UPDATED : What plane for this mission

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SteveinNC

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Steve C.
I had posted in another thread (some time ago now) about upgrading my current ride (SR22). Now, my situation has changed and I will most definitely be getting something different within the next 6 months. Looking to make sure I'm not missing something.

Me - Private/IR pilot with 600 hours (580 in my SR22). I have about 1.5 hours in a Baron. I'm a big recurrent training person and usually manage to fly for 1 day with my instructor every 90-120 days. I have a LOT of cross country time and have truly used the SR22 as a traveling machine. In 2014, I flew 140 hours.

We are moving to downtown Chicago. I plan on keeping the plane at KGYY. My typical missions will be:

KGYY - KBLM - NJ to see family
KGYY - KLEE - FL to see family
KGYY - KEYW - the big mission, at least 1x per month. Down to Key West where I keep my boat.

MOST of these will be with 1 or 2 people, but I'd like to be able to do Key West with 4 and bags.

SO...the limiting mission will be KGYY - KEYW. I'd like to be able to do that with 800 lbs of bags and pax, only make 1 stop , and do it in around 5 hours with neutral winds. I also feel like I need pressurization and weather radar to be the most comfortable and to improve dispatch rate. I have been flying Southern FL a LOT this past summer...anything I can do to make that easier is helpful.

Meridian or JetProp is THE perfect plane for me (well, payload may be an issue), but I can't swing the budget.

Budget cap is $550k ALL in , including any upgrades and initial training etc.

I really have it narrowed down to a Mirage or a Baron 58p.

I've considered:

421 - Too many MX unknowns and just too much plane to not be flying ALL the time to handle emergencies etc.

Meridian/JetProp - too much $

Aerostar - unknown to me

The Baron, I'm worried about MX; it being a VERY old airframe, complexities and currency with re: to multi engine, running costs (2 engines etc), resale (Id have to get a really expensive one relatively speaking to get upgraded avionics, interior etc), handling an engine out emergency appropriately.

The Mirage, I'm worried about engine failure. Other than that, it's the perfect plane.

Leaning towards the mirage..flying that for 2 years - ish and moving to jetprop or meridian for more peace of mind re: engine failure.

Gun to my head right now...I'd get the Mirage, and then be REALLY REALLY ****ed off when I had an engine failure and be wishing for that damn second engine.

Thoughts, advice??
 
I would join Beechtalk and PM a guy named Don Lawrenz. He is a 58P expert and does purchase/operational consulting. He has helped many BTers get a good pressurized Baron (key being GOOD) and helped them operate it as efficiency as possible.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I would join Beechtalk and PM a guy named Don Lawrenz. He is a 58P expert and does purchase/operational consulting. He has helped many BTers get a good pressurized Baron (key being GOOD) and helped them operate it as efficiency as possible.
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Yes, great suggestion on Beechtalk. There are a couple nice Aerostars listed in the For Sale section that are worth a look (I have no direct knowledge of either but stated specs are good and are way inside your budget)
 
Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I've belonged at Beehctalk for a while and twin Cessna and MMOPA. All to do the due diligence on the 58p, Mirage, and 421 etc.

Great resources all around.

Only issue is...ask on Beechtalk and it's a Baron you need, ask on twin cessna and it's a 421 etc etc :)
 
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A 340 is more comparable to a P-Baron rather than the 421.
 
SteveinNC said:
Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I've belonged at Beehctalk for a while and twin Cessna and MMOPA. All to do the due diligence on the 58p, Mirage, and 421 etc.

Great resources all around.

Only issue is...ask on Beechtalk and it's a Baron you need, ask on twin cessna and it's a 421 etc etc :)
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Of course, but you said you've already narrowed it down to a Mirage or 58P. I would buy a 58P given those choices. First you have 650 HP vs. 350, huge in weather. More useful, systems redundancies, etc. Mostly, you can buy a 58P very reasonably right now. It will certainly burn more fuel, but the purchase price delta is large enough that it won't matter.

The other thing that may or may not matter, a 58P fits in a standard 40' hangar.
 
