(UPDATE-BOUGHT A PLANE)Airplane NEWB - May need a plane for business,help me find the best option

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Jared Kornelsen, Aug 12, 2018.

  1. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not according to me, but according to IRS. Not sure if you’re just being dense or salty, but yes, business travel expenses are business expenses, whether in a car or plane.

    If your plane is purchased for majority business use, then learning to operate it is a valid business expense.

    I’m speaking from firsthand knowledge.

    Consult an aviation tax advisor.
     
  2. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

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    Sorry, bunch of BS.
    I very much doubt that you consulted anybody, or that person knew anything about the tax laws, AOPA once wrote an article on this very topic, they quote specific IRS regulations, to make long story short it is virtually impossible to deduct pilot’s license expense from your taxes, regardless of circumstances. Actually by the same token an attorney can’t deduct the cost of acquiring the law degree, the very same regulation applies.

    (the article was written by the practicing aviation attorney)
    https://pilot-protection-services.a...ruary/25/tax-deductibility-of-flight-training

    BTW, my instructor once told me he once tried to deduct the cost of his IFR rating, it made sense to him since he was already a commercial pilot so aviation was already his business - he was told no way.

    You can however deduct some costs related to maintaining “proficiency” as a pilot, the article explains the details.


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    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  3. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    I looked at DA40s. The only things that kept me away were seat comfort and useful load. Range is decent. It'll be fine if you're just hopping around Texas
     
  4. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Oh, on the 182's the newer ones have an automatic wastegate now so you cant overboost them.

    Whats wrong with the seats in the DA40?
     
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  5. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers
    I've only flown 2002-2003 models, which I believe are considered the 'older' models now.
    The seats on these aren't horrible, but not cushy either.
    What I don't like is that they aren't adjustable, however, the visibility over the cowl is great, so no need for height adjustment for me, and probably none others except the most vertically challenged. The rudder pedals/brakes are adjustable, and that part works well. You could use cushions for some adjustment. I don't feel that need personally.
    They have a slight recline to them, which is comfy, if you like that. I actually prefer the Cessna style more upright, but it's fairly minor difference.
    The stick position is great for me, and most instruments/controls are easy to reach.
    I have read from others that they felt the seats were maybe too rigid or something, and thus uncomfortable.
    DA40's shouldn't be too hard to find if you call around or browse some FBO websites, and get a lesson in one with a CFI. Great way to start.

    You mentioned a dirt/grass strip in the OP. Others may chime in on the DA40 in regards to that. I have no experience there...but it wouldn't probably be my first choice.
     
  6. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Starting slow and trading up is a good idea.

    If you absolutely must go straight into the 170-knot class, get an SR22 and be religious about training (including all COPA recommendations) and personal minimums. I say that because you won't have to worry about retractable landing gear in the SR22, but a plane that fast can get you into trouble fast, and the SR22 had an atrocious safety record early on because of that, which has improved dramatically thanks to both Cirrus and COPA.

    However, given your desire for six seats in the future, it sounds like you would be trading up in either case, so I would lean back towards the 182 or DA40.

    It's easy to think about speed as being a big deal, but let's look at it in real-world terms. Your average speed is going to be about 10 knots slower than your cruise speed because you need to spend a little time climbing to cruise altitude (which happens at a slower speed) and on average you will have a slight headwind (because even a direct crosswind has a headwind component when you turn to correct for it). So, figure a C182 or DA40 will average 130 knots, and the SR22 will average 160. On your usual 250nm trip, the C182/DA40 will get you there in 1:55:23, while the SR22 will get you there in 1:33:45, saving you about 21 minutes. Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

    Nothing wrong with grass or dirt in the DA40, as long as you remove the wheel pants. Same for the SR22. Both of them have wheel pants that extend lower than Cessna or Piper style wheel pants, which helps them with speed and efficiency but leads to the potential for easy damage on unpaved runways. At least on the DA40, they're pretty easy to install and remove, so it's not too big a deal to pull them off if you want to head to a grass strip that day.
     
  7. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Don’t get anything turbo unless you plan on going in the mountains. It’s not necessary.

    They just aren’t comfortable. That varies by person obviously, so ymmv
     
  8. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don’t know what to tell you. I see the article you linked to, and it was written several years ago. Perhaps tax laws have changed. I’m passing along advice I got from my aviation tax/legal team. My plane is also used in a leasing operation, so maybe there’s something different about that than other business.

    Questioning my truthfulness as you did is just total douchebaggery.
     
  9. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    What would be better to learn in, a variation of the v tail Bonanza or Mooney M20? Or dont even think about it?
     
