the engine. At least, those provide my first clues; then I look at the altimeter and ASI to see what's happening.

I understand that the first thing to do is level the wings, whether upside down or right side up. The part that I hate is diving upside down. It takes only a couple seconds to go from 80 to 200 mph (redline) in the Decathlon. Horrible, horrible feeling watching that needle go there. I tend to freeze and say to myself, "Oh, no." I will never let myself fly that plane alone until I learn how to bypass that step and just do what I have to do.

IMO the first thing to do is determine your attitude, with a nearly identical priority for opening or closing the throttle. IME that generally means closing the throttle, the exception being when you are slow and decelerating.

I think you need to force yourself to look around until you see something you can orient with. Until you find a reference (ground or horizon) you can't easily determine what control movement are necessary. There is one thing you can do without any attitude reference is to pay attention to the airspeed trend. If you are accelerating, pull off the power and if you're slowing add power. This will usually give you a little more time to sort things out. Of course you don't want to waste time staring at the ASI so you should make the airspeed trend determination with a couple quick glances at the ASI and/or by the control feel and wind noise.

This is another of those slow learner things. I wish I could learn more quickly!

Well, you can comfort yourself with the idea that things learned quickly are also quickly forgotten. By taking some extra time you're probably learning more permanently.

 

[gibbons]

I think you need to force yourself to look around until you see something you can orient with. Until you find a reference (ground or horizon) you can't easily determine what control movement are necessary. There is one thing you can do without any attitude reference is to pay attention to the airspeed trend. ...
Well, you can comfort yourself with the idea that things learned quickly are also quickly forgotten. By taking some extra time you're probably learning more permanently.

Toby,

I think this is great feedback from Lance.

I would ask you to remember this too... being upside down in an airplane isn't a normal thing. It just feels wrong. It's more than just the visual image, it's the blood flow, the fact that your head fells like a watermelon, your feet want to come off the rudder pedals, you can't find the throttle or the airspeed indicator, you can't make your head look down (up?) at the panel, your butt is off the seat, the headset feels really strange... all of these things plus a hundred other discomforts combined can overload your brain pretty quickly. Add to that the fact that there is a lot of anxiety and the airspeed is building quickly and it's a great recipe for freezing up. Most of us have done it.

I'm a believer that it's important to get comfortable inverted before upset recovery can really sink in. You wouldn't expect an instructor to take a new student out and practice stalls before the student was at least comfortable flying straight and level. I've been working hard on negative g's for the past week or so and I know what you're going through. One of the first things I do when I go out is roll inverted and do some basic maneuvers - like s-turns level, climbing/descending turns, etc. The first several times I tried inverted turns I had to roll back upright to get re-oriented. It's not easy. I also make it a point to practice my instrument scan while inverted - especially the airspeed and the oil pressure. This actually required quite an effort for me to learn, but it has helped make me much more comfortable. So you might want to ask your instructor if you can spend 5 - 10 minutes at the beginning of each flight doing various inverted maneuvers. About 1 minute at a time inverted is all I care for.

Finally, remember that you're doing stuff most pilots only wish they could do. Keep it up!!! And keep working with your instructor.

Chip

 

[Toby]

It's better to take a little time to assess your situation, that to just do something without figuring out what you should be doing. ......
IMO the first thing to do is determine your attitude, with a nearly identical priority for opening or closing the throttle. IME that generally means closing the throttle, the exception being when you are slow and decelerating.

Lance, you're right about that. When I said level out first, I was weighing it out with the other major position change -- rolling upright. I did leave out the other steps. If I'm diving, I'm going to close the throttle as soon as I get those aural and visual cues you mentioned. I think my instructor's idea about getting the stick forward before rolling upright was a good one. If there's time, take another fraction of a second to check the altimeter and verify I'm not still descending. It's such a fast dive in that airplane. I think I said in another thread -- or maybe it was on another board -- that a friend of mine who has an Extra told me that in his plane, the airspeed doesn't climb so high so fast. He said it's because the wings are heavier? thicker?

Well, you can comfort yourself with the idea that things learned quickly are also quickly forgotten. By taking some extra time you're probably learning more permanently.

Thanks for your help. I was hoping you'd show up on this board!

 

[Bill]

Has anyone here done upset recovery training in a Decathlon or other aerobatic plane?