If I were looking to do that trip, and were you, I'd go for a WLAC-1 or a Turbine C210

Here's a White Lighting for sale

http://www.aviationclassifieds.com/advertise-68976-1-0-2011+White+Lightning+WLAC+1+
Can't find the picture on that site, but here's what one looks like

White%20Lightning-1.jpg


200kts at 11gph of 100LL

Or a turbine C210

210kts at 20gph of Jet A Prist, 900nm with a 1500lb payload, plus turbine reliability. FIKI, pressurized and A/C

pic_101184_4_large.jpg


http://www.aircraft24.com/turboprop/cessna/p210-silver-eagle--xi101184.htm


Here's another one
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...GLE/1980-CESSNA-P210-SILVER-EAGLE/1174337.htm


Both the turbine 210 and the WLAC-1 are in your budget, I'd go with the turbine 210, exceeded all your specs and is a tried and true working airframe with all the advantages of a big boy turbine aircraft, and it burns Jet A :yes:
 
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SteveinNC said:
I had posted in another thread (some time ago now) about upgrading my current ride (SR22). Now, my situation has changed and I will most definitely be getting something different within the next 6 months. Looking to make sure I'm not missing something.

Me - Private/IR pilot with 600 hours (580 in my SR22). I have about 1.5 hours in a Baron. I'm a big recurrent training person and usually manage to fly for 1 day with my instructor every 90-120 days. I have a LOT of cross country time and have truly used the SR22 as a traveling machine. In 2014, I flew 140 hours.

We are moving to downtown Chicago. I plan on keeping the plane at KGYY. My typical missions will be:

KGYY - KBLM - NJ to see family
KGYY - KLEE - FL to see family
KGYY - KEYW - the big mission, at least 1x per month. Down to Key West where I keep my boat.

MOST of these will be with 1 or 2 people, but I'd like to be able to do Key West with 4 and bags.

SO...the limiting mission will be KGYY - KEYW. I'd like to be able to do that with 800 lbs of bags and pax, only make 1 stop , and do it in around 5 hours with neutral winds. I also feel like I need pressurization and weather radar to be the most comfortable and to improve dispatch rate. I have been flying Southern FL a LOT this past summer...anything I can do to make that easier is helpful.

Meridian or JetProp is THE perfect plane for me (well, payload may be an issue), but I can't swing the budget.

Budget cap is $550k ALL in , including any upgrades and initial training etc.

I really have it narrowed down to a Mirage or a Baron 58p.

I've considered:

421 - Too many MX unknowns and just too much plane to not be flying ALL the time to handle emergencies etc.

Meridian/JetProp - too much $

Aerostar - unknown to me

The Baron, I'm worried about MX; it being a VERY old airframe, complexities and currency with re: to multi engine, running costs (2 engines etc), resale (Id have to get a really expensive one relatively speaking to get upgraded avionics, interior etc), handling an engine out emergency appropriately.

The Mirage, I'm worried about engine failure. Other than that, it's the perfect plane.

Leaning towards the mirage..flying that for 2 years - ish and moving to jetprop or meridian for more peace of mind re: engine failure.

Gun to my head right now...I'd get the Mirage, and then be REALLY REALLY ****ed off when I had an engine failure and be wishing for that damn second engine.

Thoughts, advice??
Click to expand...

Late model 421-C, hands down, learn how to operate it correctly for efficiency and durability and the geared engines will give you the advantage. If you fly it with a "I didn't buy this plane to go slow." it will eat your lunch. If you fly it at 210kts, it will be your lowest cost to operate outside a P Baron. If a P Baron fits, it's a good deal, but if you fly with passengers a lot on long trips, the potty on the 421 will outweigh the cost benefits operating the P-Baron. The P-Baron has a 10,000 hour pumpkin clause as well, at 10,000 hours, it is over, that's life limit on the TC.
 
Henning said:
Late model 421-C, hands down, learn how to operate it correctly for efficiency and durability and the geared engines will give you the advantage. If you fly it with a "I didn't buy this plane to go slow." it will eat your lunch. If you fly it at 210kts, it will be your lowest cost to operate outside a P Baron. If a P Baron fits, it's a good deal, but if you fly with passengers a lot on long trips, the potty on the 421 will outweigh the cost benefits operating the P-Baron. The P-Baron has a 10,000 hour pumpkin clause as well, at 10,000 hours, it is over, that's life limit on the TC.
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I think the 340 with a Ram conversion is more for less with his mission.
 
"if you fly with passengers a lot on long trips, the potty on the 421 will outweigh the cost benefits operating the P-Baron."

with the potty...do you think a 421 c could do kgyy to keyw non stop with 800 lbs of pax and bags?