  10. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. Mainly make sure you 1) have a CFI who's onboard with ab-inito (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_initio) training and 2) be prepared for insurance cost so to be higher initially. It will take longer to get to your solo and PP, but the plus is you'll be learning in the kind of plane you plan to fly.
     
  11. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27921369/1977-beechcraft-v35b-bonanza

    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27659201/1970-beechcraft-v35b-bonanza

    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26468353/1974-beechcraft-v35b-bonanza

    Those look pretty good. Would you stay away from the one with annual due in November and only a low hour STOH?

    I read up on the Turbo Normalizing system and its quite intriguing. Sounds like a really good system and much better than a factory turbo system with the longevity factor. I still wonder though how much a total overhaul would be on one with that system vs factory non turbo.
     
  12. easik

    easik Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don't know how deep your pockets are but a Cirrus would be expensive to buy/own. There are other comparable alternatives that are lower cost. They may not have the Cirrus cool factor, but certainly cost effective.
    First hings first though, you need to get your ticket: Safe estimate: $12k - $15k
    If your plane is primarily for business travels, I'd keep the number of seats between 2 and 4. It's great to take the family flying but if most of your flights are solo, no need to spend the extra money. Also consider going in on a fractional ownership.
     
  13. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Well I've talked to insurance for awhile... Seems like I'm being guided by them as well as most of yall to a Cessna 172/182/206 variant. I'm very interested in a 2004 and newer 182 turbo but $300,000 or so is pretty steep... Is it worth it to get the updated exterior and interior along with the g1000?
     
  14. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    If you’re going to learn to fly in a turbo with a g1000 panel, make sure you do a 1500 mile solo during your training. Anything less would be a waste of your time.
     
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  15. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    so just a pretty and incredibly expensive "toy"? (the g1000)
     
  16. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

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    Worth it?. Only you and your pocket book can be a judge of it. I suggest you start flying first (I understand at the moment you are a wannabe pilot) - your point of view may change radically after you get your license. I fly behind the G1000 panel and it is a wonderful tool that could make you a safer pilot. And it is an easy system to learn.
     
  17. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    I'd look at a Q or R model if you're planning on carrying 4 people. Mine has 200lbs of useful load over what Cessna advertises for the new 182s. Being able to top off the tanks (88 usable) and load up is nice.
     
  18. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bonanzas are easy to land. Some of the airline ab-initio programs (Lufthansa, Sabena, JAL) use(d) F33s or A36s for their initial training. I am not aware of any training program that used Mooneys for initial training.

    There are a couple of obstacles to using a Bo for initial training:
    - insurance, if you can get it, wil be painful. You may need to go to a specialty broker who deals with deathtraps like jet warbirds to find a company to cover you.
    - you won't find many instructors experienced and willing to start a noob in a complex plane. Introducing the gear with flight #1 changes the process and what the CFI needs to focus on.
    - everyone will tell you how you are a smoking hole waiting to happen because 'a Bonanza just gets away from you the second you don't pay attention' and other OWTs.


    If either a M20 or a Bo is what you need, get your PPL in someone elses 172 or Warrior and start in the complex plane the moment you have that plastic card in hand. Use the transition training towards getting your cross-country hours so you can then start your IFR in the complex plane. That has been done before.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
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  19. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    I recommend learning how to fly in an airplane rather than on the internet. Go get started, or the paralyzing perfectionism of wanting to get just the right plane for your mission and learn how to fly in it will keep you from ever getting into the air.

    It's also concerning to see these two posts so close together:

    Just go flying in whatever you can and worry about what kind of plane to buy later. You don't want to be like the people who have bought Cessna 414s or Premier jets thinking they had found the perfect plane for their mission, took one trip in them, and then spent the next 5 years trying to unload them before the fixed costs and annual inspections broke the bank.
     
  20. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Hello again everybody. After a lengthy closing process with Thanksgiving in there too we closed on a plane December 3rd and it delivered the 4th.

    We bought a 1967 Mooney M20F from Jimmy at All American Aircraft out of Spring Branch, TX. We are moving to Seminole, TX soon so I got a CFI from there locally, he did'nt have enough Mooney time for Insurance so he had to receive 5 hours dual instruction and do 10 landings to a stop to get green lit to be my instructor. Jimmy arranged for Bob Cabe to deliver the plane to us and give Tim ( the CFI ) the training.

    It was a really great experience and I cant say enough great things about Bob, he was fantastic and it was a joy sitting in the back and watching him teach, I learnt A LOT myself even though it wasn't hands on for me.

