Upgrading a C-152's avionics, have a bunch of questions

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dsffdssdf

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I'm in the market to buy a C-152 or C-150. I'm trying to find one with all old school instruments, and then do some upgrades to modernize it.

I want all panel mounted instruments to be old school. I plan on using a yoke mounted mobile device for all the fancy screen stuff like ADS-B traffic, weather, and terrain. The plan currently is either ForeFlight on a IOS device or Garmin Pilot on Android. I'm leaning towards Garmin Pilot because I like Android better.

I don't want any panel mounted screens at all. No GNS430/530 or anything like that. I like the idea of GPS and WAAS being hardwired into the panel, as I believe that will allow me to have IFR certified GPS if I ever plan on getting my plane IFR certified. (is this correct?) To start I will only be doing VFR flights (I do currently have an instrument rating).

I plan on flying to many Class C and B airports, so ABS-B out is a must. I can live with an external "in" receiver.

From the research I've done so far, I see three options:

1) Garmin GTX345 ($5,700)
2) Stratus ESG + 2i ($3,900)
3) GDL84 + FlightStream 210 ($4,445)

I have experience using Garmin products and I know their stuff is well built. I don't know much about Stratus. The Garmin seems to have features that Stratus doesn't advertise such as TargetTrend™ and TerminalTraffic™. Are these extra features worth the extra money? Also, the Garmin has a feature that hooks into your audio system and gives you traffic alerts through your headset. Does the Stratus do this? Will the Garmin GTX345 hook into an ancient audio system or do you need a modern Garmin made one? Does the Garmin have AHRS? I assume it does, but the website doesn't say explicitly. Does the GDL84 hook into the audio system, and does it have AHRS? I know the Stratus has it...

Something else I couldn't find is: Can a mobile device connected through a panel mounted GPS panel device via Bluetooth be IFR certified? The stratus ESG says right on the website that it is VFR only. Garmin's site doesn't say if their system is IFR certified or VFR only...

Does the Stratus ESG interact with android devices or is it only compatible with IOS devices? I see Stratus advertises Foreflight Support, but what about an android based flight apps?

Thank you for any answers...
 
So you're looking to be upside down money wise on a plane?

Also if you're building a serious IFR plane, aside from choosing the wrong airframe, where the nice auto pilot? Because a good AP needs to be on the top of your list of a real single pilot IFR airplane.
 
Most 150s are VFR machines with old school everything. Converting them to anything else is truly a fool’s errand. Some are IFR capable and certified, but again old school everything, no GPS or autopilot to be seen. Practicing IFR approaches on a sunny day is perfectly doable, but I wouldn’t ask such a ship to do much more.
 
Why would you need a stratus if you had a 345? I think you need to think more about not having a certified panel GPS. If you are going to dedicate a panel to an EFB, you need to think more about which application, GP or FF, more than which panel. Which app do you have experience with?
 
steingar said:
Most 150s are VFR machines with old school everything. Converting them to anything else is truly a fool’s errand. Some are IFR capable and certified, but again old school everything, no GPS or autopilot to be seen. Practicing IFR approaches on a sunny day is perfectly doable, but I wouldn’t ask such a ship to do much more.
Click to expand...

Using a 150 as a trainer to work through Private, IR and Commercial, then sell it can be a reasonable thing to do. I doubt that anyone would use one long term for single Pilot IFR, and I doubt that the OP is planning on doing such a thing.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Using a 150 as a trainer to work through Private, IR and Commercial, then sell it can be a reasonable thing to do. I doubt that anyone would use one long term for single Pilot IFR, and I doubt that the OP is planning on doing such a thing.
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Outfitting it with much of anything defeats the purpose of buying, training and flipping. The avionics work will be sufficiently expensive the render the ownership more costly than a rental experience.
 
Depends! If someone is on a fast track to work through the ratings, having their own trainer available when they want to fly and be able to recover much of the outlay has merit. Everyone’s mission has its variations. Also everyones capabilities in hangaring, and maintaining their own plane factors into the overall plan. We are all different.
 