And, how exactly does that potty work anyway?? Is it one of those chemical ones etc? you need to empty it after every flight or??
 
The potty stop is the big thing. Even in a fast aerostar, it's going to be hard for you to make that trip without bringing along a few wide mouth Gatorade bottles.
 
SteveinNC said:
"if you fly with passengers a lot on long trips, the potty on the 421 will outweigh the cost benefits operating the P-Baron."

with the potty...do you think a 421 c could do kgyy to keyw non stop with 800 lbs of pax and bags?

And, how exactly does that potty work anyway?? Is it one of those chemical ones etc? you need to empty it after every flight or??
Click to expand...

Nothing in your range is going 1100 miles with 800 lbs in the cabin.
 
James_Dean said:
Nothing in your range is going 1100 miles with 800 lbs in the cabin.
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Yeah...I didn't think so. I wasn't planning on that anyway. Does look like it would do non stop with just two of us though. Which is a nice option. Only made possible due to the potty for my wife.

Still want to know how that potty works.
 
What I read is he was ok making a stop to Key West. 5 hours no toilet is a hassle. 2-3 is no prob. Not sure I want to sit in anything moving for 5 hours except maybe a train, with a dining car and lounge. Also tankering 5 hours of gas can be a hassle. I'd find somewhere in the middle with a nice restaurant and cheap gas.
 
James_Dean said:
A 340 is more comparable to a P-Baron rather than the 421.
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340 is not a money saver over a 421 and you give up the potty and the real aisle, no Wide Oval cabin on the 340. Just slow the 421 down to 210kts and it's the best value in pressurized cabin recip twins, right now the 425 may have that status for turbine twin.
 
James_Dean said:
Nothing in your range is going 1100 miles with 800 lbs in the cabin.
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Guess you missed my post about the turbine C210.

Well it'll do 900-950nm.

And realistically no one wants to take a dump in a small plane port potty infront of others anyway. It's going to be a one stop if just to stretch shy of doing it in a Lear or something.

Also I wouldn't recommend a piston twin to a guy with very little multi time.

A turbine 210 is easy as dirt to fly, once he learns startup, temp/trq, and shutdown.
Way more reliable compared to some small piston twin, better systems for weather with the turbine and bleed air.

And a logical a easy progression from a SR22.
 
Anyone have a feel for how hard the transition is to a 421 from a Cirrus SR22? My perception is that it's practically the most complex piston engine aircraft to fly.

And, frankly..maybe the most complex period...given that turbine engine management is easier.

Concerned about that AND being able to always be on my game for engine out.
 
James331 said:
Guess you missed my post about the turbine C210.

Well it'll do 900-950nm.

And realistically no one wants to take a dump in a small plane port potty infront of others anyway. It's going to be a one stop if just to stretch shy of doing it in a Lear or something.

Also I wouldn't recommend a piston twin to a guy with very little multi time.

A turbine 210 is easy as dirt to fly, once he learns startup, temp/trq, and shutdown.
Way more reliable compared to some small piston twin, better systems for weather with the turbine and bleed air.

And a logical a easy progression from a SR22.
Click to expand...

A turbine 210 has a useful load of 1300-1500 lbs. It will burn 30+ Gph real world to do 200 kts. I don't think it will go 900 miles carrying anything more than a skinny pilot, his 90 lb girlfriend, and a toothbrush.
 
SteveinNC said:
Anyone have a feel for how hard the transition is to a 421 from a Cirrus SR22? My perception is that it's practically the most complex piston engine aircraft to fly.

And, frankly..maybe the most complex period...given that turbine engine management is easier.

Concerned about that AND being able to always be on my game for engine out.
Click to expand...

No, the Aerostar is, with the Twin Commander series comes in a really close second, and on a plane by plane basis often wins. The 421 is a very forgiving twin, especially with the VGs installed, I'm pretty sure they eliminate Vmc issues on all the twin Cessnas by dropping it below stall speed. The geared engines allow you to produce your horsepower with lower cylinder pressures, and that is what creates heat and stress. The slow long bladed props also gain efficiency, plus the fuel dynamic issues of gasoline and a 5+ inch piston is more optimized to 3400-3600 rpm while staying at safer pressure levels. The reciprocating mass doesn't start seeing design limits until past 5000 rpm, so at 3400 LOP putting out 58%-65% power are running fat dump and happy and will run like that for a 1000 hrs straight as long as you feed it fuel.