    We left Seminole and did a landing in San Angelo, from there we went to Kerrville and did multiple landings there. From Kerrville landed at Hondo, Castroville, and then made the 10th landing at Kestrel in Spring Branch. The vacuum pump had sheered early on so Ron at Fisher Aviation was waiting for us when we flew in, taxied straight to his shop and I estimate less than an hour and he had it fixed up and ready to go. He was fantastic, he also did the prebuy and all the repairs prior to closing.

    I will post pictures and try and upload some videos to youtube.

    Bob heaped praise on Tim for how he performed and had no worries with me training for my PPL in the Mooney with Tim as my CFI.
     
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  21. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    I got some pics of the Mooney factory and of a new Mooney being tested.
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Sweet airplane, congrats!!
     
  23. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Great! Congratulations! How fitting to get a Mooney and land it at Kerrville. :)
     
  24. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Thank you and yes that was really cool to be able to get a pic of the plane with the factory in the background.
    Heres a video of Bob landing the plane in Seminole when he delivered it.

     
  25. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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  26. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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  27. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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  28. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Get your PPL and IFR, look at a PA24
     
  29. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Lol maybe read the last couple of posts?
     
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  30. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Lol
     
  31. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Congratulations !

    Glad we couldn't talk you out of this. A M20F sounds like a great choice for your mileage based mission and the area where you will operate it.

    Have you talked to an accountant familiar with the ins and outs of business aircraft yet ? The IRS is not where you want to go off things you read on the internet or advice from an accountant who deals mostly in fork-lifts and combines. If you dont have the plane held in an entity (corporation, LLC, trust), consider keeping a separate checking account to pay all aviation related expenses. Keep accurate records on the purpose of each flight, reference project numbers or bids in your ledger, keep names of customers and associates you met on a particular trip so you can substantiate the business purpose if someone comes and asks down the line. While any training that establishes an initial qualification (e.g. PPL or IR) is ineligible for a business deduction, if you use your plane predominantly for business, you may be able to deduct some cost of recurrent training. Again, don't go what sgoti tells you but follow the advice of an accountant familiar with the business use of general aviation aircraft.

    Be careful. Don't put yourself in situations where you HAVE to be somewhere come hell or high water. Be quick to cancel a flight and hop in the car at 3am to make a sales meeting. Always carry a roll-up bag with a change of clothes in the plane and land short if the weather is iffy. You'll get to meet some of the friendliest people at unplanned stops. Don't push your fuel range, don't push the weather. Have fun while doing it.
     
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  32. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Thank you, thats some solid advice. My CPA really seems to know his stuff. Besides him I've talked to another CPA and also an aviation tax consultant who I believe is well known. We formed and bought it under an LLC like we were advised to do.

    It will be great to get started with the training soon and hopefully knock it out quick and get in the air when we want... weather permitting of course.
     
  33. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    SHOW ME THE MOONEY!! oh wait, u did that already...….congrats!!!!!!!!!
     
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  34. Twin_Flyer

    Twin_Flyer Cleared for Takeoff

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    Congratulations!!! Keep up posted on your training and good luck. Oh, welcome to the world of ownership...:goofy:
     
  35. Scott@KTYR

    Scott@KTYR Pattern Altitude

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    Congrats!!
     
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  36. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-Flight

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    There were too many doctors who decided to buy a VTail BO and learn in it and too many of them drove them into the ground. I’m a devotee of VTails, had a S35, loved it but wasn’t my first but in final analysis it was my best / favorite


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  37. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Congrats,enjoy.
     
  38. Jared Kornelsen

    Jared Kornelsen Pre-Flight

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    Quick update: have not been able to train as fast as I’d like for various reasons but I do have around 9 hours flight time now and it’s going very well. My last lesson I landed the plane with little to no help from my instructor. We have been doing power off and power on stalls, ground reference maneuvers, steep turns etc so now we will be getting into landings a lot more. I have no frame of reference but I feel perfectly comfortable with training in the Mooney, it’s going well.
     
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  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As you've probably heard a million times: Stay on speed. The slick Mooney with its nose-up attitude on the ground means that it's very unforgiving of sloppy approaches. DO NOT add 5-10 knots because you don't like stalls, because you're probably going to end up with a landing accident instead.

    * Stay on the correct speed, corrected for weight if you're significantly lighter than MGTOW
    * If you're going to add any speed for gust factor, make sure you're only adding half of the *headwind component* of the gust factor. IE with 10G20 at 60º off runway heading, you would only add 2-3 knots.
    Use full flaps, every time.
    Do not try to rescue a bounced landing - Just go around. You were probably too fast and hit the nosewheel first...

    If you do those things, once you get used to the sight picture, she'll land as sweet as anything.

    Have fun! :)
     
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