Hi Toby, thanks for sharing your experiences! Wx permitting, I start intro Acro / upset training in a Citabria this Saturday. I'm both excited and nervous, and don't know what to expect. But, like it or not, I consider this to be "good medicine" on the road to becoming a better pilot.

Hello to all y'all as well!

Thanks, Chuck!

Bill Jennings, PP-ASEL

 

[Toby]

I would ask you to remember this too... being upside down in an airplane isn't a normal thing. It just feels wrong. It's more than just the visual image, it's the blood flow, ......I'm a believer that it's important to get comfortable inverted before upset recovery can really sink in.

Chip, you are so right about all that. I think sometimes my instructor forgets that he's been doing this for years, and I am so new at it. Do you know how long it took me to get the idea of "top rudder" to sink in? I still get mixed up with which aileron does what when I'm upside down.

Add to that mental switcheroo all the physical sensations, and oh boy. Being upside down, those sensations literally flood in. I'm laughing at your mention of how hard it is to find the throttle and airspeed indicator. The whole panel looks different. My brain is screaming at me, what are you doing looking at the panel!!! You are upside down, lady!!!

It's so odd. Also, the stick feels different, especially if I'm heading down. It's harder to get forward than it normally is. Normally, the stick is VERY easy to move in the Decathlon.

I think the anxiety is probably the worst part, and it's what holds me up. I have always been like this with flying. Once I get used to something, I'm good at it. I'm thorough, careful, I cover all the bases. But I'm not a relaxed learner, in general. Well, not with flying, anyway. I'm relaxed about everything else.

My next lesson is Saturday (so long to wait!), and I will go through all this again and report back.

You know, your butt shouldn't be up off the seat, Chip -- gotta ratchet yourself in tighter!

 

[Toby]

Hi Toby, thanks for sharing your experiences! Wx permitting, I start intro Acro / upset training in a Citabria this Saturday. I'm both excited and nervous, and don't know what to expect. But, like it or not, I consider this to be "good medicine" on the road to becoming a better pilot.

Bill, that is great! Take my word for it, you're going to love it. You're going to be so proud of yourself.

Can you tell me anything about the course you're taking? Is there a pre-set syllabus, or will the instructor tailor it to you? I hope you'll share all the details of your first lesson. I like to hear how other beginning acro students are doing. The pilots I hang out with at HWV are very experienced with aerobatics, have been doing it and competing for years, or they fly in airshows. They fly airplanes like the Pitts, Edge, Extra, Sukhoi, etc....... not that they're not supportive of me, but we beginners have to stick together!

 

[gibbons]

You know, your butt shouldn't be up off the seat, Chip -- gotta ratchet yourself in tighter!

Yer right Toby. It takes a few maneuvers to get everything stretched out enough that I can get a good, tight ratchet. But those first few pushes usually take me out of the seat.

Chip

 

[LvPilot]

I try to take 'new' training every year around my PPL anniversary. Last year was Mountain Flying training. This year, I'm thinking about upset/emergency manuevers training here: http://www.fcitraining.com/default.htm.

Pricey but extremely intense from what I've heard.

Hey Brian - I am also thinking about doing this too, but I am looking at someplace a bit closer to home: http://www.aerobaticcompany.com/.

 

[Bill]

Can you tell me anything about the course you're taking? Is there a pre-set syllabus, or will the instructor tailor it to you? I hope you'll share all the details of your first lesson.

Hi Toby, yes, he does have a syllabus, here it is by lesson:

1. Slow flight, stall power off, stall power on, stall leaf, 720 turns 45-60 degree bank, loop, tailwheel takeoff, three point landing
2. 720 steep turns, wingover, loop, aileron roll, landings from 1
3. Same as 2, add snap roll
4. same as 3, add split-s, 1 revolution spin both directions, and start wheel landings, start x-wind landings
5. same as 4, add barrel roll
6. same as 5, add half cuban 8, spin 3 revolutions both directions
7. same as 6, add cloverleaf
8. same as 7, add immelmann

Weather now looks crummy for Saturday, so I may have to wait another week to start

The instructor is an ex F-14 Tomcat driver and Top Gun graduate, and has done competitions. I've talked to others who have flown this course and the reviews are very positive. Very professional guy. Can't wait!

If I want to go on, he has an advanced aerobatic course he teaches in a Super-D.