Don't be afraid of a 421, Is it a lot to step into? Yes it is, but it s manageable with the correct attitude and actions which from what you write you appear to have. Will it take some more extensive training than minimums? Yes it will, it will require a higher level of vigilance on your part to manage well. Coming out of an SR-22 though, you are likely used to that level of training required,or near so, so the step up is a step up, but you have already taken a similar step and finished with confidence, so the likelihood of you completing this step is good as well. Nothing is impossible if you go about it with the correct attitude.
 
SteveinNC said:
Anyone have a feel for how hard the transition is to a 421 from a Cirrus SR22? My perception is that it's practically the most complex piston engine aircraft to fly.

And, frankly..maybe the most complex period...given that turbine engine management is easier.

Concerned about that AND being able to always be on my game for engine out.
Click to expand...

A guy on the twin cessna and beechtalk boards with 100 hours in a 421 who transitioned out of an A36 just posted his story about losing one at 400 ft. Good read.

FWIW, I just jumped to a 310 out of a Saratoga with the thought of a 400 series in a few years.
 
@iHenning - Thanks for that thoughtful reply. You've given me a lot to think about. I appreciate that.

@Eggman - Will look for that thread ASAP! thanks.
 
James331 said:
Also I wouldn't recommend a piston twin to a guy with very little multi time.

A turbine 210 is easy as dirt to fly, once he learns startup, temp/trq, and shutdown.
Way more reliable compared to some small piston twin, better systems for weather with the turbine and bleed air.

And a logical a easy progression from a SR22.
Click to expand...

Well, there's no way to earn multi-time without flying one. I'm sure the 421 is probably about the most complex piston twin out there (along with Aerostar/Twin Commander mentioned above), but if you learn in one I don't see why it would make a lot of difference as long as he flies it regularly and keeps current with procedures and such. I've got no turbine or muti-time, so I am just playing devil's advocate a bit here.
 
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Consider what charter companies are using. Generally the best balance of comfort/performance/operating cost

I see a whole lot of 58 Barons. Many used ones out there with updated avionics, air conditioning, FIKI, Radar. With 600+ HP and oxygen you can easily get up to the mid teens if needed.

In the pressurized piston class, lots of 421's.
 
Is it worth stepping up to any of these planes discussed if you truly plan on getting into another plane in 2 years? I don't know enough about the performance of the SR22 compared to these but it seems like a fair amount of work to buy and sell a plane plus transaction costs to do something temporary.
Of course I'm biased because a turbo prop single is my "someday" plane! :)
 
Sam D said:
Is it worth stepping up to any of these planes discussed if you truly plan on getting into another plane in 2 years? I don't know enough about the performance of the SR22 compared to these but it seems like a fair amount of work to buy and sell a plane plus transaction costs to do something temporary.
Of course I'm biased because a turbo prop single is my "someday" plane! :)
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It's a decent point Sam. However there are a couple of factors.

1. It is a jump from 170 to 200 (or even 210 ish). that's not insignificant.
2. Pressurization and radar will greatly increase my dispatch rate.
3. My current SR22 has ZERO ice protection. Not the best for Chicago.

If I plan on actually flying down to Key West regularly...the current SR22 I have will just not fit the bill.

A turboprop is really the plane for me...that's for certain, however...I just can't swing the acquisition cost right now. Even if I could, not sure I want to spend 700k and up to get one. Who knows...if I got a 421 I might be set for the rest of my flying days anyway.
 
Thanks for the recap. I currently fly a Lance and think about this step often!
 
James_Dean said:
A turbine 210 has a useful load of 1300-1500 lbs. It will burn 30+ Gph real world to do 200 kts. I don't think it will go 900 miles carrying anything more than a skinny pilot, his 90 lb girlfriend, and a toothbrush.
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Well it holds about 100gal so lets say 602lbs fuel, the RR is going to burn in the 20gph range, 1500 payload, that leaves just under 900lbs for people and stuff, OP needed 800, and good range.

A turbine will fly higher and hold its power better at altitude, I also wouldn't want to do super long IFR/IMC/Ice/High Alt legs with cantankerous piston pounder twin.

