Upchit as 3rd class medical

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RhinoDrvr

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RhinoDrvr
A local FBO is trying to deny me the ability to fly because I use a Navy Medical Clearance (upchit) vice a 3rd class medical. Is there anything in the FARs that I could show them to clear this up?

They say it's an issue because they're a Part 121 school? Insurance perhaps?

This adds insult to injury since they charge $170/Hr for a 172S. I'm just trying to take my old man flying while I am home on leave away from my local FBO. These clowns are the only local show around unfortunately....
 
RhinoDrvr said:
A local FBO is trying to deny me the ability to fly because I use a Navy Medical Clearance (upchit) vice a 3rd class medical. Is there anything in the FARs that I could show them to clear this up?

They say it's an issue because they're a Part 121 school? Insurance perhaps?

This adds insult to injury since they charge $170/Hr for a 172S. I'm just trying to take my old man flying while I am home on leave away from my local FBO. These clowns are the only local show around unfortunately....
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Where are you located?

Have you contacted the local FSDO?
 
The FBO should be directed to 14 CFR 61.23(b)(9):
(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate--
...
(9) When a military pilot of the U.S. Armed Forces can show evidence of an up-to-date medical examination authorizing pilot flight status issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and--
(i) The flight does not require higher than a third-class medical certificate; and
(ii) The flight conducted is a domestic flight operation within U.S. airspace.
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The fact that they conduct training under Part 141 is irrelevant unless you're trying to enroll in a Part 141 training program. What their insurer says is another story entirely, and there's no way to know about that without seeing their policy.

FWIW, when I was on active flying status in the military (Navy, ANG, and Air Force), we could get a FAA Second Class medical issued by the Flight Surgeon when we took our annual flight medical exam (NFO's as well as Aviators). For future reference, you might ask if this is still possible.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The FBO should be directed to 14 CFR 61.23(b)(9):
The fact that they conduct training under Part 141 is irrelevant unless you're trying to enroll in a Part 141 training program. What their insurer says is another story entirely, and there's no way to know about that without seeing their policy.

FWIW, when I was on active flying status in the military (Navy, ANG, and Air Force), we could get a FAA Second Class medical issued by the Flight Surgeon when we took our annual flight medical exam (NFO's as well as Aviators). For future reference, you might ask if this is still possible.
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Ron, only if the military flight doc has the FAA certification to also be an FAA AME. Not all flight docs did that paperwork, I ran into a couple during my career that could not issue the FAA medical. This was before they changed the CFR to accept the Military issued medical for a third class.
 
"Up chit." I haven't heard that in awhile. :)
 
BillTIZ said:
Ron, only if the military flight doc has the FAA certification to also be an FAA AME. Not all flight docs did that paperwork, I ran into a couple during my career that could not issue the FAA medical. This was before they changed the CFR to accept the Military issued medical for a third class.
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Unfortunately, 61.23(b)(9) is valid only for pilots, not NFO's/navigators, and even then is valid only at Third Class. I know not all flight surgeons were FAA-authorized, but there was always one on the base (even in the ANG), and that kept me medically certified for 15 years.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, 61.23(b)(9) is valid only for pilots, not NFO's/navigators, and even then is valid only at Third Class. I know not all flight surgeons were FAA-authorized, but there was always one on the base (even in the ANG), and that kept me medically certified for 15 years.
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Yea, I could not figure that one out. As a Navigator I had to pass the same AF medical standards as pilots, but could not use it for civilian flying. :mad2:
 
RhinoDrvr, not RhinoRidr. :D

No disrespect to those with two anchors, some of the greatest Naval Aviators I've ever known. Seriously.
 
catmandu said:
RhinoDrvr, not RhinoRidr. :D
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I caught that the first time, which is why I didn't raise the issue until later. And if the OP has any need for a Second Class, the "upchit" won't do, anyway, even for a one-anchor aviation officer.
 
Is there a difference between the physical a WSO takes compared to a pilot?
 
Thanks for the input guys. I'll bring the CFR with me and hope it isn't an insurance requirement.

Flight physicals for pilots and NFO's are the same except for eyesight requirements. I know some WSO's who fly civil aircraft with up chits, not 100% sure of the legality though.

I'll eventually have to get my 2nd class done when I get my CFI checkride lined up (Ron, I'm in your neck of the woods so I might end up with Frank Phillips or another Baltimore FSDO guy) but I haven't checked if our flight docs can do FAA medical or not.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
I'll eventually have to get my 2nd class done when I get my CFI checkride lined up
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Why?