The plane will mostly be used for $100 hamburgers type operations. I already have all my ratings, so no time building will be done in this plane. I live in the southwest, where the weather is VFR almost all the time, but I see myself doing one or two trips a year into areas where IFR might be needed. If it's not too difficult to maintain IFR certification, then why not... I agree it doesn't make sense to pour in half the purchase price of the plane to make it IFR...

Is it really that hard to get a C-152 IFR certified? From reading 91.205 it seems most 152's are already most of the way there. I've never owned an airplane before, so I don't really know.

MBDiagMan said:
Why would you need a stratus if you had a 345?
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Obviously I won't get both. Its either/or.
 
I do not understand the question. You want an old school panel, but want to modernize the airplane by buying hand held devices?

You can make a 150/2 IFR legal with a steam gauge panel pretty easily. You cannot make any plane IFR legal with handheld devices.

As I said, I don’t understand the question so this may be of no help.
 
I'll take a crack at your questions:
  • Garmin GTX345 - Yes, it has AHRS. It's pretty much the best/most expensive/most featured ADS-B Out Transponder combo (except maybe Lynx L3). ADS-B In compatible via Bluetooth with both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot. I think 2 external device max. Audio alerts would likely come via Bluetooth (assuming your headset can pair with your external tablet device). Or, it can probably wire into audio panel...my bet is you'd need a new audio panel given the state of Cessna 150/152 commonly found installed audio panel, but not 100% sure.
  • Stratus ESGi - Foreflight compatible only (I have this in my 152 - it came with it). External devices pair via wifi and you can theoretically have unlimited connections. Audio alerts are delivered by Foreflight App via Bluetooth (my headset is paired to my iPad). You could also get the Stratus ESG (transponder only) + any other ADS-B In device wired to the Stratus Antenna. This way you could still use Garmin Pilot if that's your preference. And still way cheaper than the Garmin GTX345. I didn't chose the Stratus ESGi, but I do like it I guess. It works. If I ever wanted to switch from Foreflight though, I'd need to pick up a different ADS-B in receiver for traffic/weather.
  • Not sure if GDL-84 has AHRS, it's not advertised.
  • No, no external GPS can be IFR Certified. At least not today as far as I'm aware. So, if you really want GPS in your plane to legally use for /G IFR flights, you'd need a Garmin 430 or something.
My 2 cents would be to simply find a clean 150/152 with working everything including Glideslope. Mine only has a VOR/LOC. If it doesn't have ADS-B Out, add a cheap solution like a GDL-82 or maybe the Skybeacon if it ever gets certified and be done. Then you can use whatever ADS-B In solution you want (Stratus, GDL-50/51/52, Merlin, Stratux, whatever) with whatever app you want on whatever platform you want (ios/android). No sense making a 150/152 something it's not and dumping big bucks for avionics.

Thanks
 
dsffdssdf said:
...I don't want any panel mounted screens at all. No GNS430/530 or anything like that. I like the idea of GPS and WAAS being hardwired into the panel, as I believe that will allow me to have IFR certified GPS if I ever plan on getting my plane IFR certified. (is this correct?)...

...I plan on flying to many Class C and B airports, so ABS-B out is a must. I can live with an external "in" receiver.

From the research I've done so far, I see three options:

1) Garmin GTX345 ($5,700)
2) Stratus ESG + 2i ($3,900)
3) GDL84 + FlightStream 210 ($4,445)...

...Something else I couldn't find is: Can a mobile device connected through a panel mounted GPS panel device via Bluetooth be IFR certified? The stratus ESG says right on the website that it is VFR only. Garmin's site doesn't say if their system is IFR certified or VFR only...

Thank you for any answers...
Click to expand...

You seem a bit confused.
First, an IFR compliant GPS must be permanently mounted in the plane, not a portable.
Second, if you "can live with an external (ADS-B) in receiver" you don't need a Garmin GTX-345, as it has "Out" and "In".
 