Add to that the simplicity, smoothness and, high and hot capabilities, availability and price of JET A, WORKING reputation the 210 has earned, and most importantly, ease of transition from the SR22... its the most logical plane mentioned.

I've flown pistons and turbines, for trips like this guy is planning, with family aboard, at night, IMC, Ice and into the FLs, Id rather book a ticket on kayak then take a small overly complex piston single or twin, turbine = peace of mind.

I've seen nice turbine silver eagle C210s go for 500k or less, seems like a easy choice to me :dunno:
 
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James331 said:
Well it holds about 100gal so lets say 602lbs fuel, the RR is going to burn in the 20gph range, 1500 payload, that leaves just under 900lbs for people and stuff, OP needed 800, and good range.

A turbine will fly higher and hold its power better at altitude, I also wouldn't want to do super long IFR/IMC/Ice/High Alt legs with cantankerous piston pounder twin.

Add to that the simplicity, smoothness and, high and hot capabilities, availability and price of JET A, WORKING reputation the 210 has earned, and most importantly, ease of transition from the SR22... its the most logical plane mentioned.

I've flown pistons and turbines, for trips like this guy is planning, with family aboard, at night, IMC, Ice and into the FLs, Id rather book a ticket on kayak then take a small overly complex piston single or twin, turbine = peace of mind.
Click to expand...

Jet A is 6.8 ppg, so that'd be 680 lbs fuel, right?
 
@James331 - A few things re: the 210.

I don't think I can get one in my price range. The few I've seen on Controller with prices are much higher than my budget.

I'm also really not a huge fan of the 210. I have no real logical justification on that other than not being a high wing guy and not loving the non club seating.

By all accounts you're right that a turboprop is what I really need....if budget were no option. But , if I were to do that...it would be a jetprop conversion of a Mirage I think. Not a 210.

The 210 appears to be a bit cheaper...but still not in my budget

As for booking a ticket on Kayak instead. I have the nice option of really picking my weather windows. I never HAVE to get to Key West on any given day etc. Also, there are zero direct flights from anywhere to Key West (Other than Miami)...so total time, cost etc is about the same flying 2 people commercial as it is flying myself.

Plus..I like to fly myself! :)
 
SteveinNC said:
@James331 - A few things re: the 210.

I don't think I can get one in my price range. The few I've seen on Controller with prices are much higher than my budget.

I'm also really not a huge fan of the 210. I have no real logical justification on that other than not being a high wing guy and not loving the non club seating.

By all accounts you're right that a turboprop is what I really need....if budget were no option. But , if I were to do that...it would be a jetprop conversion of a Mirage I think. Not a 210.

The 210 appears to be a bit cheaper...but still not in my budget

As for booking a ticket on Kayak instead. I have the nice option of really picking my weather windows. I never HAVE to get to Key West on any given day etc. Also, there are zero direct flights from anywhere to Key West (Other than Miami)...so total time, cost etc is about the same flying 2 people commercial as it is flying myself.

Plus..I like to fly myself! :)
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I hear ya,

There is also a turbine Bo conversion but I don't think any are going to be pressurized.

http://www.controller.com/list/list.aspx?catid=8&Manu=BEECHCRAFT&MDLGrp=36+BONANZA

Yeah, that 210 was kinda my only good suggestion. You could do it in a 400 series or a Baron, I wouldn't, but others do.
 
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James331 said:
Well it holds about 100gal so lets say 602lbs fuel, the RR is going to burn in the 20gph range, 1500 payload, that leaves just under 900lbs for people and stuff, OP needed 800, and good range.

A turbine will fly higher and hold its power better at altitude, I also wouldn't want to do super long IFR/IMC/Ice/High Alt legs with cantankerous piston pounder twin.

Add to that the simplicity, smoothness and, high and hot capabilities, availability and price of JET A, WORKING reputation the 210 has earned, and most importantly, ease of transition from the SR22... its the most logical plane mentioned.

I've flown pistons and turbines, for trips like this guy is planning, with family aboard, at night, IMC, Ice and into the FLs, Id rather book a ticket on kayak then take a small overly complex piston single or twin, turbine = peace of mind.

I've seen nice turbine silver eagle C210s go for 500k or less, seems like a easy choice to me :dunno:
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree. I might be a bit biased as I haul my family of seven around in a 310. YMMV.
 
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