61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate:
(i) When exercising the pilot-in-command privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate;
(ii) When exercising the second-in-command privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate in a flag or supplemental operation in part 121 of this chapter that requires three or more pilots; or
(iii) When serving as a required pilot flightcrew member in an operation conducted under part 121 of this chapter if the pilot has reached his or her 60th birthday.
(2) Must hold at least a second class medical certificate when exercising:
(i) Second-in-command privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate in part 121 of this chapter (other than operations specified in paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of this section); or
(ii) Privileges of a commercial pilot certificate; or
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate;
(ii) When exercising the privileges of a recreational pilot certificate;
(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
(iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate and acting as the pilot in command;
(v) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate and serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate; or
(vii) When performing the duties as an Examiner in an aircraft when administering a practical test or proficiency check for an airman certificate, rating, or authorization.
 
If you're paying out of pocket you won't need a class II for CFI. If you use CH33 GI Bill they will require a class II when applying for a Part 141 commercial program.
 
Good gouge on the medical. I'll stick to a 3rd class then.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FBO should be directed to 14 CFR 61.23(b)(9):
The fact that they conduct training under Part 141 is irrelevant unless you're trying to enroll in a Part 141 training program. What their insurer says is another story entirely, and there's no way to know about that without seeing their policy.

FWIW, when I was on active flying status in the military (Navy, ANG, and Air Force), we could get a FAA Second Class medical issued by the Flight Surgeon when we took our annual flight medical exam (NFO's as well as Aviators). For future reference, you might ask if this is still possible.
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The insurance will accept what the FAA accepts, they don't like to write rules, it makes them liable.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
Flight physicals for pilots and NFO's are the same except for eyesight requirements. I know some WSO's who fly civil aircraft with up chits, not 100% sure of the legality though.
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I am sure, and it's not -- the regulation is specific to pilots. However, I'm going to bring that to AFS-800's attention for consideration as an administrative change to that regulation.

I'll eventually have to get my 2nd class done when I get my CFI checkride lined up
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You don't need a Second Class to take the CFI practical test or even to exercise its privileges -- just Third, and your upchit will do fine for that. Only if you're piloting for hire without instructing (e.g., ferrying your trainee's plane) must you have a Second Class.

(Ron, I'm in your neck of the woods so I might end up with Frank Phillips or another Baltimore FSDO guy)
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Frank does initial CFI's for the FSDO when they're overloaded, but only if nobody at the FSDO can do it within two weeks or so. If you end up with Frank, contact me off-line for the "gouge" on him.

but I haven't checked if our flight docs can do FAA medical or not.
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Worth asking if you think you'll need to exercise your Commercial Pilot privileges.
 
Henning said:
The insurance will accept what the FAA accepts, they don't like to write rules, it makes them liable.
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Not sure how they'd become liable for damages if they set higher standards than the FAA, but the fact is they do it all the time, whether it's as small as "five hours in type" or as large as annual recurrent training at one of a specified set of training providers.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure how they'd become liable for damages if they set higher standards than the FAA, but the fact is they do it all the time, whether it's as small as "five hours in type" or as large as annual recurrent training at one of a specified set of training providers.
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or "fly from the left seat".

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
 
Ron Levy said:
I am sure, and it's not -- the regulation is specific to pilots. However, I'm going to bring that to AFS-800's attention for consideration as an administrative change to that regulation.
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You're my new hero! I'm an Air Force F-15E WSO and CFI on the side. It always slightly irked me that my AF pilot bros get a free Third Class, while my flight doc's two fingers earned me nothing.
 
hook_dupin said:
You're my new hero! I'm an Air Force F-15E WSO and CFI on the side. It always slightly irked me that my AF pilot bros get a free Third Class, while my flight doc's two fingers earned me nothing.
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Tell (ask) your flight doc to get the FAA certification and turn those two fingers into a Class II. I only had one tour where the flight doc did not have FAA certification.
 
BillTIZ said:
Tell (ask) your flight doc to get the FAA certification and turn those two fingers into a Class II. I only had one tour where the flight doc did not have FAA certification.
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I haven't met one that does yet... Seems they all just want to get out and go to Orthodo residency. Since the DoD started contracting out specialties, the general practice types don't have many places to go up to.
 
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