The problem with outfitting an inexpensive aircraft like a Cessna 150 is you need sufficient instruments to function in the IFR environment. In this day and age that means GPS. You're also almost certainly going to have to add an ADSB transponder. The ship may already have a VOR, but odds are you're going to have to add glide slope. You're already taking well north of 15 AMUs, and we aren't talking about WAAS either. Unless the OP can do all the installs himself, he's going to spend what the 150 is worth in avionics just to make it bare bones functional.

There may be some out there outfitted to the level of functionality, but they're going to be rare. Says me, buy a Cessna 150 for flying on VFR days. If you really need to do trips rent something with IFR equipment.
 
"IFR-certified" is a pretty broad definition. To conduct an IFR flight, one needs, in addition to the basic panel instruments, an electrical system, a clock, an altimeter/static check within 24 months, and nav equipment required to conduct the flight. This could conceivably be as little as a VOR and COM plus transponder, although I wouldn't recommend that. Most would probably want at least an ILS receiver on their personal minimum list for IFR ops.

IFR GPS (units meeting requirements for sole means of navigation while IFR) must meet certain TSOs and these are all panel mount units. For a 152 these would be a large fraction of the value of the airframe.
 
chemgeek said:
IFR GPS (units meeting requirements for sole means of navigation while IFR) must meet certain TSOs and these are all panel mount units. For a 152 these would be a large fraction of the value of the airframe.
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Not true at all, there are a number of vintage boxes that can be had inexpensively and will function just fine in the IFR environment. The problem is the installation of the boxes (along with their indicators, where are expensive) will likely cost what the aircraft did.
 
steingar said:
Not true at all, there are a number of vintage boxes that can be had inexpensively and will function just fine in the IFR environment. The problem is the installation of the boxes (along with their indicators, where are expensive) will likely cost what the aircraft did.
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For someone who is handy, not afraid to get their hands dirty and has a friendly A&P/IA, a "legacy" IFR GPS unit can be installed pretty cheaply. I put a GX50 in my airplane for about $2.5k all in, mostly because I did all the work myself, including the paperwork, and just paid my A&P/IA to inspect and sign the 337. Took about 8 weeks for the FSDO to sign the 337 and AFMS to make it IFR legal.
 
GRG55 said:
You seem a bit confused.
First, an IFR compliant GPS must be permanently mounted in the plane, not a portable.
Click to expand...

But the GTX345 is panel mounted. The only thing not panel mounted is the screen. Why should that matter? Does anyone know if the FAA is likely to change their stance on this issue? I can understand why handhelds are not worthy of being certified for IFR since they have poor antennas that could lose reception while in the middle of a GPS approach. But if the antenna is mounted on the fuselage then those problems go away.

Salty said:
I do not understand the question. You want an old school panel, but want to modernize the airplane by buying hand held devices?
Click to expand...
Yes. I don't want to do a full 15K upgrade of everything. I want to just upgrade what I have to. Since I'll be based at a class C airport, I'll need to at least upgrade the transponder to be ABS-B out, which means I'll have to install some kind of WAAS sensor. Since I'm installing WAAS GPS anyways, it makes sense to install it in such a way that lets me actually use that signal for navigation, hence my desire to have Bluetooth/Wifi so I can have a tablet based moving map. I don't want to have any panel mounted screens because those things get dated really quickly. I remember when the 430/530 came out about 10 years ago, it was top of the line. These days it's quite dated. Even the GTN 750/650 of today may seem top of the line, in a decade they'll look old too. This is why I want the stuff that'll be outdated soon (the screens) to be external so I can upgrade them when I want without having to pay a huge aviation premium.
 
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dsffdssdf said:
But the GTX345 is panel mounted. The only thing not panel mounted is the screen. Why should that matter? Does anyone know if the FAA is likely to change their stance on this issue? I can understand why handhelds are not worthy of being certified for IFR since they have poor antennas that could lose reception while in the middle of a GPS approach. But if the antenna is mounted on the fuselage then those problems go away.