Bill Jennings

 

[BruceAir]

I ran across the following information about upset recoveries the other day. Although it's aimed at transport category pilots, it has useful information for all aviators.

The page includes links to documents, PowerPoint presentations, and a couple of videos in .wmv format. You might want to take a look:


http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs200/afs210/index.cfm

Another excellent source of information is Fighter Combat International (www.fscitraining.com).

Check out the newsletters, videos, and other information at:

http://www.fcitraining.com/newsletterlist.htm

-Brucehttp://www.fcitraining.com/

 

[Toby]

Yoo-hoo! Chuck!

While you're moving threads to Aerobatics, you could take this one along. Thx!

 

[lsimonds]

Toby,

I've never done the type of recovery training you've described, but I want to give a little perspective. I think this is very advanced. Like me, I imagine most of the barnstormers out there doing loops, rolls, Immelmans, and the range of combinations have never done this. The purpose I see in it - they way you're doing it - is conditioning you to recover from blacking out. Have ya'll talked about that? I've read that graying out can occur at anything over 5 G's. I've pulled 5 G's on botched manuevers, but never grayed out, much less blacked out. You?

Yeah, baby. He's getting your rear end ready to compete!

Have fun....you'll master this too!

Lisa

 

[Toby]

Toby,

I've never done the type of recovery training you've described, but I want to give a little perspective. I think this is very advanced. Like me, I imagine most of the barnstormers out there doing loops, rolls, Immelmans, and the range of combinations have never done this. The purpose I see in it - they way you're doing it - is conditioning you to recover from blacking out. Have ya'll talked about that? I've read that graying out can occur at anything over 5 G's. I've pulled 5 G's on botched manuevers, but never grayed out, much less blacked out. You?

Yeah, baby. He's getting your rear end ready to compete!

Have fun....you'll master this too!

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I've never grayed out yet, but it could happen, and that's one reason why I'm doing this -- to prevent a bad situation from developing into something that pulls that many Gs and builds up too much speed. I want to be able to get myself level and upright in the least amount of time I can. I wouldn't feel safe going out alone if I couldn't do this. It's like spin training. I won't go out there alone until I'm confident I can get out of a spin (any kind).

The other reason I had asked for upset recovery was for general flying in the 172 or whatever I'm using. If I get turned over by wake turbulence or mountain waves or whatever else can turn you over, at least I'll know how to get myself right side up. Not that you can necessarily fight the forces of wake turbulence. But at least I'll have the technique and a tool at my disposal.

My instructor was telling me the other day about an accident he had read about on the NTSB website. A pilot was taking his friend and the friend's daughter for a ride. He was making a left turn around something. The friend leaned back over the seat to say something to the daughter, and he was holding the yoke -- or he grabbed the yoke. I don't remember all the details, but the plane rolled over to the left. The pilot tried to fight the forces and roll it back to the right to get level again. The left wing broke and bent upwards [edit - maybe it was the right wing]. It was a tragedy that may have been avoided if he had known to just let the plane keep rolling in the direction it was rolling and not add excessive load to that wing by trying to reverse its travel.

So, I'm doing it for safety reasons, and it's making me more familiar with the airplane and how it behaves in nasty situations. I have to be able to tame this wild beast!

I don't know about competing. I'd need a plane of my own and lots of time to practice, and about twice my income. But I can enjoy learning, anyway.

 

[lsimonds]

So, I'm doing it for safety reasons, and it's making me more familiar with the airplane and how it behaves in nasty situations. I have to be able to tame this wild beast!

Okay, okay, I'll buy the safety spin (no pun), but only because the Decathlon makes safety so much fun!

Well, I think it's wonderful that you're doing this, and I truly believe learning aircraft limits and stretching pilot limits in this way will make all future training much much easier. You may never need this to save your life, but it's sure 'nuff experience that will serve you every hour you fly.

 

[lsimonds]

About 1 minute at a time inverted is all I care for.

Chip, this made me feel a lot better about how much I dislike inverted flight. I guess that would go away with time. I'm jealous of your Extra, and northern Arkansas is such a beautful area to fly. You're blessed!

 

[gibbons]

Chip, this made me feel a lot better about how much I dislike inverted flight. I guess that would go away with time. I'm jealous of your Extra, and northern Arkansas is such a beautful area to fly. You're blessed!

Lisa,

Yes. I'm very fortunate indeed!

Chip