Yes. I don't want to do a full 15K upgrade of everything. I want to just upgrade what I have to. Since I'll be based at a class C airport, I'll need to at least upgrade the transponder to be ABS-B out, which means I'll have to install some kind of WAAS sensor. Since I'm installing WAAS GPS anyways, it makes sense to install it in such a way that lets me actually use that signal for navigation, hence my desire to have Bluetooth/Wifi so I can have a tablet based moving map. I don't want to have any panel mounted screens because those things get dated really quickly. I remember when the 430/530 came out about 10 years ago, it was top of the line. These days it's quite dated. Even the GTN 750/650 of today may seem top of the line, in a decade they'll look old too. This is why I want the stuff that'll be outdated soon (the screens) to be external so I can upgrade them when I want without having to pay a huge aviation premium.
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I totally get it, but I suspect FAA won't give on this anytime soon-ish. The fact is that ipads and Android devices are consumer device and can/do overheat/batteries die or just crap out. While they're great and I use them all the time in the cockpit, they're still consumer grade electronics. Now, it's possible devices like purpose built navigators like Garmin 660s could one day get the green light as they're much more robust, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I remember when the 430/530 came out about 10 years ago, it was top of the line. These days it's quite dated. Even the GTN 750/650 of today may seem top of the line, in a decade they'll look old too. This is why I want the stuff that'll be outdated soon (the screens) to be external so I can upgrade them when I want without having to pay a huge aviation premium.
Click to expand...

Uh, try 20 years ago. The GNS430 was initially released in 1998.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I remember when the 430/530 came out about 10 years ago, it was top of the line. These days it's quite dated. Even the GTN 750/650 of today may seem top of the line, in a decade they'll look old too. This is why I want the stuff that'll be outdated soon (the screens) to be external so I can upgrade them when I want without having to pay a huge aviation premium
Click to expand...

LPVs are dated?

Is there a new approach that these new boxes shoot that I don't know about?
 
killerfish72 said:
I totally get it, but I suspect FAA won't give on this anytime soon-ish. The fact is that ipads and Android devices are consumer device and can/do overheat/batteries die or just crap out. While they're great and I use them all the time in the cockpit, they're still consumer grade electronics. Now, it's possible devices like purpose built navigators like Garmin 660s could one day get the green light as they're much more robust, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Click to expand...
Because they are consumer devices, you can buy duplicates cheaply. For instance a brand new Android tablet is $180 at Best Buy. A refurbished GNS430 is $5,700. You can buy 31 android tablets for the same price of a single GNS430. The consumer device markets are more competitive and higher volume than the aviation niche market. Consumer tablets and phones is a huge market and those devices are becoming better and better faster than the panel mounted products are. I think the FAA should allow consumer devices to be used as certified IFR systems, but the rules should say the device must be less than 5 years old or something, and also you must have 2 backups on standby.
 
The GPS signal is a small part of the IFR equation. The bigger, more expensive, part is the navigation database and associated code, which must meet very stringent requirements and costs millions to get approved. I don't see this changing but with the Part 23 re-write, maybe the overall cost to get approved will come down.

VORs will be around for a very long time as a backup when (not if) GPS goes down. I agree with others that VOR/ILS would be the smart approach for your 150 and make you legal to file IFR.

The Stratus ESG transponder can be had for between 2500-3000, if you shop around or time it with OSH or S-n-F. Those who have one are quite happy with it for half the cost of the 345. You can use a Stratux for ADS-B in but it does not yet have AHRS, that I am aware.
 
dsffdssdf said:
But the GTX345 is panel mounted. The only thing not panel mounted is the screen. Why should that matter? Does anyone know if the FAA is likely to change their stance on this issue?...
Click to expand...

A GTX345 is NOT an IFR GPS navigator. It is merely a transponder (a glorified AM radio) with a WAAS GPS position source, that's it.
BIG difference between the two.

Just because every yahoo with an iPad and some cool software can now fly VFR to twelve decimals of precision in broad daylight does not make those devices either robust enough or accurate enough to be the primary to fly IFR approaches in IMC.
 
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OK, let's get real. Yes, a single VOR with a LOC function is all you really need "legally" (besides the altimeter, clock...) to be LEGAL. Please don't use the words "IFR certified" because they mean nothing at all. And, there is ABSOLUTELY no rule against using non-IFR approved devices as "backup" or "auxiliary" to the legal instruments. Just because you turn the VOR on and select the correct frequency and radial doesn't mean you have to use it continuously. You can fly quite nicely with an iPad and Foreflight (et al) in IFR conditions so long as you don't try and shoot a GPS approach with it. Just fly the glideslope approach with the GPS as the "auxiliary" that you monitor quite continuously. Capiche?
 
GRG55 said:
Just because every yahoo with an iPad and some cool software can now fly VFR to twelve decimals of precision in broad daylight does not make those devices either robust enough or accurate enough to be the primary to fly IFR approaches in IMC.
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Legalities aside (as I said above) what is your source for this information (which doesn't happen to be true)? Are you saying that a perfectly legal 1960s Mark 12 vacuum tube radio with an equally old VOA-5 VOR/LOC/GS indicator is more accurate than a GPS derived navigation instrument?

The saying is that the old 1940s A/N ranges would put you in the right city, the VOR would put you in the right neighborhood, the LOC/GS would put you in the right block, and the GPS puts you inside the oven in the right house.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Are you saying that a perfectly legal 1960s Mark 12 vacuum tube radio with an equally old VOA-5 VOR/LOC/GS indicator is more accurate than a GPS derived navigation instrument?
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yes. Particularly on altitude. Can it be more accurate? Yes. But there is no guarantee of accuracy and at times, it is way worse than a VOR glideslope.
 
Salty said:
yes. Particularly on altitude. Can it be more accurate? Yes. But there is no guarantee of accuracy and at times, it is way worse than a VOR glideslope.
Click to expand...

You wanna sober up and try that again? How does the MK-XII detect altitude? And what is a VOR glideslope? T'ain't no such thing.
 
GRG55 said:
A GTX345 is NOT an IFR GPS navigator. It is merely a transponder (a glorified AM radio) with a WAAS GPS position source, that's it.
BIG difference between the two.

Just because every yahoo with an iPad and some cool software can now fly VFR to twelve decimals of precision in broad daylight does not make those devices either robust enough or accurate enough to be the primary to fly IFR approaches in IMC.
Click to expand...
The way I see it, a WAAS sensor is a WAAS sensor. Why does it matter if the electronics are housed in a transponder or anywhere else? If it's good enough to be approved in ADS-B out, then it should also be good enough for IFR.

weirdjim said:
Please don't use the words "IFR certified" because they mean nothing at all.
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Your GPS installation has to be approved in order to file "/G", which allows you to accept direct routes and GPS approaches. You can use a VFR GPS on a IFR fight plan, but you won't be "/G"
 
dsffdssdf said:
The way I see it, a WAAS sensor is a WAAS sensor. Why does it matter if the electronics are housed in a transponder or anywhere else? If it's good enough to be approved in ADS-B out, then it should also be good enough for IFR.

Your GPS installation has to be approved in order to file "/G", which allows you to accept direct routes and GPS approaches. You can use a VFR GPS on a IFR fight plan, but you won't be "/G"
Click to expand...

You can accept direct routes in a radar environment with a VFR-only GPS. You can't file direct, but before I got my IFR GPS in my airplane I'd file airways and as soon as I got on with departure I'd ask for direct. 99.9% of the time it was granted.
 
dsffdssdf said:
The way I see it, a WAAS sensor is a WAAS sensor. Why does it matter if the electronics are housed in a transponder or anywhere else? If it's good enough to be approved in ADS-B out, then it should also be good enough for IFR.
Click to expand...

It does matter. The IFR GPS meets one of two TSOs that specify reliability and error annunciation standards for IFR flight, including approaches. And I believe it is a requirement to have a separate CDI as well. Certainly my GNS430 installation requires this. You can wail all you want but a transponder WAAS sensor or a portable unit will not meet the FAA TSO requirements for IFR flight.
 
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